the171 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 You should see my church,. I'll grab a picture, it looks more protestant than the baptist church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totus Tuus Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309408193' post='2260655'] Can someone point me to a place where the justification for destroying that church legitimately exists? The iconoclasm that was just exhibited is deplorable... I will weep a thousand tears over the loss of such a beautiful church. [/quote] Wow. I've heard a lot from you, but condemning us as iconoclasts is TOTALLY out of order. Did you even CONSIDER whether those of us who saw the new church as justified, and *gasp* beautiful, might have recognized the fact that the old church could have been "destroyed* by a natural disaster or fire? I am seriously sick of you hijacking threads with biting criticisms of those around you. Please consider whether you are making logical sense before you do so in the future, because this comment alone was definitely not logical, justified, or merited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1309409076' post='2260663'] Wow. I've heard a lot from you, but condemning us as iconoclasts is TOTALLY out of order. Did you even CONSIDER whether those of us who saw the new church as justified, and *gasp* beautiful, might have recognized the fact that the old church could have been "destroyed* by a natural disaster or fire? I am seriously sick of you hijacking threads with biting criticisms of those around you. Please consider whether you are making logical sense before you do so in the future, because this comment alone was definitely not logical, justified, or merited. [/quote] I'm pretty sure I didn't call YOU an iconoclast, but rather those who destroyed that church. Regardless of the mode of renovation, it is a sad example of "Catholic" architecture... I don't have to CONSIDER anything....I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm seriously sick of you judging the hell out of everything that I say. So, BACK OFF!!! So, before you go admonishing me, you should probably look into the context in which I post. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. [url="http://www.stjoechurch.com/"]St. Joseph Proto-Cathedral[/url] was renovated in 1980. There was no fire or natural disaster, except for the architect. Edited June 30, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 They did something similar to our Cathedral here in Dallas. So sad.[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309409376' post='2260667'] I'm pretty sure I didn't call YOU an iconoclast, but rather those who destroyed that church. Regardless of the mode of renovation, it is a sad example of Catholic architecture... I don't have to CONSIDER anything....I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm seriously sick of you judging the hell out of everything that I say. So, BACK OFF!!! So, before you go admonishing me, you should probably look into the context in which I post. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBFuo-U54Lc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 On one hand it does look a little less...intimidating? Don't get me wrong, I'll swoon over any church that looks as gorgeous as that one did in the '30s. At least the tabernacle is still in the center! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totus Tuus Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309409376' post='2260667'] I'm pretty sure I didn't call YOU an iconoclast, but rather those who destroyed that church. Regardless of the mode of renovation, it is a sad example of Catholic architecture... I don't have to CONSIDER anything....I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm seriously sick of you judging the hell out of everything that I say. So, BACK OFF!!! So, before you go admonishing me, you should probably look into the context in which I post. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. [url="http://www.stjoechurch.com/"]St. Joseph Proto-Cathedral[/url] was renovated in 1980. There was no fire or natural disaster, except for the architect. [/quote] "The context in which you post" is ambiguous when you say things like, "The iconoclasm JUST EXHIBITED is deplorable." Did you not think that we, who are used to being attacked you, would not interpret that as an attack on us? I did. So no, I don't feel unjustified for interpreting it that way. There was precedent for it. And I actually DO have an idea of what I am talking about, since an example of natural disaster necessitating renovations (which you would definitely consider iconoclastic) exists right in the middle of my hometown. I'm entitled to my opinion, too, and I'm not going to back off when I, or my beliefs (including the belief I have that what was exhibited in the photos was NOT iconoclasm). Brother, peace. You obviously have a lot of animosity towards the people around you. I apologize for setting you off, but I definitely feel justified in taking offense given precedent. I'm bowing out now, God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Something that was eye-opening for me was to read issues of the journal [i]Concilium[/i] from the '60s and '70s. [i]Concilium[/i] was founded by Rahner, Schillebeeckx, Kung, Congar, and others and was quite trend-setting back in the day. They would regularly dedicate issues to themes related to the reconstruction of Catholicism via liturgy, architecture, and the like. Another fascinating activity is to peruse old issues of [i]Worship[/i] from the time of Diekmann's editorship. Of course volumes of [i]Orate Fratres[/i] of the '50s and early '60s are similarly worthwhile. I imagine such resources could be found at any Catholic university library (I can testify to FUS). I had started to accumulate a nice private collection of old liturgical journals as part of my now dormant research project. As far as church guttings go the one pictured above isn't bad at all. I do however sympathize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 P.S. I wonder what happened to teh high altar. I hope there was no desecration involved. I've heard one too many horror stories about that. smh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1309410035' post='2260673'] "The context in which you post" is ambiguous when you say things like, "The iconoclasm JUST EXHIBITED is deplorable." Did you not think that we, who are used to being attacked you, would not interpret that as an attack on us? I did. So no, I don't feel unjustified for interpreting it that way. There was precedent for it. And I actually DO have an idea of what I am talking