Family Troubles

[Yaatee]

To both of you:

The first poster is 30 years old. She is a grown woman. She has been married (annulled?). No children, I assume. Would if she fell in love and wanted to marry a man her family disapproved of. Would she end the relationship? How much to we let our families run our lives after we have grown? What if we want to accept an excellent opportunity for job advancement in a far city and they oppose it. Do we turn it down? Suppose your family wanted you to marry a man with money who wanted to marry you but to whom you felt no attraction. Would you do so? How far are you willing to go?

Neither family probably knows that there is a long vetting process on both sides before you take final vows. Years, many years. You are free to go and they are free to dismiss you at any time until first vows and even in temporary vows you can probably leave at any time with a dispensation. I suspect that most non-Catholics do not know this. They think that you run off, take vows and that's it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's harder for a Jewish person. The Catholic church and Jewish faith have been traditional enemies in the past, much less so now. Judaism emphasizes the family, though, not celibacy. But the same rules apply. It's your life. You are only making a serious inquiry.

I think that threats 'never to speak to you again' are hollow. It sounds like Mrs. Bennett in [b]Pride and Prejudice. [/b] Was Elizabeth supposed to marry Mr. Collins (an obnoxious and condescending man whom she despised) because of this empty threat? Most families will come around in time, especially after they visit their daughter, see her new home, meet her superiors and other sisters.

There are a number of threads posted by older women who regret not having entered religious life when they were younger. A number of them had caved to their family's opposition. You don't want to end up one of these.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Yaatee

[elizabeth09]

You have to do God`s Will, and not your parents. I think that my mom does not want me to become a sister because she really want grandchildren. It might be hard on her because I am her first daughter and everything. I will pray for you.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

Speaking of amesome saints..

St. Francis of Assisi's dad told him that he wanted everything of his back. So Francis stripped off his clothes. In the middle of a public square. IN FRONT OF A BISHOP! I'm pretty sure my bishop would be halfway to Russia if that happened! Anyway, the bishop supposedly gave Francis a cloak and Francis' life within the church was begun.

I'm realizing how incredibly blessed I am. I have parents who are supportive (granted, I have to finish university, which is no biggie) and grandparents who are praying.

Praying for all of you out there. I sincerely hope there are no repeats of the Francis story.

[OnlySunshine]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/catsiena.htm"]St. Catherine of Siena[/url] chopped off all her hair when her family wanted her to get married instead of consecrating herself to God.

[url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-clare-of-assisi/"]St. Clare of Assisi[/url] ran away from her family when they forced her to get married and she became consecrated to God in the middle of the night!

There are several others I can't even think of, but you are in good company.

Edited March 1, 2011 by MaterMisericordiae

[vee]

Aquinas' family not only locked him up in a tower but even sent a woman to try and tempt him whom he had the grace and ability to chase out! May all men guard their purity as Thomas did.

St Catherine of Siena's family tried to dissuade her by making her live in the dark dank servant's quarters for one.

St Teresa Benedicta's (Edith Stein) mom strongly opposed her vocation as did Bl Elizabeth of the Trinity's mom. IN both cases the fathers had passed away.

St Gabriel of Our Lady of Sorrows' father intercepted and destroyed his acceptance letter to the Passionists. When Gabriel caught on that something was amiss he and his brother, who was a priest, journeyed to the Passionists however the father contacted the home of each friend and relative along the way to tell them to try and stop Gabriel. Instead Gabriel convinced those at each home of his vocation!

Mother Angelica (of ewtn) left to enter one day only leaving a letter to her mom who was opposed to her vocation. Her mom later entered Mother Angelicas own community.

Anyway as long as you have had your marriage annulled and have no debts or dependents then you are canonically free to enter.

[vee]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1298964856' post='2216719']
I have no wish to discourage you, but in the case of conversion from a non-Christian faith [rather than conversion from another branch of Christianity] I think it is extremely important to be absolutely clear about the reasons for conversion. You have caused your family extreme pain by, essentially, denying their reason, for literally millennia, for existing, through the most horrible persecutions. You may feel -- in fact, I'm sure you do --that you have discovered a great truth. But perhaps there are other reasons behind your conversion that are less lofty?

Only several generations ago, a Jewish family would literally mourn a family member who converted as one who was dead, and end all contact with that person, and even deny that he/she existed. Observant Jews do today. You should examine your feelings about this. "Honor your father and your mother" is a commandment in both faiths.

I would also note that, if you persevere in your vocation, you will have to detach yourself from family and friends eventually in any case. Have you really thought this through?
[/quote]


[b]Phorum Guidelines[/b]
The rules...

