Israeli Soldiers Kill Peace Activists

[Hassan]

[quote name='StMichael' date='31 May 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1275348387' post='2121610']
Please lets not get into misinformation that comes from the leftist sites like dailykos.

It is obvious there are 2 sides to this and appears that the Israelis engaged because these boats could have been carry anything other than what was stated. Israel no longer has the US to count on, so I can see them ensuring their own safety.

Of course, even if they are 100% correct, those who hate Israel will condemn them like a bunch of parrots like we see with those attacking Arizona.
[/quote]
Does Russia have a right to send FSB special operations units to forcibly board ships operated by third party's heading for Georgia while in international waters?

[BG45]

I'm glad we've had biased reports from both sides in this thread already. It saves me the time of doing the media bias comment I intended to make when I saw the misleading thread title. For people with barely any arms in theory, they sure injured a lot of Israeli commandos. Let's not forget that these people left Cyprian waters without permission, at least last I had heard the government of Cyprus told them they weren't allowed to use the island to sail for Gaza; that alone would set off alarm bells that they might be carrying something that shouldn't reach the territory of a terrorist organization that has fired thousands of rockets into Israel against civilian population centers, and ran Fatah out at gunpoint. An organization that runs shows such as Pioneers of Tomorrow, where children are taught songs about the glory of becoming suicide warriors against the Jews, and martyred a blatant Mickey Mouse ripoff as a victim of the "Israeli terrorists".

As to Hassan's question, the world would raise a stink like it is now, but no one would do anything. If the Russians had actionable intelligence and didn't intend to kill anyone going in, then sure. I would expect my own government to stop "aid" ships going to Mexico if the drug cartels there began to launch thousands of rockets over the next decade into the United States.

[Hassan]

I like turtles.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 May 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1275346399' post='2121591']
The last time the Georgian military tried to reassert control over South Ossetia.
[/quote]
Oh, an actual legitimate government as opposed to a terrorist group.

[Hassan]

[quote name='BG45' date='31 May 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1275353309' post='2121743']


As to Hassan's question, the world would raise a stink like it is now, but no one would do anything. If the Russians had actionable intelligence and didn't intend to kill anyone going in, then sure. I would expect my own government to stop "aid" ships going to Mexico if the drug cartels there began to launch thousands of rockets over the next decade into the United States.
[/quote]


Your response is evasive and does not fit the scenario I asked about. Did the Israeli's have 'actionable intelligence' that this ship was caring anything other than what it advertised? Were no passengers on board killed? Since the answer to both of these questions is no your answer falls short.

The Russia political class believes quite seriously that America has tried to foster a 'color revolution' inside Russia. I'm relieved that when Russia uses this as a pretense to board American civilian ships in international waters heading for Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic state, Poland, et cetera you will find this a reasonable course of action comparable with international law and norms.

I'm not asking how the world would respond, I'm asking how you all would respond. What if a few dozen American civilians were killed in international waters approaching Georgia in unclear circumstanced as they, according to the Russians, resisted the boarding with kitchen knives and pipes against armed Russian special operation forces who were backed by gun ships, helicopters, and had no compelling reason to view boarding the ship when they did as a matter of urgent national security? What if the Russians still produced no evidence that the ship was carrying anything other than Humanitarian supplies to Georgia?

I'm willing to bet a tidy sum that you and most of people here would justifiably ask what the hell was Russia doing thinking it had any business being on that ship in the first place.


I don't know why you put 'aid' in quotes. I have yet to see one report to suggest that this ship was carrying anything other than humanitarian supplies. If they were, I'm willing to bet all the rum in my room that the Israeli's would have publicized that fact by now.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' date='31 May 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1275353458' post='2121746']
Oh, an actual legitimate government as opposed to a terrorist group.
[/quote]

If by 'legitimate government' you mean a highly corrupt ruling class and President increasingly exercising arbitrary and authoritarian power against its own people, then yes. However it is an ally of ours, by Caucasus governments it is a pretty good one, even if that is a pretty low bar to clear, and we do send them aid. If American civilians are taking a ship of humanitarian aid to Georgia, to help them rebuild after Russia ground them into the dirt because Mikheil Saakashvili and Vladimir Putin hate each other, and Russia boards them in international waters as they are heading to Georgia, are you ok with it?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 May 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1275353323' post='2121744']
I like turtles.
[/quote]


Several times this post has received a +1 only to have someone cancel it out. I fail to see why someone feels the need to make turtles the victims of a political disagreement.

