If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make A Rock So Big, That Even He Cannot

[southern california guy]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1307327886' post='2250306']
i know folks have mentioned this here in passing, addressed it. but, never a devoted topic to it.

God can do anything, right?
If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big, that even He cannot lift it?
If you say he can make the rock... then are you saying that God cannot lift it?
If you say that he can lift the rock... then are you saying that he can't make the rock so big enough?
[/quote]

Is it logical that a being exists who can do absolutely anything? No.. Are there things in this world that we didn't used to be able to describe and understand through science, but we can now? Yes.. Is god scientifically possible? Probably not.

But there is good and bad in the world. Those aren't terms that relate to science. And we are alive and experiencing life and we want to live a good one.

It could be argued that Christians behave the way that they do because of the Bible. And people can try to argue that living according to the Bible doesn't make logical sense. However, if you're an atheist you might argue that the Bible makes logical sense. You see instead of people being a product of the Bible, the Bible is a product of people -- over a very long period of time. And if nothing else it contains philosophy that has withstood the test of time. Doubting the philosophy taught in the Bible is foolish -- even if there isn't a god.

It seems to me that the logical arguments aimed at disproving god are the first step in attempting to argue against the morality taught in the Bible, when they are in fact totally different things.

This gets back to the "objective morality" debate.

Edited June 6, 2011 by southern california guy

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1307337575' post='2250357']
Please!

My seventh grade (non-Catholic) religion teacher used to whip this shift on us when we were 12 and 13 years old.

It has about as much relevance as asking, "How would World War II have been different if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?" See old Saturday Night Live shows for that answer.

The asnwer is that God doesn't have a body, so s/he doesn't go around lifting rocks. Get off the physical plane and think spiritually.

In other words, buy a vowel and try to solve this puzzle.
[/quote]

So, you do believe Jesus is God? I mean he does have a physical body.

ed

[arfink]

The way I have had this explained to me is that the argument ceases to make sense when you consider that God and material things are very different. A rock is a material thing, which means it needs to be finite, no matter how large. God, on the other hand, is not finite. Now, in science, we would say that to move an object of an infinite size or mass you would require an infinite amount of energy to move it. So even if God decided to break the laws of physics and make a non-finitely sized rock, his infinite power would always be able to move it.

Now of course, you may say, what if he intended it to be un-liftable, in defiance of all physics? The response would be that God would never intend to will something he cannot do- his will is perfect. But of course, he could just decide to blow your mind and do it anyway, he has been known to do that. He's God. This is one of those questions that can't be easily answered precisely because we lack a full understanding of who God is and how his will works, which is extremely mysterious.

Edited June 7, 2011 by arfink

[Luigi]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1307414271' post='2250678']
So, you do believe Jesus is God? I mean he does have a physical body.

ed
[/quote]

Of course I believe that Jesus is God. But the question was, "Can God make a rock...?" Most people interpret the question to mean can God the Father-Creator make a rock ....? I suppose God the Father could make a rock and order his son to lift it, but that would require the Second Coming, at which point lifting rocks becomes kind of irrelevant.

[Luigi]

Besides, God wouldn't bother to lift the rock. If he has faith to move mountains, I think he (the Father OR the Son) would just say, "Rock, get outta my way" without bothering to lift.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Luigi

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307328054' post='2250308']
A variant I particulary like is:

Is god powerful enough to make something more powerful than him?
[/quote]

I always found this question odd and akin to asking "Can there be something less limited (or more limitless) than the fullness/limitlessness of being?" One must be careful here not be anthropomorphic when asking this question. One is not asking about "can God lift something heavy," a question in which God seems to be just a really powerful human. Rather God must be understood as a being without a nature/essence--a being without limitation on its act-of-being which would otherwise make it an individual in a species. One must remember that God is the fullness of the act of being. In keeping with this understanding, one is actually asking: can God, who is limitless being, place a limit on His being? Yes and No. Yes in so far as we believe that God did take on a human nature and become man in the person of Jesus Christ. No insofar as God is God and can't "create" anything more limitless than Him since He is limitless being. This is not a limit on His power but rather the limit of created things. Created things have being and then an essence/nature that makes them what they are. These essences limit an individual's being in order to make them what they are as an individual of a species. Cats are limited in certain ways; their material is limited and don't have wings and therefore cannot do things like fly. On another note, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, so there is a kind of yes to your question in that God begets a person that is as limitless as He is and who is also in the Godhead.

This is probably really confusing and I apologize but it seems that if one is not being anthropomorphic, where God is understood as just a really powerful human lifting stuff, then the question is answered by the understanding that nothing is more limitless than a being which is the act-of-being not constrained by a nature. Another way of putting this is God is existence without essence or limitation. There can be nothing more "anything" than limitless existence and so this question of "can God make a stone so heavy He can't move it" arises from an anthropomorphic understanding of God and an incomplete understanding of the "limitless existence (what the medievals call [i]esse[/i].)" Since created things have essences they are not limitless like God is and so the question is answered "No, but this is not a limitation on God but a limitation on created beings." Again I apologize for this confusing answer and using the word "being" to describe several different ideas, but this how I understand the issue.

