Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305775606' post='2243465']
...and my rifle bullet is going to go right through that class1 vest most cops wear.
[/quote]

Sorry to intrude, but I am curious as to why you have a high powered rifle in your home? Do you like to kill things from a large distance?

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305790809' post='2243521']
I am not sure what country you come from, but where I come from one's ability to defend one's self begins after one gets arrested.
You don't tend to go to court and plead your case before being arrested, if you can't afford an attorney then the government will provide, but only after one is arrested.

[/quote]
Where I come from, human rights do not come from the government.

[stevil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305804553' post='2243545']
Where I come from, human rights do not come from the government.
[/quote]
Case law does not come from government

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305805255' post='2243546']
Case law does not come from government
[/quote]
Nor do rights come from case law.

In every country I know of, the courts are an arm of the government, imbued with power by the government.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305791411' post='2243526']
Sorry to intrude, but I am curious as to why you have a high powered rifle in your home? Do you like to kill things from a large distance?
[/quote]
We.ll yes but my high powered rifle would be inappropriate for defense. Much too slow. For that I use my medium power semi auto rifle.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ujAXxNxU0[/media]

Edited May 19, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[MithLuin]

Someone has requested that points be addressed individually as stated. So, to add to the discussion....

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305609630' post='2242670']
1. Humans have certain rights, these rights include, in order of importance Life, Liberty, and Property.

2. These Precede the State, they come from the Creator, and not from the State. [/quote]

Agreed, human beings have certain human rights. These rights are intrinsic, and thus a consequence of being a human person. For the Christian, it would make sense to say that these rights are given by God, the Creator, though I hardly have to point out here that not everyone in society is Christian or believes in a Creator. Failure to believe in the Creator is unfortunate, but in no way nullifies your rights. So, suffice it to say that human rights are based upon being human.

These rights include:

[quote]Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
...
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

[i]UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights[/i][/quote]

[quote]We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

[i]US Declaration of Independence[/i][/quote]

[quote] Any well-regulated and productive association of men in society demands the acceptance of one fundamental principle: that each individual man is truly a person. His is a nature, that is, endowed with intelligence and free will. As such he has rights and duties, which together flow as a direct consequence from his nature. These rights and duties are universal and inviolable, and therefore altogether inalienable.
...
Man has the right to live. He has the right to bodily integrity and to the means necessary for the proper development of life, particularly food, clothing, shelter, medical care, rest, and, finally, the necessary social services. In consequence, he has the right to be looked after in the event of illhealth; disability stemming from his work; widowhood; old age; enforced unemployment; or whenever through no fault of his own he is deprived of the means of livelihood.
[i]Pacem in Terris[/i], Pope John XXIII[/quote]

[url=http://www.ihmsjc.org/roman_catholic_human_rights.htm]image[/url]
Apparently, the right to property isn't exactly at the center as the most important right.

While the state is not the source of the rights of human beings, it is certainly a method of guaranteeing them. The smallest unit of society is the family...not the individual. We are social beings, and many of our rights have to do with how we interact with one another. So, the question is....what is the role of the state in all of that? Hardly insignificant! The Declaration of Independence is explicit - it is the role of the government to act on behalf of the govern to secure these rights.



(More later)

[Laudate_Dominum]

Give the anarchist a cigarette.

Where's Stern btw?

[Winchester]

No one has denied any of those rights. The question is whether you may use force of law to give people those things to which they have rights.

Having the right be be looked after if you're ill does not imply someone has the right to force someone else to look after you. It does indicate that no one can mandate your death or withdrawal of care by force of law. Which, of course, what eventually happens when the government forces people to provide care by force of law.

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305813478' post='2243560']
We.ll yes but my high powered rifle would be inappropriate for defense. Much too slow. For that I use my medium power semi auto rifle.
[/quote]
Would I be right in assuming your semi automatic is specifically suited for killing people?
Do you have a desire to tangle with the police?
Is this what this discussion is about, you looking for a moral reason to justify this fantasy?

