Rastafarianism

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1277513433' post='2134315']
St. John Damascene in his "Founts of Knowledge"



You failed to complete the quote. To leave it at "He says that there is one God, creator of all things" implies that Muhammad acknowledges the One True God, but St. John actually said "He says that there is one God, creator of all things, who has neither been begotten nor has begotten" therefore illustrating that Muhammad rejected Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

St. John continued to speak ill of Islam:
[/quote]

I didn't complete the quote because I didn't feel it was relevant. Of course Islam doesn't accept Christ, at least explicitly. No reasonable person would say otherwise. And of course he speaks ill of Islam. There is a multitude of things to speak ill of. It is a very evil and violent heresy. Does that change my opinion that they somehow (whether I can understand it or not) worship the true God? No it does not. In fact, the reason I posted this section of Damascene is because he says particularly "these [b]used[/b] to be [b]idolators[/b]" and yet later after consulting the Bible and an (heretic) Arian monk, "devised his own [b]heresy[/b]." Perhaps I am alone in placing emphasis on a theologians choice of wording, but I do find it signficant that Damascene says that they were once idolators and then through Mohammed became heretics.

[Apotheoun]

The true God is not a mental abstraction that a man can find by his own powers of intellect. There is no such thing as "god in general."

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1277513517' post='2134316']What? I didn't call you ANY names. Please don't accuse me of doing so.
[/quote]

I apologize I read something into it that maybe I shouldn't.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1277513775' post='2134319']
When Latin Catholics use the word Deus in referring to the Holy Trinity are they talking about Jupiter or are they talking about the true God revealed by Christ?
[/quote]
Probably Jupiter. Darn those infidel Latin Catholics!

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1277513865' post='2134321']
The true God is not a mental abstraction that a man can find by his own powers of intellect. There is no such thing as "god in general."
[/quote]

Perhaps not, but I think it is in Acts and Romans (as well as the First Vatican Council, that said that the true God can be known by natural means, apart from revelation.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1277513832' post='2134320']
I didn't complete the quote because I didn't feel it was relevant. Of course Islam doesn't accept Christ, at least explicitly. No reasonable person would say otherwise. And of course he speaks ill of Islam. There is a multitude of things to speak ill of. It is a very evil and violent heresy. Does that change my opinion that they somehow (whether I can understand it or not) worship the true God? No it does not. In fact, the reason I posted this section of Damascene is because he says particularly "these [b]used[/b] to be [b]idolators[/b]" and yet later after consulting the Bible and an (heretic) Arian monk, "devised his own [b]heresy[/b]." Perhaps I am alone in placing emphasis on a theologians choice of wording, but I do find it signficant that Damascene says that they were once idolators and then through Mohammed became heretics.
[/quote]
Muslims are not idolaters in the strict sense because they do not make idols to worship any longer. That said, neither an idolater nor a heretic offers true worship to God, because the only true act of worship is the Paschal Mystery of Christ.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1277514091' post='2134327']
Perhaps not, but I think it is in Acts and Romans (as well as the First Vatican Council, that said that the true God can be known by natural means, apart from revelation.
[/quote]
A grasp of an abstract notion of divinity through the divine powers in creation is not faith. It has no salvific value, that is, unless you wish to call yourself a Pelagian.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1277514138' post='2134328']
Muslims are not idolaters in the strict sense because they do not make idols to worship any longer. That said, neither an idolater nor a heretic offers true worship to God, because the only true act of worship is the Paschal Mystery of Christ.
[/quote]
To clarify for me, does that exclude Protestant Christians?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1277513832' post='2134320']
I didn't complete the quote because I didn't feel it was relevant. Of course Islam doesn't accept Christ, at least explicitly. No reasonable person would say otherwise. And of course he speaks ill of Islam. There is a multitude of things to speak ill of. It is a very evil and violent heresy. Does that change my opinion that they somehow (whether I can understand it or not) worship the true God? No it does not. In fact, the reason I posted this section of Damascene is because he says particularly "these [b]used[/b] to be [b]idolators[/b]" and yet later after consulting the Bible and an (heretic) Arian monk, "devised his own [b]heresy[/b]." Perhaps I am alone in placing emphasis on a theologians choice of wording, but I do find it signficant that Damascene says that they were once idolators and then through Mohammed became heretics.
[/quote]

Does one have to be a believer in the One True God first in order to be labeled a heretic?