about, since an example of natural disaster necessitating renovations (which you would definitely consider iconoclastic) exists right in the middle of my hometown. I'm entitled to my opinion, too, and I'm not going to back off when I, or my beliefs (including the belief I have that what was exhibited in the photos was NOT iconoclasm). Brother, peace. You obviously have a lot of animosity towards the people around you. I apologize for setting you off, but I definitely feel justified in taking offense given precedent. I'm bowing out now, God bless. [/quote] That is a gigantic load of carp. There was nothing ambiguous in what I said. I made a comment on the original post. It was not directed at you and it was not directed at anyone else. Attack? Nice assumption. Why is my defending the Church and her teaching discerned as an attack? Nevermind, that question just answered itself. You don't feel. You don't feel. You don't feel....well, I can't cater to the 2000 feelings on this board at any one given minute, otherwise I would drive myself crazy. I was not after you. I was not trolling you. I was not even egaging you. However, you feel that you can just lash out at me. And you can feel justified by it? Carp. There are natural disasters all over the place....I work in a town of about 2000 where a tornado hit this spring and leveled multiple homes. I grew up in a town that has chronic flooding from the two rivers which join just south of town....but you don't see me dragging it into the middle of this....oh my goodness (don't blasphemy)!!!! The only animosity I have is toward people who are constantly badgering me about being too Catholic....I don't care. Show me ONE thing that I have said that is at odds with the Catholic Church and I'll recant it. Show me. You're right, you do have a right to your opinion, but sometimes it is best that you don't voice it, lest you are willing to get a response and it may be a response you don't like. Thank you for the apology, it is accepted, but your justification is false....there was not one single attempt at making you or anyone else on this forum seem like an iconoclast. That is your mistake in judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 The pictures aren't taken from exactly the same distance, so it's hard to see the overall effect with the columns, lights etc. I think that taking away the high altar (sorry, don't know all the correct terms for reredos, cover, etc etc - and don't need to be given them either thank you very much) was a shame but understandable since the Mass changed after Vat 2, but I do like the simplicity and the colour scheme and the way the stained glass windows stand out more in the second one. I do lament the loss of the standing crucifix but I think the renovation is a lot better than many I have seen. The one I was baptised in was changed so much that I didn't even recognise it when I went back there, and the tabernacle ended up in some metal monstrosity that looked like a really ugly renovated Tardis! I thought it was some science fiction thing standing in the corner and when my sister-in-law asked me what it was, it took me a moment to realize that it was the Tabernacle! lol So, although I don't think churches need never be renovated, and I can understand why they changed a lot of altars after the Council, I still prefer the high altar there so that both forms of the Mass can be offered. Before my Latin Mass church was given the sole use of whole church, they used to share with the NO Mass there (it was attached to a school and most of the parents wanted the NO so it was still offered as well as the EF) - they used to have a removable altar for the NO which was put to one side for the EF (the church had never been renovated and still had the high altar). Once the EF had been given sole use of the church the priest did some renovations and painting himself - some good and some I didn't like. He took away the angels at each side of the altar, which I liked but he did bring back the Communion rail so that was good! I don't think there is ever going to be a time when everyone is pleased but some renovations are better than others! And yes, this is just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1309410228' post='2260675'] P.S. I wonder what happened to teh high altar. I hope there was no desecration involved. I've heard one too many horror stories about that. smh... [/quote] I hope not either. I know of one parish in Minnesota where the mensa from the old high altar went into making the curbstops for the handicap stalls for cars. No lie, I've seen it with my own eyes...if I can find a picture I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1309410845' post='2260679'] The pictures aren't taken from exactly the same distance, so it's hard to see the overall effect with the columns, lights etc. I think that taking away the high altar (sorry, don't know all the correct terms for reredos, cover, etc etc - and don't need to be given them either thank you very much) was a shame but understandable since the Mass changed after Vat 2, but I do like the simplicity and the colour scheme and the way the stained glass windows stand out more in the second one. I do lament the loss of the standing crucifix but I think the renovation is a lot better than many I have seen. The one I was baptised in was changed so much that I didn't even recognise it when I went back there, and the tabernacle ended up in some metal monstrosity that looked like a really ugly renovated Tardis! I thought it was some science fiction thing standing in the corner and when my sister-in-law asked me what it was, it took me a moment to realize that it was the Tabernacle! lol [/quote] Contrary to the beliefs on many worlds, the Doctor is not and has never been God. But I agree, it's hard to tell from the pics what happened to those smaller side shrines. It looks as if the alcoves are still there from the tiny bit we can see at the edges, but given the extent of the renovations I'm not sure if the contents would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309408193' post='2260655'] Can someone point me to a place where the justification for destroying that church legitimately exists? The iconoclasm that was just exhibited is deplorable... I will weep a thousand tears over the loss of such a beautiful church. [/quote] The justification is in Modernism... shhhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309413204' post='2260693'] The justification is in Modernism... shhhh [/quote] Really? Really?!?!?! Really. Edited June 30, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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