Female Altar Servers

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1293923716' post='2195771']
I was an altar server for a few years, but when I got older, I also was a lector and eucharistic minister. One of the amazing things that comes from being an altar server is a new reverence for the Mass. I agree that there is much more "usefulness" of learning about the Mass for a boy- especially a young man discerning the priesthood.

But, I found great beauty in preparing the altar for our Eucharistic Lord. I think ideally they should be boys, but I'm not sure if we should exclude a young girl from serving the church (especially if she has a desire to do so... I am personally disheartened by kids who's parents have made them do it and express no love/reverence for the opportunity).

I do LOVEEEE something they are doing in our diocese. They're called Knights of the Holy Temple, and they are young men who have a true devotion and interest in serving at Mass. They also focus on daily prayer life and living by an "honor code". Many of them have gone on to be diocesan seminarians (and I think maybe a few of them are priests now). It makes serving "cool" for a high schooler again, I guess... and the little ones do look up to the older high school boys. [url="http://templeknight-org.ecatholicchurches.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=174"]http://templeknight-org.ecatholicchurches.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=174[/url] It's pretty awesome!!!!

Moral of the story- I'm also torn.
[/quote]
well, Altar Society anyone? you know, the ladies that actually took care of altar cloths and such for the parish? and what is better? to direct a young girl (who has a desire to serve) in an improper way or in a proper manner?

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293862426' post='2195651']
I will say that it is better for altar servers to be male rather than female. However, I am a lector and I don't do it for a "privilege" to be in the sanctuary. Don't get me wrong, it is a privilege. But in my example, the huge majority of my parish is old and unable to serve in any way. My mother brought me up telling me that it was an honor if a priest asked me to serve the Mass in any way. I won't altar serve unless the priest comes out into the church before Mass and asks me, in which case I feel the need to obey him. I lector because not many others in our Chuch will, not because I want to claim my position as a woman having equal rights as the male lectors.
I agree with your statements about the altar being an environment that better suits men, because Jesus appointed men as preachers in the first place. However, when the need arises, I don't feel that God will be upset if a woman had to take the place of an altar server, lector, or Eucharistic minister.
And believe me, I'd rather be in the pew worshiping during Mass anyways : )
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/amen.gif[/img]
[/quote]
well, that gets into a whole 'nother ball of wax about installed acolytes versus lay people reading the Scriptures.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1293925245' post='2195777']
Cardinal Arinze has a video with a section about this on youtube. He's quite against female alter servers for the same reason that you gave: Alter servers should be those thinking about the priesthood. I'm completely traditional and I adore keeping traditions like family traditions. It's a duty of mine, and other traditional Catholics, restore everything that was such as all male alter servers. Justly, it's unfair for women because, if they're alter servers, they might become close to the idea of priesthood and gain the desire of being a priest. We all know it's impossible for a woman to become a priest. I know of women that are now priests but they're obviously excommunicated.

However, alter servers are becoming harder to find. So, in the case where there's only a woman available, I'm not against it. If there's plenty of men available, then no, leave it to the men.
[/quote]
but train them properly!! please! so many parishes/priests provide no or very little training (actual training, not just go to the priest during such-and-such a time). such a sad, sad, situation.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293925846' post='2195779']
Let me challenge you a little bit. It isn't about a necessity of "bodies." You feel that you have this sense of obedience, but is it obedient to engage in an action that is unjustified? Or is it tacit approval and participation in an abuse? If you pastor asked you to do a dance in the Processional, would you do it, knowing that liturgical dance is strictly forbidden?[/quote]
or for example, if a priest ordered the faithful to not kneel for the Consecration, you [b]should[/b] disobey him.