[Hassan]

[img]http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/i/23346/original/turtles1.jpg[/img]

[BG45]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 May 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1275354148' post='2121756']
Your response is evasive and does not fit the scenario I asked about. Did the Israeli's have 'actionable intelligence' that this ship was caring anything other than what it advertised? Were no passengers on board killed? Since the answer to both of these questions is no your answer falls short.

The Russia political class believes quite seriously that America has tried to foster a 'color revolution' inside Russia. I'm relieved that when Russia uses this as a pretense to board American civilian ships in international waters heading for Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic state, Poland, et cetera you will find this a reasonable course of action comparable with international law and norms.

I'm not asking how the world would respond, I'm asking how you all would respond. What if a few dozen American civilians were killed in international waters approaching Georgia in unclear circumstanced as they, according to the Russians, resisted the boarding with kitchen knives and pipes against armed Russian special operation forces who were backed by gun ships, helicopters, and had no compelling reason to view boarding the ship when they did as a matter of urgent national security? What if the Russians still produced no evidence that the ship was carrying anything other than Humanitarian supplies to Georgia?

I'm willing to bet a tidy sum that you and most of people here would justifiably ask what the hell was Russia doing thinking it had any business being on that ship in the first place.


I don't know why you put 'aid' in quotes. I have yet to see one report to suggest that this ship was carrying anything other than humanitarian supplies. If they were, I'm willing to bet all the rum in my room that the Israeli's would have publicized that fact by now.
[/quote]

Would I be upset? Sure. Would that change anything? Not at all. The governments of the world do not rush to war in the modern era. Globalization has seen our economies too linked to rush into such things.

As for this aid flotilla, there were Americans on board, [url="https://www.freepalestinemovement.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93:us-delegation-headed-for-gaza-with-international-aid-flotilla"]including a former U.S. Ambassador and a survivor of the 1967 USS Liberty incident[/url]. You might recall that incident, one of our spy ships was nearly sunk by Israel, claiming a misunderstanding despite the large American flag...which is almost ironic, because had they sunk it and we admitted it was a spy ship, they would have been perfectly in the right under international law.

As for my reply, I proposed a hypothetical, which you changed by killing dozens of civilians in it, in my hypothetical I said that if there was no one intended to be killed, it would be fine. Unless you're saying that you believe the Israelis went in to kill a number of civilians as you link my hypothetical to what happened? Also, Russia doesn't maintain a standing blockade of Georgia, along with a neighboring nation; whereas Israel and Egypt both blockade Gaza.

Why place "aid" in quotation marks? Because even if all this flotilla carried was aid supplies, it was a blatant attempt to goad Israel into embarrassing military action. It was a publicity stunt, and there was likely no real attempt to help the people of Gaza. More of a, "if we get through, then we help people, if not, we make Israel look bad and make our point". Another reason to put "aid" into quotation marks in my hypothetical, was to point out that without inspecting it, anything could be going into my hypothetical Mexico.

Edited June 1, 2010 by BG45

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 May 2010 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1275354523' post='2121762']
If by 'legitimate government' you mean a highly corrupt ruling class and President increasingly exercising arbitrary and authoritarian power against its own people, then yes. However it is an ally of ours, by Caucasus governments it is a pretty good one, even if that is a pretty low bar to clear, and we do send them aid. If American civilians are taking a ship of humanitarian aid to Georgia, to help them rebuild after Russia ground them into the dirt because Mikheil Saakashvili and Vladimir Putin hate each other, and Russia boards them in international waters as they are heading to Georgia, are you ok with it?
[/quote]
If the aid were trying to break through a blockade set up by Russia to protect herself from terrorist activity, then yes.

[southern california guy]

I'm confused. Does Israel run Gaza? Or are they blockading a sovereign country that they don't run?

[Hassan]

[quote name='BG45' date='31 May 2010 - 09:16 PM' timestamp='1275354978' post='2121772']
Would I be upset? Sure. Would that change anything? Not at all. The governments of the world do not rush to war in the modern era. Globalization has seen our economies too linked to rush into such things. [/QUOTE]

Well, Russia also abandoned the aggressive Eurasianist impulses of the mid to late 90's that helped prompt those two disastrous wars in Chechnya. Instead the Kremlin had adopted a pragmatic neo-Eurasianism that would simply entail a greater economic shift towards east asia and independent (from the West), though non-militaristic, foreign policy.

That was generally the wisdom of the scholarly journals and academic commentators until Russian tanks came busting across the Russian-Georgian boarder and Sarkozy had to pursuade Putin from pursuing his dearly held wish to hang Saakashvili by a part of his anatomy well below his neck.