[list][*][b]PERSONAL ATTACKS -[/b] A post or comment that does not relate to the topic, but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person or group of people.[/list]Ive reported you for attacking her conversion and her vocation. A vocation is a precious gift and I will defend the vocation of anyone on here.

[Lil Red]

just thought i would add something from the Catechism:

2216 Filial respect is shown by true docility and obedience. "My son, keep your father's commandment, and forsake not your mother's teaching. . . . When you walk, they will lead you; when you lie down, they will watch over you; and when you awake, they will talk with you."20 "A wise son hears his father's instruction, but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke."21

2217 As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord."22 Children should also obey the reasonable directions of their teachers and all to whom their parents have entrusted them. But if a child is convinced in conscience that it would be morally wrong to obey a particular order, he must not do so.

As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. [u]Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children[/u]; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1298964856' post='2216719']
I have no wish to discourage you, but in the case of conversion from a non-Christian faith [rather than conversion from another branch of Christianity] I think it is extremely important to be absolutely clear about the reasons for conversion. You have caused your family extreme pain by, essentially, denying their reason, for literally millennia, for existing, through the most horrible persecutions. You may feel -- in fact, I'm sure you do --that you have discovered a great truth. But perhaps there are other reasons behind your conversion that are less lofty?

[/quote]
A few thoughts from someone who does not frequent this area of Phatmass very often, so please indulge me:

1) I think you are wrong to infer that a convert from a non-Christian needs a greater amount of clarity upon conversion. I think the non-Christian may have a 'farther place to go' from their 'starting point', but I know many many Catholic converts from otherwise Christian denominations, whose decisions have wreaked havoc upon their family.

2) What pain she has or has not caused is really not here or there, or (quite frankly) anything anyone needs to comment on in this phorum. Trust me, LoS knows first hand, better than you could ever imagine.

3) LoS is not denying anyone's reason for existing. She is coming to the truth, which is Christ and His Church. To compare that to a denial of reason of ANY sort is, in my humble opinion, in poor taste.

4) Our Jewish brothers and sisters do not corner the market in pain and suffering for their faith. Someone in the Pakistani Cabinet, the only Christian, and Catholic (btw), just got assassinated for his faith....today. Please do not interpret this as any cheapening of the horrors and struggles of our Jewish brothers and sisters; but please realize they ain't the only ones who suffer for their faith. I would dare say LoS may have had/has suffered tremendously for choosing to accept the Truth of Christ's Church.

5) Your last sentence is in bad form, and it adds nothing except scorn and perhaps projection. One would say that your reason for stating it at all is 'less lofty'.

I wish not to turn this into a debate, but I read this and felt compelled to speak up.

[Chamomile]

I don't really have any advice to add, except to reiterate that prayer is the best thing in this situation, I think. And patience and trust in God's will.

No one in my family is Catholic, and it pains me very much that I can't share the Faith with them in unity... especially that I can't speak with my own Mother about Mary.

Your family may accept in time, or they may not. Just keep following Jesus. He will do the rest.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1299098663' post='2217234']
[b]Phorum Guidelines[/b]
The rules...

[list][*][b]PERSONAL ATTACKS -[/b] A post or comment that does not relate to the topic, but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person or group of people.[/list]Ive reported you for attacking her conversion and her vocation. A vocation is a precious gift and I will defend the vocation of anyone on here.
[/quote]

this is very Dominican of you....


just a few thoughts to the original post,

your vocation is probably solid and very real, else you wouldn't be going through this painful situation right now...persevere and you will be rewarded the greatest gift on the face of this earth: Jesus as Spouse Everlasting........

[jkaands]

General observations. Conversions by an individual in a family, especially a close-knit family, from one faith to another, even within the Christian faith, can be very painful. When someone converts from being Catholic to being Pentecostal or Southern Baptist or converting to Judaism (yes, it does happen) that person will unavoidably inflict pain on his/her family. When that individual converts to Catholicism and wants to enter religious life, which is poorly understood, the pain is greatly magnified.

However, the Catholic church has a lot of built-in safeguards. A minimum of two years is required from conversion to entrance into religious life, and apparently a lot of religious communities require three years, maybe more. The formation period in all communities is very long, up to ten years from entrance to final profession in some cases. There is a lot of time for families to re-adjust and even come around.

