Luigi Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 I've stayed out of, or kept a very low profile in, [i]any[/i] thread that Cam involved himself since he came back. I've had him on Ignore for a couple of weeks, because I've never met anyone so close-minded and simultaneously so enamored of his own opinions in my entire put-together. But that's not what bothers me as much as... His discourse style. 1. Blanket statements 2. Absolute statements (meaning over-the-top, way-too-strong, like... oh, I don't know, maybe "Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy" or whatever it was he named himself) 3. Vocabulary choices that make him sound like he's blowing his top - at the Phatmasser he's responding to - instead of making reasoned statements 4. A lack of qualifiers such as "usually, often, sometimes, many people" These discourse tactics contribute to the readers' sense that Cam views himself as superior to his readers - perhaps smarter, but definitely more knowledgeable ('infinitely more knowledgeable' would fit his vocabulary choices I've seen), older (42!), better educated (I studied in Rome!), better travelled (I've been to four continents!), and certainly RIGHT, whereas those of us who disagree with him are perhaps less intelligent, but definitely less knowledgeable, younger, less educated, less travelled, and WRONG. His discourse style implies that he thinks his opinion is The Absolute and Everlasting Truth - really, I guess that's what we should expect from The Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy. And facts are facts, but opinions are just opinions. From Cam's style, he doesn't seem to know which is which - he treats all subjects along the spectrum as Absolute and Everlasting Truth. And I have never - not even once, in any thread, on any topic - read him admit that he was wrong. Everybody else has, some of us frequently, many of us quite quickly, but never Cam. And don't pull up his supposed apology -that was an offer to apologize, but it wasn't an apology. And [i]please [/i]don't let me even start on that week-or-two-long bitterly sarcastic campaign of his, "I love you, my brother in Christ" - for the love of all that holy! So if Totus Tuus responded to Cam in a discourse style as strong as his own, it should be both allowed and perfectly understandable. But Cam never could take what he dished out - and true communication, especially on a chat board like this, is a two-way street, not a top-down flow of correct information from the Lord & Master of All Orthodoxy to the poor, benighted, ignorant, & willful post-Vaticanites. If anyone talked to him like he talked to us, Cam was immediately and completely insulted. Then he'd pull another underhanded discourse tactic - usually, "You misunderstood what I said" (which again implies that he's smart and we're too stupid to understand written English), or "I wasn't talking about/addressing you personally" because he apparently doesn't understand persons. From what I've seen, the only thing he (thinks he) understands is Vatican documents - and the older, the better. He said that the people who redesigned the pictured church were iconoclasts. You've graciously defined iconoclasts for us, but you neglected to include real examples. NOBODY broke into the pictured church with the intention of destroying icons, burning crosses, smashing stained glass windows, hammering statues to smithereens, or anything else - [i]that's[/i] what iconoclasts do, the kind of things Communists did to churches all over eastern Europe and Nazis did to synagogues wherever they went. The pastor, designers, and builders involved with the transformation of the pictured church simply updated the style of the church according to Vatican II norms - simple and noble. If Cam thinks it was a really, really bad idea, he could've said so without pulling "iconoclasts" out of his backside - other people did exactly that. Totus' point was that, by labelling the transformation of the church as iconoclastic, Cam was also labelling as iconoclasts anyone who considered the transformation less than an abomination in the sight of the Lord, as Cam does. And Totus was right - Cam doesn't say "All of you who think this is acceptable are iconoclasts," but he makes a blanket statement, in terms too strong, using loaded terminology. And poor ol' Totus, being just a person, took it personally. Followed by Cam's standard, "Golly, I wasn't talking about YOU; you misunderstood me; I'll give you poor, benighted, less-educated, buggers a lesson in church-architecture-as-expression-of-theology because I know all about that, and then you'll see why I am correct and you are wrong" on this matter of [i]opinion[/i]. We already knew. Someone had the complete temerity to challenge Cam's opinion, and he over-reacted with BACK OFF, SISTER! Somebody should said it to [i]him[/i] a long time ago. There are plenty of people in this Phamily with whom I disagree, on plenty of topics. And yet we talk to each other civilly. We discuss our ideas, opinions, reasons, and approaches. We share each other's worries, challenges, successes, failures, fears, and joys. We supply each other with information if we have something to contribute. We get snarky sometimes, and maybe even cantankerous. But underneath it all and above it all, we consider ourselves brothers & sisters - in Christ, in faith, in the Catholic Church, in the Phatmass Phamily. But Cam - he's in a class [i]almost[/i] by himself. Close-minded; rigidly opinionated; a desperate need to be respected and viewed as an authority figure; can't