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305832317' post='2243635']
Would I be right in assuming your semi automatic is specifically suited for killing people?
Do you have a desire to tangle with the police?
Is this what this discussion is about, you looking for a moral reason to justify this fantasy?
[/quote]
If he was looking for reason, he wouldn't have engaged you in discourse.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]
Agreed, human beings have certain human rights. These rights are intrinsic, and thus a consequence of being a human person. For the Christian, it would make sense to say that these rights are given by God, the Creator, though I hardly have to point out here that not everyone in society is Christian or believes in a Creator. Failure to believe in the Creator is unfortunate, but in no way nullifies your rights. So, suffice it to say that human rights are based upon being human.[/quote]


Well wether you acknoledge a Creator or not is irrealivent to whether one exist or not. I agree lack of belief that there is a Creator does not nllify your rights, but I do not agree that you human rights are based on you being human, such a proposition is silly, the rights of something cannot derive their origion from the something itself, such as a man cannot behis own father.







[quote]Apparently, the right to property isn't exactly at the center as the most important right. [/quote] I'll address this later, lets say I disagree, and I believe that Catholic teaching deals with it extensively, but it is unimportant for this discussion, so I will let it go.


[quote]While the state is not the source of the rights of human beings, it is certainly a method of guaranteeing them. The smallest unit of society is the family...not the individual. We are social beings, and many of our rights have to do with how we interact with one another. So, the question is....what is the role of the state in all of that? Hardly insignificant! The Declaration of Independence is explicit - it is the role of the government to act on behalf of the govern to secure these rights. [/quote]
The smallest unit of society maybe the family,this is debatable,but again irrelevent for the discussion, rights are not centered in the family, but in the individual. The individual has the right to self defense, not just society.

The Declaration of Independence is a treasonous letter sent to a king as justiication of treason. It is hardly a philosophical tract on the rights of an individual. Of course it says these rights are the duty of government to protect, that is the justification for the rebellion.


( by the way, bad example if you are arguing property is a not a basic right)

Edited May 19, 2011 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305832317' post='2243635']
Would I be right in assuming your semi automatic is specifically suited for killing people?
Do you have a desire to tangle with the police?
Is this what this discussion is about, you looking for a moral reason to justify this fantasy?
[/quote]



Lol no.

I assume you mean an assault rifle, no it isn't an assualt rifle. Assault rifles are not actually designed for killing people anyway, if you want to kill someone a 30-30 will do a much better job of it than an M-16.
IF I had a desire to tangle with the police i would not talk about it here.


THis discussion was actually inspired by the discussion on the death penalty on another thread. The potential of innocent men being put to death kept being brought up.

I find it interesting how those that were so sure innocents were being killed by the state, reject those same peoples right to defend themselves from the state.

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305841164' post='2243665']
Lol no.
[/quote]
Whew, I just had to ask, didn't want to assume one way or the other. You could have been a wealthy drug lord or a disgruntled ex-marine sniper for all I know.


I'm trying to picture your scenario (with regards to the moral right to resist for an innocent).
One of my favourite movies is Rambo first blood.

The guy becomes a vagrant and wanders into a town where the Sherif doesn't like the look of him and tries to drive him past the town. He ultimately gets arrested for vagrancy.
When they are processing him back at teh station, some are rough on him and joke and laugh at him. One guy grabs him in a headlock from behind, Rambo gets a flashback vision of being tortured in Vietnam, freaks out, attacks the officers and runs away. This basically sets up the rest of the movie where he (as an innocent) is fleeing from the law.

So, i'm trying to imagine, instead of flashbacks of torture, instead maybe a flash back of a Catholic Priest telling him that he has the moral right to resist arrest if he is innocent.
I don't think the audience would have had any sympathy for him if that was the case.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305832317' post='2243635']
Would I be right in assuming your semi automatic is specifically suited for killing people?
Do you have a desire to tangle with the police?
Is this what this discussion is about, you looking for a moral reason to justify this fantasy?
[/quote]


Just a little side note... Don John prefers the rifle, but I prefer my 9mm and I think that in a rather hairy situation the ancestral katana will probably serve just as well. Well, certainly in close quarters. I did laugh at the fantasy part - pure entertainment!

That is all. Back to your normally scheduled debate.

Ninja out!