kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1307109289' post='2249449'] Life teen as a program is basically a "textbook". You get a box with lesson plans in it. You've mentioned what's wrong with how they run the youth ministry program at your parish, those are all terrible things, but what is wrong with life teen? Is it the methodology? The content? I use elements of Life Teen in our parish. I think if the staff at Life Teen knew what your parish was doing, especially during adoration, they would be horrified. The Life Teen staff runs many of Steubenville conferences. [/quote] The program at my parish hosted weekly adoration sessions on Wednesday night. A priest or a deacon would show up to our parish hall at 8ish (we did praise & worship songs beginning at 7:30) and expose the Sacrament for us. We'd have silent adoration for about 45 minutes or so, and the priest or deacon would offer a benediction before reposing the Sacrament. The only time a non-clergy member ever exposed/reposed the Sacrament was if the YM (who was a Eucharistic Minister) had to do it during a LIFE Night when a priest or deacon was unavailable. That only ever happened a handful of times and I can assure you that he was well aware that laity aren't to be "blessing" people with the Monstrance. Edited June 3, 2011 by kujo
AudreyGrace Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307107612' post='2249445'] Yeah...it's [i]terrible[/i] for people to be "unashamed" that they're homosexual. Anyway, it sounds like your YM and CORE Members--not to mention your clergy and religious education staff-- are doing a poor job at catechesis. And that's kinda the rub in this whole thing, one which dUst hit on perfectly in his post above; the LIFE TEEN program is nothing but a couple of booklets and resources on Church doctrine and teachings. In other words, they're just words on a page; however, as with anything else (see: the Bible, the Constitution), it becomes fodder for peoples previously-existing ideas and notions. That can sometimes be good--my YM in high school constructed the program in such a way that it engaged the entire family instead of just we high schoolers, based on a desire to foster deeper relationships between parents in their children. But, as evidenced by some of the bad experiences you can read about here and elsewhere, there are times when the preconceived notions, biases and disdain for one or another of the Church's teachings, held by the YM and the other leaders, percolate into their ministry. But that isn't a failing of LIFE TEEN itself; rather, it's evidence that no one is perfect and that humans project their attitudes and beliefs onto everything they do. [/quote] There is a difference between being unashamed and being unreserved. I have no problem with someone acknowledging having same sex attraction, but when somone has the disrespect to go into a Church that they know is against same sex relationships and bring members of the same sex with them whom they are either dating or hoping to date in the future, while making blatant sexual innuendos all night, is uncalled for IMO. The concept that they have no consideration for the religious community that they are choosing to associate themselves with is what I meant by "unashamed." I probably should have used a different word or explained myself better, and for that I apologize. To what you said about the organization:
LinaSt.Cecilia2772 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I don't think lifeteen is more liberal, i think it's a more contemporary way of teaching the Catholic Church teachings. Like alot of people have said before me, Lifeteen has brought alot of youth to Chirst and the Eucharist more prominently, including myself. I think in our more contemporary world we need a more contemporary way of teaching youth the true Church Teachings, because that's what alot of youth are familiar with. I'm not saying that's all we should teach, i think everyone should know how the traditional Masses and traditional Catholic ways are Celebrated too, and everyone can decide which one they enjoy and get more out of. For me, i love contemporary because it's something new, but i also think that traditional ways are beautiful. it's all in the way you see it. I'm a big fan of Lifeteen, it has helped me alot through my Faith Journey and learning more about the Catholic Church. I agree that it's also a program in how the leaders in the parish of running it, for me being a bad experience as well. But i've been to other Lifeteen youth groups and it's fantastic. so it all depends on various things. Lifeteen has also led me to discern being a youth minister. I love youth ministry and i want to lead youth to the true church, because i believe the youth are the future of the church. So i think lifeteen is a great way of helping youth and students realize their place in role within the church.
