If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make A Rock So Big, That Even He Cannot

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307328054' post='2250308']
A variant I particulary like is:

Is god powerful enough to make something more powerful than him?
[/quote]

I always found this question odd and akin to asking "Can there be something less limited (or more limitless) than the fullness/limitlessness of being?" One must be careful here not be anthropomorphic when asking this question. One is not asking about "can God lift something heavy," a question in which God seems to be just a really powerful human. Rather God must be understood as a being without a nature/essence--a being without limitation on its act-of-being which would otherwise make it an individual in a species. One must remember that God is the fullness of the act of being. In keeping with this understanding, one is actually asking: can God, who is limitless being, place a limit on His being? Yes and No. Yes in so far as we believe that God did take on a human nature and become man in the person of Jesus Christ. No insofar as God is God and can't "create" anything more limitless than Him since He is limitless being. This is not a limit on His power but rather the limit of created things. Created things have being and then an essence/nature that makes them what they are. These essences limit an individual's being in order to make them what they are as an individual of a species. Cats are limited in certain ways; their material is limited and don't have wings and therefore cannot do things like fly. On another note, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, so there is a kind of yes to your question in that God begets a person that is as limitless as He is and who is also in the Godhead.

This is probably really confusing and I apologize but it seems that if one is not being anthropomorphic, where God is understood as just a really powerful human lifting stuff, then the question is answered by the understanding that nothing is more limitless than a being which is the act-of-being not constrained by a nature. Another way of putting this is God is existence without essence or limitation. There can be nothing more "anything" than limitless existence and so this question of "can God make a stone so heavy He can't move it" arises from an anthropomorphic understanding of God and an incomplete understanding of the "limitless existence (what the medievals call [i]esse[/i].)" Since created things have essences they are not limitless like God is and so the question is answered "No, but this is not a limitation on God but a limitation on created beings." Again I apologize for this confusing answer and using the word "being" to describe several different ideas, but this how I understand the issue.

Edit* grammar.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[stevil]

Nevermind thinking about the logically impossible here are things that I can do that an all powerful god cannot:

I can lie

I can run to the point of exhaustion

I can learn new things

I can change my mind

I can forgive and forget, god cannot forget

I can build a brick wall so large that I cannot lift it

I can learn from my mistakes

I can love my parents

I can respect my elders

I can be humble in defeat

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307448518' post='2250750']
Nevermind thinking about the logically impossible here are things that I can do that an all powerful god cannot:

I can lie

I can run to the point of exhaustion

I can learn new things

I can change my mind

I can forgive and forget, god cannot forget

I can build a brick wall so large that I cannot lift it

I can learn from my mistakes

I can love my parents

I can respect my elders

I can be humble in defeat
[/quote]

Certainly puts a spin on omnipotence.

In fact if there was an omnipotent god, the whole world would fall into disorder.
Why is the whole universe fine-tuned anyway? If god were truly all powerful, would it need to be?

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1307431919' post='2250727']
I always found this question odd and akin to asking "Can there be something less limited (or more limitless) than the fullness/limitlessness of being?" One must be careful here not be anthropomorphic when asking this question. One is not asking about "can God lift something heavy," a question in which God seems to be just a really powerful human. Rather God must be understood as a being without a nature/essence--a being without limitation on its act-of-being which would otherwise make it an individual in a species. One must remember that God is the fullness of the act of being. In keeping with this understanding, one is actually asking: can God, who is limitless being, place a limit on His being? Yes and No. Yes in so far as we believe that God did take on a human nature and become man in the person of Jesus Christ. No insofar as God is God and can't "create" anything more limitless than Him since He is limitless being. This is not a limit on His power but rather the limit of created things. Created things have being and then an essence/nature that makes them what they are. These essences limit an individual's being in order to make them what they are as an individual of a species. Cats are limited in certain ways; their material is limited and don't have wings and therefore cannot do things like fly. On another note, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, so there is a kind of yes to your question in that God begets a person that is as limitless as He is and who is also in the Godhead.

This is probably really confusing and I apologize but it seems that if one is not being anthropomorphic, where God is understood as just a really powerful human lifting stuff, then the question is answered by the understanding that nothing is more limitless than a being which is the act-of-being not constrained by a nature. Another way of putting this is God is existence without essence or limitation. There can be nothing more "anything" than limitless existence and so this question of "can God make a stone so heavy He can't move it" arises from an anthropomorphic understanding of God and an incomplete understanding of the "limitless existence (what the medievals call [i]esse[/i].)" Since created things have essences they are not limitless like God is and so the question is answered "No, but this is not a limitation on God but a limitation on created beings." Again I apologize for this confusing answer and using the word "being" to describe several different ideas, but this how I understand the issue.

Edit* grammar.
[/quote]

I guess if you put it in terms of existence or 'ultimate reality' then that makes sense. Existence can't exist less or more, it just...exists.