[cmotherofpirl]

Ladies you have to understand that your parents love you in ways you cannot begin to understand unless you are a parent yourself. THey have spent all these years caring for you and have been dreaming from before your birth about all the things they wanted for you in your life, usually at the expense of their dreams and wants. We always want better for our kids, and sacrifice our time, energy and life to make it happen. However I doubt if many families think "Gee I hope she grows up to be a catholic nun " Let the idea slowly percolate in their minds, answer all their questions briefly, otherwise don't discuss it, and let the Holy Spirit do his job. If you are converting they will have to review and revise all their apparent and unspoken prejudices before they caln deal with it rationally. Once they see if is slightly different than being condemned a prison for life, they will calm down a bit. If you are in school, wait til you graduate before you make any moves, the convent isn't going anywhere

If they see you are happy and fulfilled, they usually come around in the end, because really there is nothing better than see a happy kid, no matter how old they are.

[CatherineM]

It's not just conversions that hurt families. I'm the last practicing Catholic in my family. The ones who have converted don't hurt in the way it hurts to see people I love no longer believe in God, or care for that matter.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1299171034' post='2217467']
If you are in school, wait til you graduate before you make any moves, the convent isn't going anywhere
[/quote]
Just wanted to note that I don't agree with this. God calls in His perfect timing and sometimes following Him into religious life means giving up a degree.

[emilier98]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1299227004' post='2217786']
Just wanted to note that I don't agree with this. God calls in His perfect timing and sometimes following Him into religious life means giving up a degree.
[/quote]

I agree with both of you. I know many Dominican orders require that you have your bachelors degree before entering, I mean part of their charism is study. I also know a number of Dominican and other orders that do not require you to have anything besides your high school diploma. I believe much of the decision to get your degree or not lies in what order you find yourself drawn to and what apostate you find yourself drawn to. For me my gift is working with others, especially those who are victims of abuse, rape and other traumas. I have a gift for getting people to talk to me and trust me and for being compassionate and non-judgmental. This leads me towards psychology and being a counselor which is what the orders I am looking at would love for me to be. For that I need degrees. The sisters will indeed be there when I finish my undergrad. However God called me during my undergrad and I find it hard to pay attention now because I really, really want to enter like yesterday. Anyway... It all depends on what you want to do and what where God has called you. In order for me to follow his call I need to finish my bachelors, however this is not true for all. Just follow God where he leads you, when He leads you.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='emilier98' timestamp='1299227565' post='2217788']
I agree with both of you. I know many Dominican orders require that you have your bachelors degree before entering, I mean part of their charism is study. I also know a number of Dominican and other orders that do not require you to have anything besides your high school diploma. I believe much of the decision to get your degree or not lies in what order you find yourself drawn to and what apostate you find yourself drawn to. For me my gift is working with others, especially those who are victims of abuse, rape and other traumas. I have a gift for getting people to talk to me and trust me and for being compassionate and non-judgmental. This leads me towards psychology and being a counselor which is what the orders I am looking at would love for me to be. For that I need degrees. The sisters will indeed be there when I finish my undergrad. However God called me during my undergrad and I find it hard to pay attention now because I really, really want to enter like yesterday. Anyway... It all depends on what you want to do and what where God has called you. In order for me to follow his call I need to finish my bachelors, however this is not true for all. Just follow God where he leads you, when He leads you.
[/quote]
You took the time to write out what I think. In my case, a degree is not required and my SD said, "No more waiting." I waited a couple weeks...

[emilier98]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1299227709' post='2217789']
You took the time to write out what I think. In my case, a degree is not required and my SD said, "No more waiting." I waited a couple weeks...
[/quote]

That is amesome! You are so very fortunate. I am so over waiting, but I'll have to wait some more thanks to student loans. Do you know when you're entering?

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1299227004' post='2217786']
Just wanted to note that I don't agree with this. God calls in His perfect timing and sometimes following Him into religious life means giving up a degree.
[/quote]

iawtc

You could be missing your vocation by waiting. Sure, it helps some people to wait and some have to for various reasons such as debt, but if you have nothing holding you back but yourself, you need to take the steps to answer His call.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1299227709' post='2217789']
You took the time to write out what I think. In my case, a degree is not required and my SD said, "No more waiting." I waited a couple weeks...
[/quote]

Oooooo, Miss Rebellious...

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='emilier98' timestamp='1299228083' post='2217790']
That is amesome! You are so very fortunate. I am so over waiting, but I'll have to wait some more thanks to student loans. Do you know when you're entering?
[/quote]
I'm not for-sure entering anyplace yet. My SD just said it was time to start making those steps toward formal application with an order that's been on my heart for twelve years. I mailed my first "application" for a come and see visit earlier this week and will hopefully hear back soon (and have them tell me it's okay for me to come up).

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1299228692' post='2217793']
Oooooo, Miss Rebellious...
[/quote]
I prefer "stubborn".