Nihil Obstat Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I regard LifeTeen in a similar way to the so-called Charismatic Renewal.
faithcecelia Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I have no experience of Life Teen, but from years of working with Teen's in both my former denomination and the Catholic Church, I'd say they tend to meet your expectations, whatever they are. If you go into something praying and believing they will grow in love and faith through it, they will. Likewise, if you go into it thinking 'well, whats the point they wont take it seriously' then that is exactly what you will get from them. Teenagers can smell hypocrisy at a thousand paces, and will respond better to honest confusion than false knowledge/ I try to view any teen programme as a learning process for all involved - I have learnt so, so much from the teens I have worked with and I thank God for each and every one of them.
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 its not for me... i was taught the mystical beauty and splendor of the Mass by my mom at a very early early age...i've always believed this is what teens need, not the rock n roll guitar choirs or the Priest who celebrates the Mass like Jay Leno does the Tonite Show... ...no need to make the Mass more "exciting.." I mean, what can be more exciting than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving Himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? I've recognized a real hunger in teens, and it isn't satisfied by "gimmicks." All you need to feed them is Truth... Again, I'm not familiar with the "reverent" version of LifeTeen, as the only version I've witnessed is some psuedo-protestant, wishy washy stuff--a failure in every sense of the word...it hasn't evangelized the youth in my parish, and after confirmation, our Mass attendance is missing a whole generation of youth....
BG45 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307109655' post='2249450'] The program at my parish hosted weekly adoration sessions on Wednesday night. A priest or a deacon would show up to our parish hall at 8ish (we did praise & worship songs beginning at 7:30) and expose the Sacrament for us. We'd have silent adoration for about 45 minutes or so, and the priest or deacon would offer a benediction before reposing the Sacrament. The only time a non-clergy member ever exposed/reposed the Sacrament was if the YM (who was a Eucharistic Minister) had to do it during a LIFE Night when a priest or deacon was unavailable. That only ever happened a handful of times and I can assure you that he was well aware that laity aren't to be "blessing" people with the Monstrance. [/quote] Ditto at the parish I go to now when a Festival of Praise is hosted. The only time we had a non-priest do it, he had to go through about a month's worth of training first before Fr. trusted him not to try and do anything that wouldn't be allowed. And that was essentially just respectfully take Christ from the Tabernacle and put Him in the Monstrance. [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307119168' post='2249490'] our Mass attendance is missing a whole generation of youth.... [/quote] That's every Catholic parish I've been in except the university parish I'm at now, which is literally 20 feet from the university's parking garage. :heh: Though granted, it does sometimes result in some cool kindness. A friend and I were standing in line for Confession and he was going to be late for a play he had to go to for class, and was wondering if he'd have to leave and not receive, and was working himself into a tizzy (rightfully so) over it. I just leaned over to the 40-some year old women in front of him and asked if he could skip the line because he had a class event to get to where the doors would be locked, and they were overjoyed someone his age was at Confessions and nearly tossed him into the Confessional when the door opened!
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307119168' post='2249490'] its not for me... i was taught the mystical beauty and splendor of the Mass by my mom at a very early early age...i've always believed this is what teens need, not the rock n roll guitar choirs or the Priest who celebrates the Mass like Jay Leno does the Tonite Show... ...no need to make the Mass more "exciting.." I mean, what can be more exciting than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving Himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? I've recognized a real hunger in teens, and it isn't satisfied by "gimmicks." All you need to feed them is Truth... Again, I'm not familiar with the "reverent" version of LifeTeen, as the only version I've witnessed is some psuedo-protestant, wishy washy stuff--a failure in every sense of the word...it hasn't evangelized the youth in my parish, and after confirmation, our Mass attendance is missing a whole generation of youth.... [/quote] Sometimes I wish I could bring all you LIFE TEEN haters on Phatmass to my parish. You all seem to have these really snooty, condescending attitude towards it, based probably on some combination of bad personal experiences and YouTube videos that show things that don't conform to your vision of holiness or whatever. It's actually pretty infuriating, and while I love me some DS (you know it, sis!), I feel the need to come to the defense of the program I know and love, to save it from the disparaging remarks that get thrown at it around here.
dUSt Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307117718' post='2249488'] I regard LifeTeen in a similar way to the so-called Charismatic Renewal. [/quote] Have you read through the Life Teen program materials?