Edit* grammar.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[stevil]

Nevermind thinking about the logically impossible here are things that I can do that an all powerful god cannot:

I can lie

I can run to the point of exhaustion

I can learn new things

I can change my mind

I can forgive and forget, god cannot forget

I can build a brick wall so large that I cannot lift it

I can learn from my mistakes

I can love my parents

I can respect my elders

I can be humble in defeat

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307448518' post='2250750']
Nevermind thinking about the logically impossible here are things that I can do that an all powerful god cannot:

I can lie

I can run to the point of exhaustion

I can learn new things

I can change my mind

I can forgive and forget, god cannot forget

I can build a brick wall so large that I cannot lift it

I can learn from my mistakes

I can love my parents

I can respect my elders

I can be humble in defeat
[/quote]

Certainly puts a spin on omnipotence.

In fact if there was an omnipotent god, the whole world would fall into disorder.
Why is the whole universe fine-tuned anyway? If god were truly all powerful, would it need to be?

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1307431919' post='2250727']
I always found this question odd and akin to asking "Can there be something less limited (or more limitless) than the fullness/limitlessness of being?" One must be careful here not be anthropomorphic when asking this question. One is not asking about "can God lift something heavy," a question in which God seems to be just a really powerful human. Rather God must be understood as a being without a nature/essence--a being without limitation on its act-of-being which would otherwise make it an individual in a species. One must remember that God is the fullness of the act of being. In keeping with this understanding, one is actually asking: can God, who is limitless being, place a limit on His being? Yes and No. Yes in so far as we believe that God did take on a human nature and become man in the person of Jesus Christ. No insofar as God is God and can't "create" anything more limitless than Him since He is limitless being. This is not a limit on His power but rather the limit of created things. Created things have being and then an essence/nature that makes them what they are. These essences limit an individual's being in order to make them what they are as an individual of a species. Cats are limited in certain ways; their material is limited and don't have wings and therefore cannot do things like fly. On another note, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, so there is a kind of yes to your question in that God begets a person that is as limitless as He is and who is also in the Godhead.

This is probably really confusing and I apologize but it seems that if one is not being anthropomorphic, where God is understood as just a really powerful human lifting stuff, then the question is answered by the understanding that nothing is more limitless than a being which is the act-of-being not constrained by a nature. Another way of putting this is God is existence without essence or limitation. There can be nothing more "anything" than limitless existence and so this question of "can God make a stone so heavy He can't move it" arises from an anthropomorphic understanding of God and an incomplete understanding of the "limitless existence (what the medievals call [i]esse[/i].)" Since created things have essences they are not limitless like God is and so the question is answered "No, but this is not a limitation on God but a limitation on created beings." Again I apologize for this confusing answer and using the word "being" to describe several different ideas, but this how I understand the issue.

Edit* grammar.
[/quote]

I guess if you put it in terms of existence or 'ultimate reality' then that makes sense. Existence can't exist less or more, it just...exists.

[Papist]

[font=Tahoma][size=2]God’somnipotence does not mean that He can do all things. God cannot do anythingthat is contrary to His divine nature. E.g. God cannot lie.[/size][/font]

[Luigi]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307448518' post='2250750']
Nevermind thinking about the logically impossible here are things that I can do that an all powerful god cannot:

I can lie

I can run to the point of exhaustion

I can learn new things

I can change my mind

I can forgive and forget, god cannot forget

I can build a brick wall so large that I cannot lift it

I can learn from my mistakes

I can love my parents

I can respect my elders

I can be humble in defeat
[/quote]


Yes, these are all things that you can do, that God cannot do. And that God doesn't need to do, either.

[MithLuin]

Speaking truth is more powerful than telling lies, so I think that God's inability to lie (or our ability to lie) does not make us more powerful than God, nor does it diminish God's omnipotence. God is good; evil acts are a flaw, and take something away from the being who engages in them.

The 'loving your parents' one is interesting. Jesus loves His Father, of course, so he does share that experience with us (and of course he loves Mary and Joseph as well, so that's not even simply analogous). But more than that...God loves [i]my[/i] parents. More than I do. And in fact...I love my parents more fully when I love them as God loves them. When I look at it that way...it's interesting.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='XIX' timestamp='1307329415' post='2250319']
Of course He can. God can make anything.

Then He would go ahead and lift it anyway.
[/quote]



just like Chuck Norris

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307452304' post='2250768']
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]God'somnipotence does not mean that He can do all things. God cannot do anythingthat is contrary to His divine nature. E.g. God cannot lie.[/size][/font]
[/quote]

He cannot or will not?

[KnightofChrist]

God is Truth. He can neither deceive nor be deceived, He knows all things.