Female Altar Servers

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1293786558' post='2195440']
I'm never sure what to think.. When I was a young girl, I went through training to become one, but then I stopped when I reached high school because my family moved and I became a lector instead. But recently, my parish's altar servers just... haven't been showing up! Unfortunately. Needless to say, word got out (thanks mom) that I know how to serve. So lately, if there's a lack of servers, I tend to be the go-to girl. I consider it an honor to serve in that way, but I have noticed that there are still some harsh feelings out there towards girl altar servers. For instance, one of my friends just received a new pastor into their parish, and he declared that there will be no more girl altar servers other than the ones already assigned.
In the pro-altar girl argument, it seems that in time of need, any altar server is better than none, regardless of gender.

In anti-altar girl argument, I feel like altar servers should be those discerning priesthood, for those who will someday practice the Mass themselves. And, priests cannot be women.

Any input, opinions, and references would be awesome
[/quote]


I don't think girls should be altar servers. Girl servers did not come about until [i]quite[/i] recently. They walked in the door along with the feminist agenda. The mentality is that the Church is anti-woman, and altar girls are just a relfection of that mentality and a way to weasel females into priestly (or as priest-like as possible) activity. Altar serving is traditionally reserved for young boys and seminarians, for good reason: to encourage/prepare them for the priesthood. You can't encourage a girl to be a priest. You cannot prepare her for the priesthood. So why act as though you can? Why encourage the liberal/feminist mentality? If we promise to "avoid all near occassions of sin" then why do we open ourselves upon to that sort of influence?
I suppose that, if there is absolutely no alternative, then a girl may serve. But this would be an extreme case, not the norm. It wouldn't be regular enough to form or feed a feminist mentality.

I'm a girl. I serve at Mass.... in the choir. And I serve just as much as any male altar server. Just in a different capacity.

Pax et bonum,
~Tally

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294002879' post='2195958']
Ok, first of all, I want you to understand one thing about me. I am a zealot. I don't have a lot of patience for feelings. The Church has been damaged by letting feelings dictate what should be ruled by reason....this is an example. I don't apologize for being blunt, but to be honest, I wasn't really being blunt, I was just being honest. As for the whole challenge thing...if you didn't want to be challenged, you should have posted this in Open Mic. If you post something like this on the debate table, someone will call you out (a little advice from an old timer to a newbie). As it is, you got lucky and I responded. LOL!!!! I am known for being a hard charger and I won't back off. Being Catholic is all or nothing.

Next, I already affirmed that the Church allows for female altar servers, BUT (and it is a HUMONGOUS BUT) every time they say that females are allowed, there is immdediately a caveat stating that it would be better that males would serve. So, again, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean that it is necessarily the better option.

As for altar servers preaching.....you're confusing roles. I am opposed to having females lector, mainly for the same reasons that I don't like females serve. And while lectoring is not preaching, it is proclaiming and while allowed, again, I am not necessarily sold that it is a better option than having a male do it, because of the link to the ministerial priesthood.

All of this hinges on the ministerial priesthood. EVERYTHING that happens inside the communion rail is an extension of Holy Orders. Serving....Lectoring....Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion....they all are roles proper to males, by the fact that they are roles proper to the priesthood. Sharing in the royal priesthood does not entitle anyone to serve at the altar. It seems better that with all cases being equal that the ministering at Mass should be left to males, because they are more perfectly suited to it. Call me sexist, call me intolerant, call me whatever you like. Bottom line....if we are going to resurrect the priesthood, we need to start allowing males to serve at the altar and do what is most properly suited for them. If we keep emasculating male-centered roles in the Church, the number of vocations will continue to fall.

Encouragement for males to serve should not just come from the pastor. A great way to show that you support this would be to encourage males to serve and then let them take your place. It shows humility, charity, and finally it shows that you have a healthy respect for the vocation to the priesthood.

Also, I don't necessarily know if it is better for a female to serve, as opposed to nobody. Understanding of roles within the Church is an important concept. Also, if males are encouraged to serve, even if it is a few who are committed to doing this, then it is far better than simply letting something happen because it can.
[/quote]

Thank you for everything. Looking back on this thread, I see how seriously most of you take this subject. I asked the question because I just didn't know what the truth about the subject was or how I even felt about it. Ultimately, I disagree with promoting girl altar servers for the reasons that everyone said: it should be reserved to boys to prepare them to be open to the priesthood and to respect what Jesus established within ministry of any type. Taking that into consideration, I plan on telling my parish priest (luckily we're fairly close) that I'm not comfortable serving on the altar anymore, and propose advertising it more to the young men in my parish.
I just wanna be a really good Catholic lol. Thanks everyone : )