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1307123270' post='2249506'] Have you read through the Life Teen program materials? [/quote] Something is telling me the answer is no.
TradMom Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307119168' post='2249490'] its not for me... i was taught the mystical beauty and splendor of the Mass by my mom at a very early early age...i've always believed this is what teens need, not the rock n roll guitar choirs or the Priest who celebrates the Mass like Jay Leno does the Tonite Show... ...no need to make the Mass more "exciting.." I mean, what can be more exciting than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving Himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? I've recognized a real hunger in teens, and it isn't satisfied by "gimmicks." All you need to feed them is Truth... Again, I'm not familiar with the "reverent" version of LifeTeen, as the only version I've witnessed is some psuedo-protestant, wishy washy stuff--a failure in every sense of the word...it hasn't evangelized the youth in my parish, and after confirmation, our Mass attendance is missing a whole generation of youth.... [/quote] +Praised be Jesus Christ! This is a beautiful answer and I feel the same way. On a personal level, I am very disheartened by the founder's situation and some the antics I have witnessed at our neighboring parish; and in no way could it be described as "reverent." I am very much against "teens" sitting on the altar, I don't like the focus on the "Teen Mass" and many other things - too numerous to mention, but perhaps most importantly, I believe that Life Teen has brought the "secular" into the "sacred," and that being said - I am glad my children have had the experience of sacred music, and serious instruction regarding what it means to be a Roman Catholic. I believe with my whole heart that our family would not have been blessed with vocations to traditional religious orders had it not been for their introduction into the Church. You are right in mentioning "gimmicks." I have seen that personally and left afterwards feeling very sad. And Dust - yes, I have read through the materials. I am on the board at our parish and when one of the priests suggested it, I was chosen (I did not volunteer) to read through it. He had used it at his past parish, and I thoroughly studied/reviewed/read the materials; including some of the videos and the work that had been done at his prior parish. I DID see some positive attributes, but I believed it was too dependent upon an individual (including the priest) to "make it work." I believed then and do now, that ANY program at parish needs to be about ongoing formation, independent faith development (i.e., no "gimmicks" or "dumbing down" anything) and a concentration on creating a truly sacred space (complete with statues, art, stained glass, a CRUCIFIX, an altar, a Tabernacle, etc.) for intergenerational worship/adoration/prayer in a fully Roman Catholic manner; that means - in my opinion - that ANYone should be able to walk into a Church and recognize the Mass as "their" Mass. In our diocese, we have spent so much time on "cultural experiences" that we seem to have forgotten - totally - that we share a ROMAN CATHOLIC culture, with our home and heart in Rome. I personally do not believe in separating teens (or for that matter - ANY group) apart. If we give them sacred music and introduce them to traditional devotions and proper liturgy - they DO get it. I find it very insulting that teens are constantly been thought of as "needing" special music, "fun" priests, etc. I realize that many of the people on this board love Life Teen, and I am glad you all seem to have experienced something so enriching. All programs (including formation in religious life) need guidance and well qualified people to organize them. So for those of you who have fond memories and feel good/positive about the program, you should thank your parish staff and Youth Minister, for they obviously did something right. Pax, TradMom
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307121386' post='2249494'] Sometimes I wish I could bring all you LIFE TEEN haters on Phatmass to my parish. You all seem to have these really snooty, condescending attitude towards it, based probably on some combination of bad personal experiences and YouTube videos that show things that don't conform to your vision of holiness or whatever. It's actually pretty infuriating, and while I love me some DS (you know it, sis!), I feel the need to come to the defense of the program I know and love, to save it from the disparaging remarks that get thrown at it around here. [/quote] i've never looked at youtube videos of lifeteen, cos that program doesn't interest me. All I've seen is the program implemented at my hometown parish, which leaves much to be desired. I made sure to state in my comment, that I've never witnessed a "reverent" version of the program, so, if that is the way it is for you, than I'm happy for you. It definitely isn't that way in my hometown parish. Instead, it seems to leave our youth with no idea what to believe in, and with a relativist attitude toward God and the Catholic Faith. If your program teaches you to have reverence toward God during the Mass, and what the Mass is all about, and brings the youth closer to God and the Sacraments, and makes them want to stay in the Church long after their Confirmation is over, then I am happy for you. Taht is not what Lifeteen does at my parish.