[Papist]

[font=Tahoma][size=2]God’somnipotence does not mean that He can do all things. God cannot do anythingthat is contrary to His divine nature. E.g. God cannot lie.[/size][/font]

[Luigi]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307448518' post='2250750']
Nevermind thinking about the logically impossible here are things that I can do that an all powerful god cannot:

I can lie

I can run to the point of exhaustion

I can learn new things

I can change my mind

I can forgive and forget, god cannot forget

I can build a brick wall so large that I cannot lift it

I can learn from my mistakes

I can love my parents

I can respect my elders

I can be humble in defeat
[/quote]


Yes, these are all things that you can do, that God cannot do. And that God doesn't need to do, either.

[MithLuin]

Speaking truth is more powerful than telling lies, so I think that God's inability to lie (or our ability to lie) does not make us more powerful than God, nor does it diminish God's omnipotence. God is good; evil acts are a flaw, and take something away from the being who engages in them.

The 'loving your parents' one is interesting. Jesus loves His Father, of course, so he does share that experience with us (and of course he loves Mary and Joseph as well, so that's not even simply analogous). But more than that...God loves [i]my[/i] parents. More than I do. And in fact...I love my parents more fully when I love them as God loves them. When I look at it that way...it's interesting.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='XIX' timestamp='1307329415' post='2250319']
Of course He can. God can make anything.

Then He would go ahead and lift it anyway.
[/quote]



just like Chuck Norris

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307452304' post='2250768']
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]God'somnipotence does not mean that He can do all things. God cannot do anythingthat is contrary to His divine nature. E.g. God cannot lie.[/size][/font]
[/quote]

He cannot or will not?

[KnightofChrist]

God is Truth. He can neither deceive nor be deceived, He knows all things.

[Mr.Cat]

Most theistic apologists make the answer that, god can do all things that are possible and that he wants to do. It eliminates the questions such as "[i]can god make a square circle?[/i]" and others. However, I suspect that such questions are to reveal the inconsistencies in proposing an all-powerful god.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1307505613' post='2251129']
Most theistic apologists make the answer that, god can do all things that are possible and that he wants to do. It eliminates the questions such as "[i]can god make a square circle?[/i]" and others. However, I suspect that such questions are to reveal the inconsistencies in proposing an all-powerful god.
[/quote]

Me too. I think that if you're going to use the words 'all powerful' then it would have to be for something that is [i]all[/i] powerful.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307507524' post='2251136']Me too. I think that if you're going to use the words 'all powerful' then it would have to be for something that is [i]all[/i] powerful.[/quote]Once you put an definition to something it becomes testable. If we follow ockham's razor, a scientific principle, the simpler and more common explanation tends to prevail. While there are attempts to reconcile and explain these possible contradictions, the simpler explanation is that it's false. But curiously religiosity discourages people to test or change their beliefs, contrary to science that encourages us to test and change our understanding as the evidence presents itself.

In this sense science is self-correcting while religion is not.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307507524' post='2251136']
Me too. I think that if you're going to use the words 'all powerful' then it would have to be for something that is [i]all[/i] powerful.
[/quote]

Lying is not powerful it is a weakness. To state that something is that is not is a lie, or to make something into what it is not is a lie. The moment God lies He ceases to be all powerful.

Edited June 8, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[dUSt]

I think God would simply make the person asking the question forget they asked the question,
so there would be no need for Him to make nor lift any rocks at all.

I don't know, seems like that would be the most logical all-powerful thing to do in that situation.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1307508881' post='2251151']I think God would simply make the person asking the question forget they asked the question,
so there would be no need for Him to make nor lift any rocks at all.

I don't know, seems like that would be the most logical all-powerful thing to do in that situation.[/quote]
Is God a jedi?

[KnightofChrist]

Lying is evil. Evil is in actuality the absence of good, like coldness is the absence of warmth. This is why it would be contradictory for a all powerful, all knowing, and Eternal being who is goodness itself to lie.

[dUSt]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1307327886' post='2250306']
If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big, that even He cannot lift it?[/quote]
He already did. I'm sure there were plenty of rocks Jesus could not lift.

[quote]If you say he can make the rock... then are you saying that God cannot lift it?[/quote]
Yes. Jesus could not lift rocks, probably over 250-300lbs, somewhere around there.

[quote]If you say that he can lift the rock... then are you saying that he can't make the rock so big enough?[/quote]
No, I just said he could not lift really big rocks.

Any more questions?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307508972' post='2251153']
Lying is evil. Evil is in actuality the absence of good, like coldness is the absence of warmth. This is why it would be contradictory for a all powerful, all knowing, and Eternal being who is goodness itself to lie.
[/quote]

And this is also why it is actually contradictory for someone to suggest that a all powerful being can lie or not be all powerful. For God to lie would me He was not actually all powerful and was not actually all goodness. The contradiction is in the person making the claim that God is not all powerful if He cannot lie. Not in the one that says He cannot.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1307509336' post='2251155']
He already did. I'm sure there were plenty of rocks Jesus could not lift.


Yes. Jesus could not lift rocks, probably over 250-300lbs, somewhere around there.


No, I just said he could not lift really big rocks.

Any more questions?
[/quote]

Yeah it's a silly question, Christ could will a mountain to move and it would move, or the biggest rock whatever, He would not need lift it at all.