[Cam42]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1294086200' post='2196215']
Thank you for everything. Looking back on this thread, I see how seriously most of you take this subject. I asked the question because I just didn't know what the truth about the subject was or how I even felt about it. Ultimately, I disagree with promoting girl altar servers for the reasons that everyone said: it should be reserved to boys to prepare them to be open to the priesthood and to respect what Jesus established within ministry of any type. Taking that into consideration, I plan on telling my parish priest (luckily we're fairly close) that I'm not comfortable serving on the altar anymore, and propose advertising it more to the young men in my parish.
I just wanna be a really good Catholic lol. Thanks everyone : )
[/quote]

As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294087127' post='2196219']
As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.
[/quote]
agreed.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294087127' post='2196219']
As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.
[/quote]

Ooooo no I wouldn't give him the "better Catholic" reason. I can see how that can be misconstrued as disrespect and everything.
I'm also not so sure that bombarding him and telling him I'm doing this to "be a better Catholic" would be humble of me to do lol.
Thanks for looking out for me though. I appreciate it alott.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1294002288' post='2195951']


I always miss the music at FUS's daily Mass(s?) when I come home.

[/quote]

Yeah... I spent a week there this summer. When I went home to my parish's daily Mass, I definitely missed the music. Aside from the fact that the closest person to my age had about 50 years on me.. lol

[Papist]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294087127' post='2196219']
As someone who has worked in and around the Church for a very long time, I will offer you one piece of advice. Don't go hard charging into your pastor, no matter how close you are. Be clear, be concise, but don't tell him that you don't want to serve because you want to be a good Catholic. He will crucify you, especially if he allows for females to serve.

[b]You're not being a bad Catholic.[/b] You're just coming to a better understanding of proper roles within the Church.

Tell him something along the lines that you would like to be more respectful to proper roles within the Church. Let him know that women have a distinct role in the Church and that you are pursuing that avenue, as opposed to pursuing serving at the altar. Look into starting a sodality for young women your age or join the altar and rosary society, etc...Let him know that you believe that serving at the altar should be reserved for males, becuase of the link to the priesthood, but don't, please don't tell him that it is because you think that you're being a bad Catholic....I don't want to see you crucified.

Just some friendly advice from someone who's been kicked around alot in the Church and is still around.
[/quote]

I'd be very careful talking to your priest. I would be sure to make it about you and your understanding of the Church's teachings and roles. Perhaps you can add that you do not want to be an impediment to any boy becoming an altar. I would also approach some young boys(4th grade minimum) after mass and say something like , "I noticed how well behaved, dressed, reverent, etc. you were during mass. You would make a good altar boy. Have you considered becoming an altar boy?"

[Cam42]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1294091147' post='2196251']
I'd be very careful talking to your priest. I would be sure to make it about you and your understanding of the Church's teachings and roles. Perhaps you can add that you do not want to be an impediment to any boy becoming an altar. I would also approach some young boys(4th grade minimum) after mass and say something like , "I noticed how well behaved, dressed, reverent, etc. you were during mass. You would make a good altar boy. Have you considered becoming an altar boy?"
[/quote]

I don't necessarily think that an age floor has to be 4th grade. I think that any male who has made his first communion and is mature enough to sit still for an hour can serve. We are in the process of creating a team. This team concept is also heirarchical. The youngest start off as torches, then they move to cross, then they move to candles/acolytes (handling the gifts at offertory), to thurifer, which is for the most mature boy. By doing this, it keeps them interested and it also allows for them all to know what is going on at different places in the Mass. It is a great way to promote vocations, because by the time they are finished serving, they could be trained as MCs and then perhaps that could lead to them a vocation....

Also, the more boys in black and white, the better.....I may have done this a time or two....I'm just sayin'.

[Papist]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294092879' post='2196262']
I don't necessarily think that an age floor has to be 4th grade. I think that any male who has made his first communion and is mature enough to sit still for an hour can serve. We are in the process of creating a team. This team concept is also heirarchical. The youngest start off as torches, then they move to cross, then they move to candles/acolytes (handling the gifts at offertory), to thurifer, which is for the most mature boy. By doing this, it keeps them interested and it also allows for them all to know what is going on at different places in the Mass. It is a great way to promote vocations, because by the time they are finished serving, they could be trained as MCs and then perhaps that could lead to them a vocation....

Also, the more boys in black and white, the better.....I may have done this a time or two....I'm just sayin'.
[/quote]

4th grade is the norm/standard starting point. There needs to be a minimum age/grade/etc. established. And yes of course, there will be variances to this from bishop to bishop. I like the hierarchical setup. Young boys need order and structure. I also think it might be a good for them to understand and accept the hierarchical of the Church.

[BigJon16]

I agree that alter servers should be males, though whilst saying this I do not have the courage myself to be an alter server. As Audrey said, our parish consists of old, stubborn, Italians, and they can be quite judgemental too.(I would know haha)

And I dont so much much as fear being judged, (I try to only care what God thinks, but alas, that is hard to do in this society) but my parish doesnt really offer any training for alter serving, at least I dont think so.

I would be less fearful of alter serving if I knew what to do.

--Big Jon

[BigJon16]

It seems like it would be interesting though. After all, I am descerning the priesthood.

--Big Jon

Edited January 5, 2011 by BigJon16

[Cam42]

[quote name='ipwnuathalo' timestamp='1294614005' post='2198345']
Another topic where the legitimate Catholic position gets nuanced to death.

Of course males are to serve at the Altar, of course it is preparation for (discerning) the priesthood. Of course having female altar servers reduces legitimate (heterosexual) vocations because of poor mixing of the sexes before puberty and complicated mixing of the sexes after. Of course real Catholics are against this. Of course it had to be one of our very worst Bishops, Patrick Flores of San Antonio (my hometown, yay!) who spearheaded this entire nonsense. It was like every other stupid nonsensical thing that he ever did in his miserable excuse for a career. He presided over the destruction of our diocese, this was just a sideshow.

Save yourself time. Analyze it like this:

If you think there is a "vocations crisis" because there are too few priests, or too few good priests, or too few straight priests and you thikn this is a problem which needs to be fixed, then you are against female altar servers (if you are minimally consistent).

If, however, you agree with His Eminence Cardinal Mahoney that the "Vocations crisis" is in reality "one of the fruits of Vatican II" (No, I am not making this up. Wikipedia it if you want.) then you should support altar girls.


There, I saved you precious time.
[/quote]

Preach On Brotherman....that was a little harsh, but I love it, you are spot on.

[elizabeth09]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1294086037' post='2196213']
I don't think girls should be altar servers. Girl servers did not come about until [i]quite[/i] recently. They walked in the door along with the feminist agenda. The mentality is that the Church is anti-woman, and altar girls are just a relfection of that mentality and a way to weasel females into priestly (or as priest-like as possible) activity. Altar serving is traditionally reserved for young boys and seminarians, for good reason: to encourage/prepare them for the priesthood. You can't encourage a girl to be a priest. You cannot prepare her for the priesthood. So why act as though you can? Why encourage the liberal/feminist mentality? If we promise to "avoid all near occassions of sin" then why do we open ourselves upon to that sort of influence?
I suppose that, if there is absolutely no alternative, then a girl may serve. But this would be an extreme case, not the norm. It wouldn't be regular enough to form or feed a feminist mentality.

I'm a girl. I serve at Mass.... in the choir. And I serve just as much as any male altar server. Just in a different capacity.

Pax et bonum,
~Tally
[/quote]

I have to agree with you because that is telling the girl that we should have girls as priest.

[cmaD2006]

So I assume that many of you think that women should not be lectors or extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist? How about members of Parish Council? Or leaders of a Church group?

At the parish that I attend on Sundays (my official parish is the one I attend on Saturday night because there is no spanish service on Sunday at that parish) -- there are a good number of both girls and boys who serve at the altar. At the other parish, in the spanish community -- we have 3 girls and 1 boy and struggle at getting more servers.

I think it is correct to have women and girls serving in these capacities. I would be saddened if the Church would regress and remove these forms of service for women and girls for it would be a detriment (in my opinion).

... but I realize that I may be in the minority in the way I think. I believe that the Church needs both men and women, boys and girls to give of their time and talents for the enrichment of the entire Church community. And these are some of the ways that both men and women (boys and girls) can serve.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1295654587' post='2202730']
So I assume that many of you think that women should not be lectors or extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist? How about members of Parish Council? Or leaders of a Church group?

At the parish that I attend on Sundays (my official parish is the one I attend on Saturday night because there is no spanish service on Sunday at that parish) -- there are a good number of both girls and boys who serve at the altar. At the other parish, in the spanish community -- we have 3 girls and 1 boy and struggle at getting more servers.

I think it is correct to have women and girls serving in these capacities. I would be saddened if the Church would regress and remove these forms of service for women and girls for it would be a detriment (in my opinion).

... but I realize that I may be in the minority in the way I think. I believe that the Church needs both men and women, boys and girls to give of their time and talents for the enrichment of the entire Church community. And these are some of the ways that both men and women (boys and girls) can serve.
[/quote]
women should not be lectors....and the use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist should be greatly reduced.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1294632093' post='2198491']
Preach On Brotherman....that was a little harsh, but I love it, you are spot on.
[/quote]
iawtp

[dUSt]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1295654587' post='2202730']
So I assume that many of you think that women should not be lectors or extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist? How about members of Parish Council? Or leaders of a Church group?[/quote]
Being a "lector" is similar to being an "acolyte" in that it is more of an "official" membership into the the church--and is reserved for males. The church allows females to "fill in" for acolytes and lectors in the case of necessity, but the mistake should never be made of thinking they have a permanent title. It's more fitting to call females "readers" and "altar servers", and would be inappropriate to call them lectors or acolytes, I think. That would imply that their temporary fill in role was permanent.

[quote]At the parish that I attend on Sundays (my official parish is the one I attend on Saturday night because there is no spanish service on Sunday at that parish) -- there are a good number of both girls and boys who serve at the altar. At the other parish, in the spanish community -- we have 3 girls and 1 boy and struggle at getting more servers.[/quote]
That's sad. I can tell you this though... my son would not want to be an altar server if all he saw up there every mass was a bunch of girls. I'm just saying. Maybe we should encourage our parishes to focus on allowing boys to serve. After all, it should be training for the priesthood, which is obviously reserved for a man.

[quote]I think it is correct to have women and girls serving in these capacities. I would be saddened if the Church would regress and remove these forms of service for women and girls for it would be a detriment (in my opinion).[/quote]
I would be happy if we had enough boys so that girls wouldn't need to serve. I don't think it would be regression at all.

[quote]... but I realize that I may be in the minority in the way I think. I believe that the Church needs both men and women, boys and girls to give of their time and talents for the enrichment of the entire Church community. And these are some of the ways that both men and women (boys and girls) can serve.
[/quote]
I agree whole heartedly that the church needs both men and women, but I don't think there is a need to have everyone share the same roles. When a man and a woman get married, they don't both become the husband, and they don't both become the wife. The man is clearly the husband, and the woman is clearly the wife... despite what my wife might tell you. haha

[AudreyGrace]

I'm still not so sure. Ideally, I do think should be reserved for boys as much as possible. But lectors and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist... I don't know. Then again, it's not really my own opinion that matters. The Church says it is okay. It's fine to think that only men SHOULD be any type of servers, but when it comes down to it, I'm sticking to the teaching authority that Jesus set up- the Church. Where there's a need for female servers of any kind (except priesthood, obviously), it ought to be filled. I'm not going to live in my own bubble where I get upset if things don't happen the way I think they SHOULD, I'm going to live in the way that the Church deems conforming to God's will. Not relying on my own understanding, but on God's and His Church's.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1295657671' post='2202780']
women should not be lectors....and the use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist should be greatly reduced.
[/quote]
Yep, absolutely.

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1295683656' post='2202995']
I agree whole heartedly that the church needs both men and women, but I don't think there is a need to have everyone share the same roles. When a man and a woman get married, they don't both become the husband, and they don't both become the wife. The man is clearly the husband, and the woman is clearly the wife... despite what my wife might tell you. haha
[/quote]


[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1295683680' post='2202997']
I'm still not so sure. Ideally, I do think should be reserved for boys as much as possible. But lectors and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist... I don't know. Then again, it's not really my own opinion that matters. The Church says it is okay. It's fine to think that only men SHOULD be any type of servers, but when it comes down to it, I'm sticking to the teaching authority that Jesus set up- the Church. Where there's a need for female servers of any kind (except priesthood, obviously), it ought to be filled. I'm not going to live in my own bubble where I get upset if things don't happen the way I think they SHOULD, I'm going to live in the way that the Church deems conforming to God's will. Not relying on my own understanding, but on God's and His Church's.
[/quote]
The problem is that EMHCs often aren't needed, or at the very least they don't need as many of them as are used. The laity don't [b]have[/b] to receive the Precious Blood; if the priest wishes to make the Precious Blood available to the laity, that's great, but you don't need 4 EMHCs for that at a parish with maybe 100 people in attendance (yes, I've seen this). Many parishes don't need an EMHC to help distribute the Host, but use one anyway. The Church allows for the use of EMHCs when there's an actual need, but I don't think that there is often an actual need.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1295691864' post='2203011']
Yep, absolutely.





The problem is that EMHCs often aren't needed, or at the very least they don't need as many of them as are used. The laity don't [b]have[/b] to receive the Precious Blood; if the priest wishes to make the Precious Blood available to the laity, that's great, but [b]you don't need 4 EMHCs for that at a parish with maybe 100 people in attendance (yes, I've seen this).[/b] Many parishes don't need an EMHC to help distribute the Host, but use one anyway. The Church allows for the use of EMHCs when there's an actual need, but I don't think that there is often an actual need.
[/quote]
Mine is usually 7. It makes me want to kill things.