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I want to re-iterate this sentence: [quote]...no need to make the Mass more "exciting.." I mean, what can be more exciting than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving Himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist?[/quote] ...there are no gimmicks when it comes to establishing a relationship with Jesus Christ...that's what is desperately needed with not only the Youth but the Church overall.
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307126558' post='2249529'] i've never looked at youtube videos of lifeteen, cos that program doesn't interest me. All I've seen is the program implemented at my hometown parish, which leaves much to be desired. I made sure to state in my comment, that I've never witnessed a "reverent" version of the program, so, if that is the way it is for you, than I'm happy for you. It definitely isn't that way in my hometown parish. Instead, it seems to leave our youth with no idea what to believe in, and with a relativist attitude toward God and the Catholic Faith. If your program teaches you to have reverence toward God during the Mass, and what the Mass is all about, and brings the youth closer to God and the Sacraments, and makes them want to stay in the Church long after their Confirmation is over, then I am happy for you. Taht is not what Lifeteen does at my parish. [/quote] Seems like that's more an indictment on the people in charge of the youth group, ya know? Since it's [i]their[/i] job to get all of that accomplished. Edited June 3, 2011 by kujo
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307126686' post='2249530'] I want to re-iterate this sentence: ...there are no gimmicks when it comes to establishing a relationship with Jesus Christ...that's what is desperately needed with not only the Youth but the Church overall. [/quote] Agreed. I think critics of the program are the only people who see relational ministry as a "gimmick" though.
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='TradMom' timestamp='1307126453' post='2249528'] +Praised be Jesus Christ! This is a beautiful answer and I feel the same way. On a personal level, I am very disheartened by the founder's situation and some the antics I have witnessed at our neighboring parish; and in no way could it be described as "reverent." I am very much against "teens" sitting on the altar, I don't like the focus on the "Teen Mass" and many other things - too numerous to mention, but perhaps most importantly, I believe that Life Teen has brought the "secular" into the "sacred," and that being said - I am glad my children have had the experience of sacred music, and serious instruction regarding what it means to be a Roman Catholic. I believe with my whole heart that our family would not have been blessed with vocations to traditional religious orders had it not been for their introduction into the Church. You are right in mentioning "gimmicks." I have seen that personally and left afterwards feeling very sad. And Dust - yes, I have read through the materials. I am on the board at our parish and when one of the priests suggested it, I was chosen (I did not volunteer) to read through it. He had used it at his past parish, and I thoroughly studied/reviewed/read the materials; including some of the videos and the work that had been done at his prior parish. I DID see some positive attributes, but I believed it was too dependent upon an individual (including the priest) to "make it work." I believed then and do now, that ANY program at parish needs to be about ongoing formation, independent faith development (i.e., no "gimmicks" or "dumbing down" anything) and a concentration on creating a truly sacred space (complete with statues, art, stained glass, a CRUCIFIX, an altar, a Tabernacle, etc.) for intergenerational worship/adoration/prayer in a fully Roman Catholic manner; that means - in my opinion - that ANYone should be able to walk into a Church and recognize the Mass as "their" Mass. In our diocese, we have spent so much time on "cultural experiences" that we seem to have forgotten - totally - that we share a ROMAN CATHOLIC culture, with our home and heart in Rome. I personally do not believe in separating teens (or for that matter - ANY group) apart. If we give them sacred music and introduce them to traditional devotions and proper liturgy - they DO get it. I find it very insulting that teens are constantly been thought of as "needing" special music, "fun" priests, etc. I realize that many of the people on this board love Life Teen, and I am glad you all seem to have experienced something so enriching. All programs (including formation in religious life) need guidance and well qualified people to organize them. So for those of you who have fond memories and feel good/positive about the program, you should thank your parish staff and Youth Minister, for they obviously did something right. Pax, TradMom [/quote] I respect this response because, while it is critical of LIFE TEEN--which I am too, btw-- it does so without the looking-down-your-nose attitude that seems to permeate discussions like these. I disagree with the overall point, and the false dichotomy that lies at the heart of it--secular v.s. sacred.
