If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make A Rock So Big, That Even He Cannot

[4588686]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1307530226' post='2251194']
This is the kind of question that a 3rd grader would ask someone just to be annoying.
[/quote]


In my experience, it's annoying because religious people have difficulty giving a satisfactory answer to it. It is the kind of question that a third grader would ask. That's probably because children are very good at asking very obvious, fundamental questions. They tend to not be very skilled at obfuscation.

That's not to say that the conclusions atheists try to derive from the problem's tricky nature are valid.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Hasan

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1308103061' post='2253847']That's not to say that the conclusions atheists try to derive from the problem's tricky nature are valid.[/quote][center][img]http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/occamsrazorbu0.jpg[/img][/center]

[Jesus_lol]

Is god powerful enough to make a rock weak enough that it can ACTUALLY be defeated by paper and yet still be able to crush a standard pair of scissors???

Edited June 15, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[stevil]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1307530226' post='2251194']
This is the kind of question that a 3rd grader would ask someone just to be annoying.
[/quote]
I don't necessarily think this debate is meant to be annoying, i think the logic problems are somewhat tongue in cheek, and can provide much literary and logic dancing from both sides of the argument. It can be enjoyed from a light hearted perspective rather than worrying about whether it proves that god does or doesn't exist.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1308120272' post='2253944']
I don't necessarily think this debate is meant to be annoying, i think the logic problems are somewhat tongue in cheek, and can provide much literary and logic dancing from both sides of the argument. It can be enjoyed from a light hearted perspective rather than worrying about whether it proves that god does or doesn't exist.
[/quote]
That's my perspective on Anselm's ontological 'proof'.

[Mr.Cat]

I want my perfect island.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1308103061' post='2253847']
In my experience, it's annoying because religious people have difficulty giving a satisfactory answer to it.
[/quote]

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my response to the question. I believe it is post number 21ish. I can also elaborate more on certain things if need be, I know I can be unclear at times.

[stevil]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' timestamp='1308129664' post='2253951']
I'd be interested to hear your opinion on my response to the question. I believe it is post number 21ish. I can also elaborate more on certain things if need be, I know I can be unclear at times.
[/quote]
I liked your post 21, it did ramble a bit but I understood what you were saying, you shifted the posts (goal), because you didn't think the question took into consideration the nature of your god. In essence you showed that the god you believe in transcends the question put forth, which is limited to an understanding on humans (albiet an extremely powerful human). Your conclusion was that your god fails the omnipotent test of being able to create a rock so big that he cannot lift it, but that failure is not due to your god's failure to be omnipotent but merely the question's failure to provide a test of omnipotence with regards to the nature of your god.

Is that correct?

Be interesting to hear what Hanson says in response, I won't steal his thunder.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308123722' post='2253950']
I want my perfect island.
[/quote]
I think Guanilo's objection was even worse than the original argument, tbh.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308152525' post='2254015']
I think Guanilo's objection was even worse than the original argument, tbh.
[/quote]

iawtc

[BigJon16]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1308120272' post='2253944']
I don't necessarily think this debate is meant to be annoying, i think the logic problems are somewhat tongue in cheek, and can provide much literary and logic dancing from both sides of the argument. It can be enjoyed from a light hearted perspective rather than worrying about whether it proves that god does or doesn't exist.
[/quote]


Yes, well, I find that when it comes to debates, I am not very light hearted.

[sixpence]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1307530226' post='2251194']
This is the kind of question that a 3rd grader would ask someone just to be annoying.
[/quote]

LOL I was just going to say that I remember ...in like the second grade a girl asked this riddle.. I said obviously He could... but He could also then change His mind... haha

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1308103061' post='2253847']
In my experience, it's annoying because religious people have difficulty giving a satisfactory answer to it. It is the kind of question that a third grader would ask. That's probably because children are very good at asking very obvious, fundamental questions. They tend to not be very skilled at obfuscation.

That's not to say that the conclusions atheists try to derive from the problem's tricky nature are valid.
[/quote]

Those that ask the question "[i]can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it[/i]" have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Omnipotence power of God. Omnipotence is the power of God to effect whatever is not intrinsically impossible.[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm"]*[/url] An intrinsically impossibility is any action on the part of God which would be out of harmony with His nature and attributes and/or any action that would simultaneously connote mutually repellent elements, e.g. a square circle, an infinite creature, etc.[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251c.htm"]*[/url]

The question in effect asks if God can lie because God has revealed that He is the only Infinite and Eternal being. For God to create rock so big that even He could not lift it would mean the rock would have to have infinite and eternal mass. This is contrary to His nature and is intrinsically impossible. Because one it is against His nature to create another infinite when He is the only infinite being, and has no equal, the rock would be His equal or greater than Him. But also because a rock with infinite mass would have such a great force of gravity it would pull into itself all of creation and destroy it.

God cannot lie because as I stated earlier lying is not a power it is a weakness. To state that something is that is not is a lie, or to make something from what it is into what it is not is a lie (square circles, 4 angle triangles). The moment God lies He ceases to be all powerful.

Edited June 15, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[dairygirl4u2c]

so we have knight on record as saying 'no'.
God has a limit... he cannot make a rock so big that he cannot lift it.

there are questions about Jesus becoming man though, so he could engage in the physical. and i'm not otherwise sure it's impossible for God to create something physical in his form, and or that extends beyond his ability.... this seems at least possible to say he could become phyiscal and etc, not somehting inherently impossible like a square circle.
i know some say the incarnation is a paradox, or mystery etc... the same could be applied to God doing all these things that might seem beyond the purview of an infinite being.
i do appreciate knights wise words.

Edited June 15, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308152525' post='2254015']I think Guanilo's objection was even worse than the original argument, tbh.[/quote]For someone who doesn't understand philosophy or sarcasm, I'm not sure if I should dignify this with a reply. But to be generous; you are correct, that is why the argument was made, and that is why I made the comment.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat