Black Christ

[StMichael]

Thank you for making this thread worthwhile. Love the term "headdesk."

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1284912829' post='2174568']
It's really bad when the [b][i]first page of a thread [/i][/b]is making me headdesk.
[/quote]

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1284904846' post='2174532']
So was the Virgin Mary. She looked very Spanish in the depiction on the tilma of Guadalupe.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

According to this book, Stern, she is mestiza looking: [url="http://syndetics.com/index.php?isbn=9780385527729/index.html&client=milwp&type=rn12"]My link[/url]

It's coauthored by an acknowledged scholar on Our Lady of Guadalupe. She's referred to as something.... "Morena" by the Mexicans too. Morenos are people of darker hues, although it can include white brunettes too.

The whole tilma thing, and the conversation, between what's his name... Jaun Diego? and the Virgin Mary is rather fascinating too. It's all stepped in Aztec meanings and that other Amerindian nationality Jaun was from.

In an era where anti-Catholics like to emphasize a narrative of Christianity = white intolerance and colonialism, the mestiza Virgin Mary counters with a much different narrative, one in which about the same number of Amerindians entered the Catholic Church as whites left it in Europe for the Reformation.

The problem with Catholics today is that they are content to allow others to create and propagate a narrative for them.

Learn from Black-Americans, they rewrote their narrative. Feminist have done the same. Not enough darker peoples throughout Latin America do this, however.

The Virgin Mary and Jesus were Hebrew. Some Hebrews were pagans (Moses had thousands of them slain for worshiping the Golden calf - the first combination of Pope and Inquisitor General). I'm not sure how the ancient Hebrew looked, but probably not like the Ashenkanazi (spelling?). It seems to me, many of the Jewish people today are similar to the Catholic Latinos. Many are essentially "mixed-race" and they come in different hues.

Jews = white, Arab, black Ethiopians.

Latinos = white, black, mulattoes, and mestizos.

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Wikitiki' timestamp='1284921790' post='2174624']
...Haven't Jesus and Mary both appeared to people to be of different races, usually a race close to the visionary/visionaries or a race the visionaries are used to seeing them as?
[/quote]

That's my understanding of Marian apparitions. I'm told - not sure how true - Mary appeared to the Rwandan children, forewarning them of a genocide to come, and "rivers of blood" (which literally came to pass), as a black woman.

[Micah]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284934007' post='2174704']
According to this book, Stern, she is mestiza looking: [url="http://syndetics.com/index.php?isbn=9780385527729/index.html&client=milwp&type=rn12"]My link[/url]

It's coauthored by an acknowledged scholar on Our Lady of Guadalupe. She's referred to as something.... "Morena" by the Mexicans too. Morenos are people of darker hues, although it can include white brunettes too.

The whole tilma thing, and the conversation, between what's his name... Jaun Diego? and the Virgin Mary is rather fascinating too. It's all stepped in Aztec meanings and that other Amerindian nationality Jaun was from.

In an era where anti-Catholics like to emphasize a narrative of Christianity = white intolerance and colonialism, the mestiza Virgin Mary counters with a much different narrative, one in which about the same number of Amerindians entered the Catholic Church as whites left it in Europe for the Reformation.

The problem with Catholics today is that they are content to allow others to create and propagate a narrative for them.

Learn from Black-Americans, they rewrote their narrative. Feminist have done the same. Not enough darker peoples throughout Latin America do this, however.

The Virgin Mary and Jesus were Hebrew. Some Hebrews were pagans (Moses had thousands of them slain for worshiping the Golden calf - the first combination of Pope and Inquisitor General). I'm not sure how the ancient Hebrew looked, but probably not like the Ashenkanazi (spelling?). It seems to me, many of the Jewish people today are similar to the Catholic Latinos. Many are essentially "mixed-race" and they come in different hues.

Jews = white, Arab, black Ethiopians.

Latinos = white, black, mulattoes, and mestizos.
[/quote]

True about Jews being mixed. My grandmother is Jewish but looks like every other white Canadian. However, Jesus descended from the Hebrew people, and scripture tells us his appearance was not out of the ordinary. Modern day descendants of Hebrews--Orthodox Jews who neither moved nor mixed with the diaspora--are almost identical with modern day Palestinians. Essentially they're the same stock.