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293925846' post='2195779']I find it hard to believe that so many men of the parish are aged or infirmed that they cannot assist at the altar, unless you assist at a nursing home. I think that your pastor has to do a better job of recuiting men. As an aside, that is what we are doing at my parish. While we have not reached that level yet, we are slowly moving toward the ideal that I proposed and support.[/quote]
i think more priests need to challenge boys to be protectors, to be knightly men.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293926334' post='2195786']Second, if you think that it is more appropriate for a male to serve, then why would you not promote that, wholeheartedly? [/quote]
and it would be a great way to catechize those who do not know better.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293943201' post='2195863']
the thing is, we have to be conscious that boys/men and girls/women are wired differently. gee, whodathunk it? if boys/men don't see that they are needed, they won't step up. and girls/women have a tendency to take over.

in other words, i agree with you. lol
[/quote]

This.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293942981' post='2195861']
whomever does it, i just wish they wouldn't wear tennis shoes or flip flops or other raggedy shoes. wear some decent dress shoes, for goodness sakes.
[/quote]
i harp on the servers at my home parish. i consistently say, "the only part of you that we can see (identifying, that is) is your shoes. why can't you wear something nicer?"

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1293943733' post='2195868']
This.
[/quote]
That.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293925846' post='2195779']
Let me challenge you a little bit. It isn't about a necessity of "bodies." You feel that you have this sense of obedience, but is it obedient to engage in an action that is unjustified? Or is it tacit approval and participation in an abuse? If you pastor asked you to do a dance in the Processional, would you do it, knowing that liturgical dance is strictly forbidden?

I find it hard to believe that so many men of the parish are aged or infirmed that they cannot assist at the altar, unless you assist at a nursing home. I think that your pastor has to do a better job of recuiting men. As an aside, that is what we are doing at my parish. While we have not reached that level yet, we are slowly moving toward the ideal that I proposed and support.

And honestly, you say that you feel that God won't be upset, how do you know? As you say, Jesus did appoint men to be preachers.

Again, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean that it is a best practice.
[/quote]


With all respect, I set up this thread for positive feedback, not to be "challenged" =/
If a priest asked me to do any of those things, I would NOT. Because they are strictly forbidden. However, the Catholic Church says its okay for girls to be altar servers, so I respect the teaching authority over my own opinions in times when it comes down to it.

I'm truly happy for your parish, and I wish my pastor would do more to encourage men to serve. There are alotttttt of elderly at my church. Old, Italian, stubborn and set in their ways, so they barely volunteer to help out. The truth is, my parish is suffering. I wish I could say otherwise. We only have one priest, we've cut down on the number of masses, and they've been discussing a merger with another local parish.
Altar servers don't preach to the parish community, so as far as Jesus only appointing men as preachers goes, that is still being respected.
Finally, I agree that the best and most ideal practice is for men to be altar servers. And if there comes a time in my parish that young men are encouraged to become involved in altar serving, I will happily stop altar serving for good. However, I think it is more respectful to have one girl altar server than to have none at all.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293945807' post='2195878']With all respect, I set up this thread for positive feedback, not to be "challenged" =/[/quote]
well, you're new and Cam just came back, but you should realize that he's like that. whether you like it or not. (i've been on the receiving end in the past too).

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293945807' post='2195878']I'm truly happy for your parish, and I wish my pastor would do more to encourage men to serve. There are alotttttt of elderly at my church. Old, Italian, stubborn and set in their ways, so they barely volunteer to help out. The truth is, my parish is suffering. I wish I could say otherwise. We only have one priest, we've cut down on the number of masses, and they've been discussing a merger with another local parish. [/quote]
that really, really stinks. i am very sorry to hear about that.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1293923716' post='2195771']
I was an altar server for a few years, but when I got older, I also was a lector and eucharistic minister.
[/quote]

Just a pet-peeve of mine, but the term "Eucharistic Minister" should only be reserved for ordained ministers because they are the normal/ordinary/regular ministers of the Eucharist. Acolytes or lay people who, under certain circumstances, happen to be filling in in the distribution of the Body and Blood of our Lord are more properly called "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" - [i]extra[/i]ordinary because they are not the normal or regular distributors of the Eucharist.

Also, someone may correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember, a lector is actually an office of one of the minor orders. These days, it is often used as a stepping stone to the permanent diaconate - being a lector is something that a person has been installed into. Readers at most parish Masses may be fulfilling the office of the lector by their actions, filling in as needed, but they are not lectors themselves.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1293986772' post='2195912']
Just a pet-peeve of mine, but the term "Eucharistic Minister" should only be reserved for ordained ministers because they are the normal/ordinary/regular ministers of the Eucharist. Acolytes or lay people who, under certain circumstances, happen to be filling in in the distribution of the Body and Blood of our Lord are more properly called "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion" - [i]extra[/i]ordinary because they are not the normal or regular distributors of the Eucharist.

Also, someone may correct me if I am wrong, but from what I remember, a lector is actually an office of one of the minor orders. These days, it is often used as a stepping stone to the permanent diaconate - being a lector is something that a person has been installed into. Readers at most parish Masses may be fulfilling the office of the lector by their actions, filling in as needed, but they are not lectors themselves.
[/quote]

sadly, it seems that no one knows the offices, much less what Mass is all about these days....

I miss the days when there was an altar rail, and a little gate to the Sanctuary that only the priest had the key for. Less traffic up in the Holy of Holies, and more definition of the laity and ordained ministers...there was never a blurring of those boundaries...

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293942981' post='2195861']
whomever does it, i just wish they wouldn't wear tennis shoes or flip flops or other raggedy shoes. wear some decent dress shoes, for goodness sakes.
[/quote]

Making me self conscious about my feet now....

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1293999871' post='2195942']
Making me self conscious about my feet now....
[/quote]
it just a pet peeve of mine, lol. i sound like a crotchety old woman. lol

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1294000087' post='2195943']
it just a pet peeve of mine, lol. i sound like a crotchety old woman. lol
[/quote]

haha I understand, I often where flip flops to Mass, but then that's the culture I grew up in here in Beach town.....I promise that I wear a nice button up with slacks otherwise : )


My pet peeve (among others) at Mass, are more about people leaving Church before the closing song has officially ended....

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294000500' post='2195946']
haha I understand, I often where flip flops to Mass, but then that's the culture I grew up in here in Beach town.....I promise that I wear a nice button up with slacks otherwise : )


My pet peeve (among others) at Mass, are more about people leaving Church before the closing song has officially ended....
[/quote]

You're right. If they really had good taste in "liturgical" music, they'd leave before the song had begun. We are not supposed to inflict physical penances upon ourselves on Sundays.

My other pet peeve (just two today) aside from inane "liturgical" music, is how the organist invariably insists upon playing out the ending of the song longer than the notes indicate, leading to a really awkward finish with everyone ceasing their singing at different times. Always a cacophony. They're probably leaving early because they want to avoid the agonizing finish they know is coming.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 2, 2011 by Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294002035' post='2195950']
You're right. If they really had good taste in "liturgical" music, they'd leave before the song had begun. My other pet peeve (just two today) aside from inane "liturgical" music, is how the organist invariably insists upon playing out the ending of the song longer than the notes indicate, leading to a really awkward finish with everyone ceasing their singing at different times. Always a cacophony. They're probably leaving early because they want to avoid the agonizing finish they know is coming.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

hahaha well that too.

I always miss the music at FUS's daily Mass(s?) when I come home.

Though, before I digress any further from the original topic, of which I am more or less indifferent too, I try to otherwise ignore my peeves and things other's do at Mass, because if I become critical of everything that everyone [b][i]else[/i][/b] is doing, then am I really there for community in communion with the Lord, or am I there to just rate everyone on their holiness?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294002288' post='2195951']
Though, before I digress any further from the original topic, of which I am more or less indifferent too, I try to otherwise ignore my peeves and things other's do at Mass, because if I become critical of everything that everyone [b][i]else[/i][/b] is doing, then am I really there for community in communion with the Lord, or am I there to just rate everyone on their holiness?
[/quote]

You'd make a rotten Pharisee.

~Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294002439' post='2195952']
You'd make a rotten Pharisee.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Good.

[Cam42]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293945807' post='2195878']
With all respect, I set up this thread for positive feedback, not to be "challenged" =/
If a priest asked me to do any of those things, I would NOT. Because they are strictly forbidden. However, the Catholic Church says its okay for girls to be altar servers, so I respect the teaching authority over my own opinions in times when it comes down to it.

Altar servers don't preach to the parish community, so as far as Jesus only appointing men as preachers goes, that is still being respected.
Finally, I agree that the best and most ideal practice is for men to be altar servers. And if there comes a time in my parish that young men are encouraged to become involved in altar serving, I will happily stop altar serving for good. However, I think it is more respectful to have one girl altar server than to have none at all.
[/quote]

Ok, first of all, I want you to understand one thing about me. I am a zealot. I don't have a lot of patience for feelings. The Church has been damaged by letting feelings dictate what should be ruled by reason....this is an example. I don't apologize for being blunt, but to be honest, I wasn't really being blunt, I was just being honest. As for the whole challenge thing...if you didn't want to be challenged, you should have posted this in Open Mic. If you post something like this on the debate table, someone will call you out (a little advice from an old timer to a newbie). As it is, you got lucky and I responded. LOL!!!! I am known for being a hard charger and I won't back off. Being Catholic is all or nothing.

Next, I already affirmed that the Church allows for female altar servers, BUT (and it is a HUMONGOUS BUT) every time they say that females are allowed, there is immdediately a caveat stating that it would be better that males would serve. So, again, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean that it is necessarily the better option.

As for altar servers preaching.....you're confusing roles. I am opposed to having females lector, mainly for the same reasons that I don't like females serve. And while lectoring is not preaching, it is proclaiming and while allowed, again, I am not necessarily sold that it is a better option than having a male do it, because of the link to the ministerial priesthood.

All of this hinges on the ministerial priesthood. EVERYTHING that happens inside the communion rail is an extension of Holy Orders. Serving....Lectoring....Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion....they all are roles proper to males, by the fact that they are roles proper to the priesthood. Sharing in the royal priesthood does not entitle anyone to serve at the altar. It seems better that with all cases being equal that the ministering at Mass should be left to males, because they are more perfectly suited to it. Call me sexist, call me intolerant, call me whatever you like. Bottom line....if we are going to resurrect the priesthood, we need to start allowing males to serve at the altar and do what is most properly suited for them. If we keep emasculating male-centered roles in the Church, the number of vocations will continue to fall.

Encouragement for males to serve should not just come from the pastor. A great way to show that you support this would be to encourage males to serve and then let them take your place. It shows humility, charity, and finally it shows that you have a healthy respect for the vocation to the priesthood.

Also, I don't necessarily know if it is better for a female to serve, as opposed to nobody. Understanding of roles within the Church is an important concept. Also, if males are encouraged to serve, even if it is a few who are committed to doing this, then it is far better than simply letting something happen because it can.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294002288' post='2195951']
hahaha well that too.

I always miss the music at FUS's daily Mass(s?) when I come home.

Though, before I digress any further from the original topic, of which I am more or less indifferent too, I try to otherwise ignore my peeves and things other's do at Mass, because if I become critical of everything that everyone [b][i]else[/i][/b] is doing, then am I really there for community in communion with the Lord, or am I there to just rate everyone on their holiness?
[/quote]
yeah, my scale's from 1 (heretic) - 10 (super holy saint-like).

[Papist]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]Christ himself chose to limit the ordination of priests and Bishops to men only; consequently, the Church does not have the authority to ordain women to the priesthood or the Episcopate. Women cannot be validly ordained as priests or Bishops. Altar servers are not ordained, so girls could possibly serve at the altar. However, it is wiser and more prudent to restrict girls from serving at the altar, for the following reasons.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]1) Boys serve at the altar partly as a way to introduce youths to the priesthood, which is for males only. Currently, the vast majority of altar servers do not become priests. However, this trend can and should change. Boys should be encouraged to consider the priesthood from an early age. And they should be encouraged to become altar servers as a good first introduction to the priesthood. But if girls serve along side boys, the role of altar server will not be viewed by the children or their parents as an introduction to the role of a priest.[/size]

[size="2"]Now some say that the role of altar girl can be an introduction for the girls to the religious life, so that boys would see serving at the altar as a precursor to the role of a priest, and girls would see it as a precursor to the role of a religious sister. This view is incorrect. It is not the role of women religious to serve at the altar. Nuns are called to the consecrated life for prayer, self-sacrifice, and works of mercy. Nuns are not called to take those roles which are most fitting only for the ordained, but which do not absolutely require ordination. There are certain roles in the Church which require ordination, and other roles which, while not absolutely requiring ordination, are most fitting only for the ordained.[/size]