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 I just want to define what I mean by "gimmicks." When St. John Bosco catechized youth, he'd get their attention with tricks, and perform stunts, and do his best to entertain the youth. In the process, he would incorporate the Gospel and teach them some catechism. These gimmicks of his, to attract youth, were performed OUTSIDE of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is NO need for secular "entertainment" in the Mass. Let the Mass stand for Itself. Give the youth a chance to meet Jesus and fall in love with Him in the Mass as It is.
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307127549' post='2249536'] I just want to define what I mean by "gimmicks." When St. John Bosco catechized youth, he'd get their attention with tricks, and perform stunts, and do his best to entertain the youth. In the process, he would incorporate the Gospel and teach them some catechism. These gimmicks of his, to attract youth, were performed OUTSIDE of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is NO need for secular "entertainment" in the Mass. Let the Mass stand for Itself. Give the youth a chance to meet Jesus and fall in love with Him in the Mass as It is. [/quote] Okay. So, what sort of in-mass gimmicks are you referring to?
faithcecelia Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307127549' post='2249536'] I just want to define what I mean by "gimmicks." When St. John Bosco catechized youth, he'd get their attention with tricks, and perform stunts, and do his best to entertain the youth. In the process, he would incorporate the Gospel and teach them some catechism. These gimmicks of his, to attract youth, were performed OUTSIDE of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is NO need for secular "entertainment" in the Mass. Let the Mass stand for Itself. Give the youth a chance to meet Jesus and fall in love with Him in the Mass as It is. [/quote] I have to agree with this wholeheartedly - and also say that I think I have only ever been to one 'gimmicky' Mass, which was aimed at adults and went so off course I actually left! I feel saddened, though, when lively music is considered a gimmick. Don't get me wrong, there can be times when the music group seems to be more intent on putting on a performance than aiding worship, but I have also seen that with traditional choirs, and even some alter servers who seem determined to take centre stage! When worship is authentic, when it is from the heart and focused on Christ, it shows and it draws people closer to God - whether it is modern or medieval.
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307127686' post='2249538'] Okay. So, what sort of in-mass gimmicks are you referring to? [/quote] the rock n roll bands, complete with metal guitars, and drums, singing the protestant praise-and worship music that is NOT acceptable in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass---The priest acting the show-host, complete with jokes and "dumbing" down the readings as if teens were not smart enuff to understand the Liturgy of the Word as it is written. The huggy, grab your neighbors, and lets hold hands around the altar scene, and allowing teens to hand out Holy Communion to make them feel "included," even when 1-that ministry is supposed to be extraordinary, and 2- there is obvious improper training of these youth, who most of the time do not understand the importance of this duty. I'm sure the Church approves of LifeTeen, but like everything else, it is the way it is implemented that matters. Personally, I don't think the Holy Mass needs to be re-constructed to appeal to a specific group. (I also disapprove of Polka Masses.)
Recommended Posts