Geopolitical norms are always influx and nothing is static. Russia wouldn't dare pursue expansionist policies. Except when they invaded Chechnya. But that was isolated and Chechnya is technically part of Russia. Until they invaded Chechnya again. But again, isolated. And then yes, Russia become more aggressive about flying military aircraft into Georgian aircraft but that was just posturing. I mean Georgia is a US ally and quasi-client state and Russia would dare pull that stuff they did with Chechnya with a sovereign nation that is also an ally of the US and prospective NATO member. As you say, nations don't rush to war. It was all a show, until Russian tanks entered South Ossetia and kept on going.

Compare this with Clinton's response to overly aggressive posturing by the Chinese towards Taiwan. Baby steps and faint foreshadowing can quickly sprint forward in international relations.

Had the US informed Putin that any incursion into Georgian terratory would be treated as an attack on the United States I'm willing to bet that Russia's reaction would have varied considerably and Putin would have been far less cavalier in invading. I'm not suggesting that would have been in our interests I'm just rejecting the international fatalism your post suggests.

If the US pledged to give Iran full access to nuclear technology/material supplies and our national body of knowledge of the subject if they did not lift the blockade on Gaza immediately, I'm willing to bet that the blockade would be gone tomorrow. Obviously that would be an insain thing to do, however that is just an extreme example at the ways we can manipulate Israeli behavior.

[QUOTE]As for this aid flotilla, there were Americans on board, [url="https://www.freepalestinemovement.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93:us-delegation-headed-for-gaza-with-international-aid-flotilla"]including a former U.S. Ambassador and a survivor of the 1967 USS Liberty incident[/url]. You might recall that incident, one of our spy ships was nearly sunk by Israel, claiming a misunderstanding despite the large American flag...which is almost ironic, because had they sunk it and we admitted it was a spy ship, they would have been perfectly in the right under international law.

As for my reply, I proposed a hypothetical, which you changed by killing dozens of civilians in it, in my hypothetical I said that if there was no one intended to be killed, it would be fine. Unless you're saying that you believe the Israelis went in to kill a number of civilians as you link my hypothetical to what happened?[/QUOTE]

Fair enough.

[QUOTE]Also, Russia doesn't maintain a standing blockade of Georgia, along with a neighboring nation; whereas Israel and Egypt both blockade Gaza.

[QUOTE]Why place "aid" in quotation marks? Because even if all this flotilla carried was aid supplies, it was a blatant attempt to goad Israel into embarrassing military action. It was a publicity stunt, and there was likely no real attempt to help the people of Gaza.[/QUOTE]

I'm willing to bet a cargo ship full of humanitarian supplies wouldn't hurt.

Yes, it was a political move. It was not arbitrary, it was a political tactic pursuing the political end of getting Israel to lift the blockade on humanitarian supplies. Call it a publicity stunt if you want. Publicity is inherent to most political moves. I don't see how this invalidates it. If they wanted to bring publicity to the fact that Israel's blockade does not just keep out weapons but also desperately needed humanitarian supplies then this is certainly one way to go about it.

[QUOTE]More of a, "if we get through, then we help people, if not, we make Israel look bad and make our point".
[/quote]

They make Israel look bad for refusing to allow them to bring humanitarian supplies to a area which is in desperate need of humanitarian relief because Israel is using its blockade as a tool to collectively punish the civilian population of Gaza. They goal wouldn't be to generically make Israel look bad but to pressure Israel to stop an illegal and immoral tactic by showing that Israel is doing a bad thing.

Maybe the tactics and even the goal is wrongheaded, but the publicity element is not simply an empty attempt to make Israel look bad for the mere sake of making Israel look bad.

When the US military lets reporters see the atrocities brought upon Iraw by Shia death squads the goal isn't to make these groups look bad for the sake of them looking bad. It is to make them look bad so they will cease their tactics to prevent a drop in recruitment or to dissuade people from sympathizing with the group in the first place.

The same logic is working here and both are legitimate tactics to achieve a reasonable political goal.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' date='31 May 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1275357297' post='2121797']
If the aid were trying to break through a blockade set up by Russia to protect herself from terrorist activity, then yes.
[/quote]

There is a difference between using a blockade to protect yourself by blocking the inflow of weapons and materials that directly aid a terrorist group from attacking your civilian population and using a blockade to do that plus keep humanitarian supplies out so you can use collective punishment against the civilian population living within the area. One is a legitimate way of achieving security the other is probably self destructive in the long run and troubling in terms of international law and a basic sense of morality.