[HisChildForever]

According to 1 John 2:22-23, Muhammad is an Antichrist. The god of Islam would also be considered an Antichrist for rejecting Christ.

[Resurrexi]

With the holy Catholic Church, I maintain that "God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; 'for the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Romans 1:20)" (First Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dei Filius[/i]).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 June 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1277514250' post='2134331']
To clarify for me, does that exclude Protestant Christians?
[/quote]
Yes. Protestants have not maintained the priesthood or the Eucharistic sacrifice, which is the sole acceptable act of worship. Being imperfectly united to the Church through baptism does not make Protestantism "true" or the services of Protestant communities a form of true worship.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1277514443' post='2134338']
Yes. Protestants have not maintained the priesthood or the Eucharistic sacrifice, which is the sole acceptable act of worship. Being imperfectly united to the Church through baptism does not make Protestantism or the services of Protestant communities true worship.
[/quote]
That's what I thought. Thanks.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 June 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1277514374' post='2134336']
With the holy Catholic Church, I maintain that "God, the beginning and end of all things, can be known with certitude by the natural light of human reason from created things; 'for the invisible things of Him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made' (Romans 1:20)" (First Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dei Filius[/i]).
[/quote]
Is this grasp of God in the abstract faith?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1277514138' post='2134328']
Muslims are not idolaters in the strict sense because they do not make idols to worship any longer. That said, neither an idolater nor a heretic offers true worship to God, because the only true act of worship is the Paschal Mystery of Christ.
[/quote]

agreed. I don't see how that applies to the discussion though. I'm saying Islam offers imperfect (quite significantly imperfect) worship to the True God. Not that they give true worship to the true God.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1277514532' post='2134342']
Is this grasp of God in the abstract faith?
[/quote]

"But the Catholic Church professes that this faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, is a supernatural virtue by which we, with the aid and inspiration of the grace of God, believe that the things revealed by Him are true, not because the intrinsic truth of the revealed things has been perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived" (First Ecumenical Vatican Council, [i]Dei Filius[/i]).

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 June 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1277514211' post='2134329']
A grasp of an abstract notion of divinity through the divine powers in creation is not faith. It has no salvific value, that is, unless you wish to call yourself a Pelagian.
[/quote]

Again, irrelevant. I'm not arguing for any salvific value. I don't believe Islam to be saved because of their flawed worship of God. Only that they do offer worship to the True God, no matter how perverted. I'm quite likely one of the stronger proponents of EENS on the phorum, so it wouldn't make sense for me to say that Islam's flawed worship of God has any salvific value, because I don't believe it does.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1277514662' post='2134346']
agreed. I don't see how that applies to the discussion though. I'm saying Islam offers imperfect (quite significantly imperfect) worship to the True God. Not that they give true worship to the true God.
[/quote]
What is imperfect worship? This is a concept that is nowhere to be found in the Holy Fathers.

It would be one thing if Islam were a pre-Christian religion which attempted to find the true God, even though true faith - like true worship - can only come from God, but that is not the case with Islam. Islam - as a religion - was founded in open opposition to the Christian faith. Mohammad explicitly denied the dogmas of the Incarnation and the Trinity, and there is simply no way to get around this historic fact.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='25 June 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1277514794' post='2134350']
Again, irrelevant. I'm not arguing for any salvific value. I don't believe Islam to be saved because of their flawed worship of God. Only that they do offer worship to the True God, no matter how perverted. I'm quite likely one of the stronger proponents of EENS on the phorum, so it wouldn't make sense for me to say that Islam's flawed worship of God has any salvific value, because I don't believe it does.
[/quote]

You believe that Muslims worship Jesus Christ, even though they and their god reject Him? Can you please explain your reasoning? I would like to see your opinion and explanation, not a quote.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='25 June 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1277514879' post='2134352']
You believe that Muslims worship Jesus Christ, even though they and their god reject Him? Can you please explain your reasoning? I would like to see your opinion and explanation, not a quote.
[/quote]

I think that, inasmuch as a Muslim intends to render adoration to the Creator and Lord of the all things, he adores God, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.