[size="2"]2) The altar servers assist a male-only priesthood. As a group, even though most do not become priests, the altar boys are a foreshadowing and a reflection of the male-only priesthood. By example, the altar boys teach that only men can and should be priests and Bishops.[/size]

[size="2"]Some may say that we should view the role of altar server as separate from the priesthood, since altar servers are not ordained. But those who serve at the altar serve along side ordained priests, assisting them closely throughout the holy Mass. The reduction of male-only roles to nothing other than those roles absolutely requiring ordination erodes the teaching of the Church on the male-only priesthood. Following this erroneous path would lead to a reduction in the role of the priest to nothing other than a dispenser of Sacraments. Such is not the will of God.[/size]

[size="2"]3) God intends men and women to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society. This teaching of Tradition and Scripture is not restricted, within the Church, only to the role of priests and Bishops, but to many other roles as well. In the family, the husband is the head of the family, not the wife; nor does the family have two heads, husband and wife. In society, it is not the will of God to have all roles filled by both men and women without regard to gender. Some differences in roles makes for a wise and orderly society.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]When girls serve along side boys at the altar, the teaching of the Church that men and women are intended by God to have different roles is contradicted by example. Children learn the incorrect idea that boys and girls, men and women, can and should have the same roles in everything. When only boys serve, children learn the correct teaching that some roles are for males only. The choice of males only as altar servers wisely reflects the wider teaching that not all roles are for persons of either gender. The use of both girls and boys at the altar contradicts by example this understanding of different roles based on gender.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]4) The Church must not be overly influenced by sinful secular society. The Church has teachings which come from Divine Revelation. But secular society also has its teachings, some of which are irreconcilable with Church teaching. One such contrary teaching is the idea that there should be no distinctions, no differences in roles, based on gender. The widespread and very recent innovation of having altar girls is not a reflection of the teachings of Tradition and Scripture, but is a reflection of the teachings of secular society. Although the Church does not absolutely forbid girls to serve at the altar, the choice of boys only as altar servers better reflects the teachings and traditions of the Church. This wise choice also undermines the false teaching of secular society that male and females must have the same roles in everything.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]5) There is a tendency in the parishes and dioceses today to over-hire women. Perhaps partly because women cannot be ordained, there is a tendency to permit or encourage women to be in the majority in every non-ordained role. This is seen in many parishes where most extraordinary ministers of holy Communion are female, where most lectors are female, where most parish council members are female, etc. It is also seen in parishes where the proportion and number of altar girls increases and that of boys decreases. The end result of this tendency is for women to dominate every role other than that of ordained deacons, priests, and Bishops. There is no teaching in Tradition or Scripture which supports this tendency; it is not the work of the Holy Spirit.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]This over-use of women in various non-ordained roles presents religious service as if it were primarily the domain of females. The result is that males tend not to see religion as a possible vocation, despite the fact that only men are priests. The use of altar girls further extends the roles of females in religion, also further undermining the view that men are called by God to be leaders of the Church.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size=2]
[/size] [size="2"]6) The Church has the authority to forbid females to serve at the altar and to choose to have only males as servers. For such has been the traditional practice of the Church. But the Church does not have the authority to forbid males to serve at the altar, and to have only female altar servers. Those who serve at the altar serve a male-only priesthood. Thus male altar servers are the norm, and female altar servers are the exception.[/size]

[size="2"]If every diocese and parish were to permit female altar servers, then this practice would teach by example that female altar servers are a norm, not an exception. How can a practice be understood as an exception if it is found in every diocese and parish without exception? Furthermore, such a practice of permitting female altar servers, if it were found in every diocese, would teach by example that it is wrong to have only male altar servers. The exception would then become the rule, and the norm would become prohibited. Such a disorder contradicts the tradition of the Church from the beginning and is therefore contrary to the will of God.[/size]

[size="2"]One last thing…if you want boys to stop doing something, make it a girl thing.[/size]

[size="2"]And then regarding seminaries…you want men to stop doing something, make it a gay thing.[/size] [/font]

Edited January 3, 2011 by Papist