[Hassan]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='31 May 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1275359216' post='2121819']
I'm confused. Does Israel run Gaza? Or are they blockading a sovereign country that they don't run?
[/quote]

Gaza and the West Bank were captured by Israel from Jordan (I think) in the 1967 war. They are usually referred to as 'Occupied Territories". Legally, a country cannot incorporate land captured during war into itself (to deter wars of territorial expansion under some other pretense I guess). Israel has been slowly absorbing both Gaza and the West Bank into Israel proper through settlements for the last few decades. This process is halting in the west Bank and there are promising moves there towards statehood. In Gaza, Israel removed all settlements and claimed to have relinquished sovereignty over Gaza a few years ago, however under international law they still have sovereignty over Gaza because they have total or practically total control over what goes in and out (I don't remember the exact legal formula, but that's about right).

That's about how I recall it off hand. It's kind of up there in legal and political limbo with taiwan, which is kind of a country but not really but acts a lot like a country but officially affirms that it is one with China and someday China will be one again but seems to always be moving away from reincorporation with China but nobody knows exactly what the hell it is usually the official term I hear is to describe it as a 'political entity' (what that means substantively I do not know).

[Galloglasses' Alt]

Someone explain this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded[/media]

[Hilde]

[url="http://tpn.vg.no/intervju/index.php?Inr=2257"]Some answers from the Israeli embassy in Norway.[/url] I don't know about you, but the coverage in the media here seems to be rather biased in what it posts. I'm not saying I'm picking sides, I just get sceptical due to the way things are portrayed.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Hassan' date='01 June 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1275438903' post='2122395']
Gaza and the West Bank were captured by Israel from Jordan (I think) in the 1967 war. They are usually referred to as 'Occupied Territories". Legally, a country cannot incorporate land captured during war into itself (to deter wars of territorial expansion under some other pretense I guess). Israel has been slowly absorbing both Gaza and the West Bank into Israel proper through settlements for the last few decades. This process is halting in the west Bank and there are promising moves there towards statehood. In Gaza, Israel removed all settlements and claimed to have relinquished sovereignty over Gaza a few years ago, however under international law they still have sovereignty over Gaza because they have total or practically total control over what goes in and out (I don't remember the exact legal formula, but that's about right).

That's about how I recall it off hand. It's kind of up there in legal and political limbo with taiwan, which is kind of a country but not really but acts a lot like a country but officially affirms that it is one with China and someday China will be one again but seems to always be moving away from reincorporation with China but nobody knows exactly what the hell it is usually the official term I hear is to describe it as a 'political entity' (what that means substantively I do not know).
[/quote]

Thank you, that explains a lot more of the situation to me.

Why is Israel blockading Gaza? Was there recent fighting?

[Jesus_lol]

19 year old american citizen was killed in the boarding, by 4 gunshots to the head and one to the chest.




[url="http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/03/american-reportedly-killed-gaza-flotilla-raid/"]http://www.foxnews.c...-flotilla-raid/[/url]

[quote name='Fox News']
A State Department official says one of the nine people killed when Israeli commandos raided a Gaza-bound flotilla of pro-Palestinian activists on Monday was a 19-year-old man with dual U.S.-Turkish citizenship.

The official identified the victim as Furkan Dogan, who was believed to have been residing in Turkey.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the matter has not been officially confirmed by the U.S. government.

The official said the victim had been shot but it was not clear who shot him. He was among eight of the dead being mourned at a funeral in Istanbul Thursday.

More exact circumstances of the activists' deaths are expected to be made clear in a ballistics examination that will take about a month to complete, Anatolia news agency reported Thursday.

An official from the Turkish Islamic charity that spearheaded the campaign to bust the blockade on Gaza identified the U.S. citizen as 19-year-old Furkan Dogan, originally from the central Turkish town of Kayseri.

Dogan, who held a U.S. passport, had four bullet wounds to the head and one to the chest, Omer Yagmur of the Foundation of Humanitarian Relief (IHH), told Anatolia.

The nine victims were all aboard the Turkish ferry, Mavi Marmara, the lead ship of the aid flotilla, where most of the violence occurred in Monday's pre-dawn raid by Israeli forces.[/quote]




and if i get flak about using leftist sources this time i might have to kill someone. you are forewarned.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' date='01 June 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1275441538' post='2122429']
Someone explain this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded[/media]
[/quote]
The peace activists are using a new violent form of non-violent resistance.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='03 June 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1275600264' post='2123290']
The peace activists are using a new violent form of non-violent resistance.
[/quote]

they unlawfully boarded a ship sailing under a foreign flag against their will in international waters, i'd say self defense is fairly reasonable. unless you think pulling a gun on a home invader is wrong.