stay away from this board - he's got you pimping for him to get him back on Phatmass because he can't stand not being able to preach at us; never, ever, ever, wrong; accusatory; broad-brush, over-the-top writing style; blame-the-victim discourse moves; and absolutely humorless - I've never met anyone before who had absolutely no sense of humor. And at the age of 42, if he hasn't figured out how to have a civil, rational, reasonable discussion - or even argument - with other people... I doubt that he will ever figure it out. It occurred to me the day after Cam was banned, that he is essentially a misanthrope. He just doesn't like people. He likes documents. He likes rules. I have no doubt whatsoever that he loves God. He just doesn't like God's people, unless they follow all the rules in the documents. And most of us will never be able to follow all the rules in all the documents all the time. Because we're people, not angels. But I'm thankful that God knows that already, even if Cam doesn't - God being omniscient and Cam being only intelligent, well-educated, and and well-read. This is probably hard for you to read - you said you've been a friend of his for fifteen years - and I'm sorry if I've said some hard things about your friend. He probably has a lot of really wonderful traits - maybe he's just one big huggable puppy. But I know him only from Phatmass and what he's written here. I've stayed out of his way because, originally, I was afraid of him. Now I think he wouldn't listen to anything I say, and I don't believe anything he says, so it would just be a waste of time. But I [b][i]pray[/i][/b] - and I ask all the saints and angels in heaven to pray with me - that dUSt makes Cam's Phatmass ban permanent.
Jaime Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309587049' post='2262014'] I've stayed out of, or kept a very low profile in, [i]any[/i] thread that Cam involved himself since he came back. I've had him on Ignore for a couple of weeks, because I've never met anyone so close-minded and simultaneously so enamored of his own opinions in my entire put-together. But that's not what bothers me as much as... His discourse style. 1. Blanket statements 2. Absolute statements (meaning over-the-top, way-too-strong, like... oh, I don't know, maybe "Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy" or whatever it was he named himself) 3. Vocabulary choices that make him sound like he's blowing his top - at the Phatmasser he's responding to - instead of making reasoned statements 4. A lack of qualifiers such as "usually, often, sometimes, many people" These discourse tactics contribute to the readers' sense that Cam views himself as superior to his readers - perhaps smarter, but definitely more knowledgeable ('infinitely more knowledgeable' would fit his vocabulary choices I've seen), older (42!), better educated (I studied in Rome!), better travelled (I've been to four continents!), and certainly RIGHT, whereas those of us who disagree with him are perhaps less intelligent, but definitely less knowledgeable, younger, less educated, less travelled, and WRONG. His discourse style implies that he thinks his opinion is The Absolute and Everlasting Truth - really, I guess that's what we should expect from The Lord and Master of All Orthodoxy. And facts are facts, but opinions are just opinions. From Cam's style, he doesn't seem to know which is which - he treats all subjects along the spectrum as Absolute and Everlasting Truth. And I have never - not even once, in any thread, on any topic - read him admit that he was wrong. Everybody else has, some of us frequently, many of us quite quickly, but never Cam. And don't pull up his supposed apology -that was an offer to apologize, but it wasn't an apology. And [i]please [/i]don't let me even start on that week-or-two-long bitterly sarcastic campaign of his, "I love you, my brother in Christ" - for the love of all that holy! So if Totus Tuus responded to Cam in a discourse style as strong as his own, it should be both allowed and perfectly understandable. But Cam never could take what he dished out - and true communication, especially on a chat board like this, is a two-way street, not a top-down flow of correct information from the Lord & Master of All Orthodoxy to the poor, benighted, ignorant, & willful post-Vaticanites. If anyone talked to him like he talked to us, Cam was immediately and completely insulted. Then he'd pull another underhanded discourse tactic - usually, "You misunderstood what I said" (which again implies that he's smart and we're too stupid to understand written English), or "I wasn't talking about/addressing you personally" because he apparently doesn't understand persons. From what I've seen, the only thing he (thinks he) understands is Vatican documents - and the older, the better. He said that the people who redesigned the pictured church were iconoclasts. You've graciously defined iconoclasts for us, but you neglected to include real examples. NOBODY broke into the pictured church with the intention of destroying icons, burning crosses, smashing stained glass windows, hammering statues to smithereens, or anything else - [i]that's[/i] what iconoclasts do, the kind of things Communists did to churches all over eastern Europe and Nazis did to synagogues wherever they went. The pastor, designers, and builders involved with the transformation of the pictured church simply updated the style of the church according to Vatican II norms - simple and noble. If Cam thinks it was a really, really bad idea, he could've said so without