Are you a history major? I haven't heard anyone else talk about the in-writing of narratives before. I'm writing a paper on that topic right now on the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest, tis tricky business..

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1284922504' post='2174627']
Yes, Jesus was Jewish. Which means he looks more like Osama bin Laden than not...
[/quote]


Oh God! that was funny!

[Chi Zhuzi]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1284935162' post='2174712']
True about Jews being mixed. My grandmother is Jewish but looks like every other white Canadian. However, Jesus descended from the Hebrew people, and scripture tells us his appearance was not out of the ordinary. [b]Modern day descendants of Hebrews--Orthodox Jews who neither moved nor mixed with the diaspora--are almost identical with modern day Palestinians. Essentially they're the same stock.[/b] [/quote]

I'm not in disagreement with you on that, Micah.

There's a computerized rendition of Jesus face from some facial forensic expert or whatever he was... taken from the Shroud of Turin. I think I may have glimpsed at the face of Jesus. The computer rendition had the face of the Shroud looking like a Lebanese or Palestinian.

The parish my mother attends has a modern style black Virgin Mary (and Jesus too I believe). Most the parishioners are Black-Americans and Eritrean immigrants from the Ge'ez Rite.

But the Black Madonna's and this Black Christ have longer histories in the societies they find devotion in. The Black Christ I presume originate partly as a response to the historical racism throughout Latin America. Were or are there other reasons why the Black Christ has devotees? Maybe so. I'm not sure for the Latinos the specific idea of race - as we frame it in the U.S. - is as important to their devotion to the Black Christ as we might be tempted to read into it. You know Catholicism has historically been culturally adaptive. Of course that has not been so in all cases. I believe the Portuguese persecuted the East Indian Church they found due to its lack of Latinzation. And perhaps the Jesuits excelled better than anyone in adapting the Gospel and Catholicism to new environments - from China to the Indians of Oregon Country to the Reductions of South America.

But the U.S. is a bit different. The issue of race here is a bit more antagonistic and important in many social ways. This is due to the history of hypodecent. What we call "The one Drop Rule." For example, take Brazil, a continental size country similar in the history immigration as the U.S.

In Brazil social class and not "race" distinguishes the differences in how one sounds when they speak, in tonal terms and vocabulary.

[quote]
Are you a history major? I haven't heard anyone else talk about the in-writing of narratives before. I'm writing a paper on that topic right now on the Native Americans of the Pacific Northwest, tis tricky business..
[/quote]

Naw, I'm a declared biology major who is going to flunk his Chem exam and class if he doesn't stop screwing around on the internet and this forum. LOL.


Peace.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1284921130' post='2174621']
Very nice, Ed. Micah, I do believe you should read this
[/quote]

I'm with you and Ed. Jesus was darkish skinned and spent too much time in the sun on the shores of Galilee, which made him a very diplomatic midway between black and white. Just making that up of course. Does it really matter? If you bear your cross and follow Jesus then all you have to do is look in the mirror and you will see him. I used to wonder why some people have visions of Mary, others see angels. I listen to the words of Jesus. It's all a faith thing! You will see or hear him how you believe you will. If you don't truly believe you can talk to Jesus, then you no doubt won't be able to and will think MI of those who claim they have. If Jesus appears as bread and wine for the purpose of faith then he will also appear as any nationality that a person imagines him to be. And it seems rather silly to quibble over such microscopic matters. Everyone knows God looks like Morgan Freeman LOL.

[Selah]

My Jesus picture is cooler

[Wikitiki]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284934202' post='2174706']
That's my understanding of Marian apparitions. I'm told - not sure how true - Mary appeared to the Rwandan children, forewarning them of a genocide to come, and "rivers of blood" (which literally came to pass), as a black woman.
[/quote]

Yep! Our Lady of Kibeho is said to have appeared to seven separate children. I think three of the visionaries' apparitions have been officially recognized by the Church. My favorite is one that sadly hasn't been recognized. A pagan boy, Emmanuel, met Jesus in a field, looking like any other Rwandan man, and He taught him everything about the faith.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1284940262' post='2174734']
Jesus was darkish skinned...
[/quote]

That's it... I'm too white to worship a dark-skinned Lord. I'm switching to Islam. Er, I mean Buddhism. I mean Confucianism. Um, Judaism? That probably won't work either. Ah... I'll worship Zeus.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1284940262' post='2174734']
Everyone knows God looks like Morgan Freeman LOL.
[/quote]

Everyone knows Morgan Freeman is Irish.

Edited September 21, 2010 by LouisvilleFan

[desertwoman]

I guess this is why in the old testament graven images are forbidden. We get caught up on the color of ones skin instead of the message.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Chi Zhuzi' timestamp='1284934202' post='2174706']
That's my understanding of Marian apparitions. I'm told - not sure how true - Mary appeared to the Rwandan children, forewarning them of a genocide to come, and "rivers of blood" (which literally came to pass), as a black woman.
[/quote]
[size="2"]
She did appear to Rwandan children at Kibeho, but the main visionary, Alphonsine, said: [/size][font="Arial"][size="2"]"The Virgin was not white as She is usually seen in holy pictures. I could not determine the color of Her skin, but She was of incomparable beauty." [/size][/font]

[url="http://www.michaeljournal.org/kibeho.htm"]http://www.michaeljo....org/kibeho.htm[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited September 21, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1284917101' post='2174594']
Dude w.e, racist accusations are just a trump card. Jesus was Jewish; its wrong to portray him as anything else. Period.
[/quote]


So, you know, Ancient Jews living in Palestine were um, Semitic, and way darker in completion than most Europeans. Jesus was a middle Easterner. Definitely closer to black than white.

And Jewish He was/is, does not mean a culture cannot portray Him according their subjective standard in arts.

[Wikitiki]

[quote name='desertwoman' timestamp='1285079214' post='2175066']
I guess this is why in the old testament graven images are forbidden. We get caught up on the color of ones skin instead of the message.
[/quote]
+1000000

Seriously, should we really be wasting our time with something as trivial as this?

[sixpence]

I think we all need to relax and listen to [url="http://s0.ilike.com/play#Kenny+Loggins:Some+Children+See+Him:151984:s28374975.8111608.14914861.0.1.35%2Cstd_471999165d03980f7b1c3cf410ffab2a"]this nice Christmas song....[/url]

No one is denying the Jesus was a Jewish man. We don't have any photos of Him, so any depictions are automatically inaccurate. As long as He is a human male, I think we are all set.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Wikitiki' timestamp='1285103568' post='2175148']
+1000000

Seriously, should we really be wasting our time with something as trivial as this?
[/quote]

On the other hand... I fear we can go so far in reacting against racism by downplaying race and ethnicity that a lot of what defines us culturally could be lost, especially in passing down what it means to be Nigerian, Italian, and Vietnamese in a country like the U.S. that attract so many immigrants.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1285124192' post='2175227']
On the other hand... I fear we can go so far in reacting against racism by downplaying race and ethnicity that a lot of what defines us culturally could be lost, especially in passing down what it means to be Nigerian, Italian, and Vietnamese in a country like the U.S. that attract so many immigrants.
[/quote]
Except for the fact that neither Nigerian, Italian, nor Vietnamese are races.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1285132470' post='2175242']
Except for the fact that neither Nigerian, Italian, nor Vietnamese are races.
[/quote]

Oxford-American Dictionary says they are:

race 2
noun
each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics : people of all races, colors, and creeds.
• a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group : we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then.

[Wikitiki]

Well, this thread is going the exact direction I had expected it to.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

I don't understand why people are getting so upset about Christ being portrayed as black.

[img]http://sathyasaibaba.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/second-coming-jesus-christ-parousia-second-advent.jpg[/img]

Looks pretty white to me, and yet no one complains.

[img]http://www.marys-touch.com/history/infant.JPG[/img]

Again, lily white.

[img]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/king.jpg[/img]

Again, white, and also dressed like an earthly king (yes, I know that Christ is the King of Creation, but I doubt God wears an expensive, earthly crown made of earthly precious metals...) The Bible makes it clear that Christ's family was at best lower middle class, and poverty and humility were part of His identity just as much as His Jewish heritage was--and yet no one complains about pictures like this...

Seriously guys, if you're going to complain, at least complain consistently. That is all.