pulling "iconoclasts" out of his backside - other people did exactly that. Totus' point was that, by labelling the transformation of the church as iconoclastic, Cam was also labelling as iconoclasts anyone who considered the transformation less than an abomination in the sight of the Lord, as Cam does. And Totus was right - Cam doesn't say "All of you who think this is acceptable are iconoclasts," but he makes a blanket statement, in terms too strong, using loaded terminology. And poor ol' Totus, being just a person, took it personally. Followed by Cam's standard, "Golly, I wasn't talking about YOU; you misunderstood me; I'll give you poor, benighted, less-educated, buggers a lesson in church-architecture-as-expression-of-theology because I know all about that, and then you'll see why I am correct and you are wrong" on this matter of [i]opinion[/i]. We already knew. Someone had the complete temerity to challenge Cam's opinion, and he over-reacted with BACK OFF, SISTER! Somebody should said it to [i]him[/i] a long time ago. There are plenty of people in this Phamily with whom I disagree, on plenty of topics. And yet we talk to each other civilly. We discuss our ideas, opinions, reasons, and approaches. We share each other's worries, challenges, successes, failures, fears, and joys. We supply each other with information if we have something to contribute. We get snarky sometimes, and maybe even cantankerous. But underneath it all and above it all, we consider ourselves brothers & sisters - in Christ, in faith, in the Catholic Church, in the Phatmass Phamily. But Cam - he's in a class [i]almost[/i] by himself. Close-minded; rigidly opinionated; a desperate need to be respected and viewed as an authority figure; can't stay away from this board - he's got you pimping for him to get him back on Phatmass because he can't stand not being able to preach at us; never, ever, ever, wrong; accusatory; broad-brush, over-the-top writing style; blame-the-victim discourse moves; and absolutely humorless - I've never met anyone before who had absolutely no sense of humor. And at the age of 42, if he hasn't figured out how to have a civil, rational, reasonable discussion - or even argument - with other people... I doubt that he will ever figure it out. It occurred to me the day after Cam was banned, that he is essentially a misanthrope. He just doesn't like people. He likes documents. He likes rules. I have no doubt whatsoever that he loves God. He just doesn't like God's people, unless they follow all the rules in the documents. And most of us will never be able to follow all the rules in all the documents all the time. Because we're people, not angels. But I'm thankful that God knows that already, even if Cam doesn't - God being omniscient and Cam being only intelligent, well-educated, and and well-read. This is probably hard for you to read - you said you've been a friend of his for fifteen years - and I'm sorry if I've said some hard things about your friend. He probably has a lot of really wonderful traits - maybe he's just one big huggable puppy. But I know him only from Phatmass and what he's written here. I've stayed out of his way because, originally, I was afraid of him. Now I think he wouldn't listen to anything I say, and I don't believe anything he says, so it would just be a waste of time. But I [b][i]pray[/i][/b] - and I ask all the saints and angels in heaven to pray with me - that dUSt makes Cam's Phatmass ban permanent. [/quote] Well first of all good for you for putting him on ignore. He can be scary and that's what the ignore feature is for. But let's get a couple of things straight Luigi. I don't "pimp" for anyone. I'm not trying to get Cam reinstated. I'm trying to show people like you, dUSt and franciscanheart that forgiveness can be a good thing. Especially if its asked for. Pardon me for offering unsolicited advice but I would suggest that you quit praying for Camster's permanent ban and perhaps ask the saints to help you to learn how to forgive.
Luigi Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1309590706' post='2262023'] Well first of all good for you for putting him on ignore. He can be scary and that's what the ignore feature is for. But let's get a couple of things straight Luigi. I don't "pimp" for anyone. I'm not trying to get Cam reinstated. I'm trying to show people like you, dUSt and Hughey that forgiveness can be a good thing. Especially if its asked for. Pardon me for offering unsolicited advice but I would suggest that you quit praying for Camster's permanent ban and perhaps ask the saints to help you to learn how to forgive. [/quote] I probably shouldn't have used "pimping" - "defending," or "going to bat for," or other choices would have done just as well. It was late, and I was tired & somewhat upset. I do pray for Cam every day - by name - when I pray for the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, deacons, seminarians, theologians, philosophers, preachers, catechists, and teachers, and for vocations. I include all the Phatmassers in that prayer, too. I believe in forgiveness, too - been Catholic all my life. The problem for me is how to balance forgiveness with the old adage that tigers don't change their stripes. My folks worked & worked & worked with - and forgave & forgave & forgave - my brother that wound up dying in the car accident because he was high - they never gave up on him until he died. Maybe that should be my approach here, but it's not - Cam's not my son, I feel connected to him by faith & charity & all that, but I've got my limits, too.
To Jesus Through Mary Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309616166' post='2262102'] but I've got my limits, too. [/quote] And that is where grace comes in. I'm pretty new to PM (But I have read most of the posts in the last 6 weeks), so I have little-to-no-room to talk. But I was pretty blown away at the harshness towards Cam. Yeah, I see your point on the lack of tact and over-generalities, but don't see much here when talking about him. But again I was here before 6 weeks ago, so probably much more to the story. But from an outside perspective, just seems a bit over the top. Anyway PAX
Jaime Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1309616166' post='2262102'] I probably shouldn't have used "pimping" - "defending," or "going to bat for," or other choices would have done just as well. It was late, and I was tired & somewhat upset. I do pray for Cam every day - by name - when I pray for the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, deacons, seminarians, theologians, philosophers, preachers, catechists, and teachers, and for vocations. I include all the Phatmassers in that prayer, too. I believe in forgiveness, too - been Catholic all my life. The problem for me is how to balance forgiveness with the old adage that tigers don't change their stripes. My folks worked & worked & worked with - and forgave & forgave & forgave - my brother that wound up dying in the car accident because he was high - they never gave up on him until he died. Maybe that should be my approach here, but it's not - Cam's not my son, I feel connected to him by faith & charity & all that, but I've got my limits, too. [/quote] I get that Luigi. I really do. We all have our personal hurts that adds flaws to our lives. there are folks on PM that I haven't gotten along with. With some we've made our apologies and moved on. With some it hasn't happened yet and it may never happen. That's a part of life. So if individuals on this site have a hard time forgiving Cam, I have some empathy towards that. If this was not a Catholic site, I wouldn't say a word. The bigger problem that I have is with those who have been charged with running the place. dUSt wants this place to be a ministry tool for conversion. I spent 10 years working professionally in ministry and the one thing that I learned is forgiveness is at the very core of our Church. When I was in youth ministry I had to set an example of forgiveness even when it was hard. Because it was my job to set the example. There were times when that was the hardest thing I had to do. There are some who run this place that genuinely set an example of forgiveness. But dUSt, Franciscanheart and some others that did not. And being in charge means that you have to set an example. My friendship with Cam, dUSt and some of the mods put me in a unique position. I was able to assure them that Cam was sincere with his desire to change and to be forgiven. Some chose to do so and some did not. dUSt and Franciscanheart decided to show their lack of forgiveness publicly in this thread. Its easy to forgive the people we like. Even the heathens can do that!! Christ calls us to do more. I'm very sorry about your brother Luigi. That is a heartbreaking story and I'm sorry that you have to live with that.
MithLuin Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 In my opinion, [b]Cam[/b] was fun to talk to and rile up (because you always knew he would take the bait), and he was knowledgable enough to have good input on topics. Also in my opinion, he had a habit of derailing threads. Not only would he bring things around to his favorite topics, but he'd bring them around to [i]himself[/i] as a topic. A discussion of appropriate attire at mass in the context of Life Teen could easily give rise to a list of what is meant by 'Sunday best'. But why did it involve pictures of him in liturgical garb at a Latin mass? That wasn't the only thread where he posted such pictures. A discussion of what types of hymns people prefer at mass would be derailed with an argument that hymns have no business being part of the mass anyway. I've only come across posts by Cam recently (in the past few weeks), so I'm not sure what all the history is. But strangely enough, I know that he was in seminary, I know that he's attended mass in over 10 different languages (I'm sorry, 'assisted at'), I know that he studied in Rome..... [I will add that this particular thread being derailed with a discussion of him is not really his fault.] His posting style was abrasive, and he used a triumphant tone to bully those who disagreed with him. Or called their mental health into question. He was tenacious, and seldom backed down. So, the only way the thread/conversation would stop being an argument would be if others stopped arguing with him. He was here to debate with other Catholics, so the Catholic vs Catholic debate ban was not going to work for him. Phatmass is a community, and I don't feel [b]dUSt[/b] should feel obligated to accept everyone who wants to be a part of that community. At the very least, a long cooling off period seems indicated. As Christians, we must forgive. But also as Christians, we must be willing to accept our penances as the consequences for our sin. True, I've never been banned from a website. I don't know what that's like. It probably hurts. I've been chastized for posts occasionally (here and elsewhere), and accepted the edits (while apologizing and not saying the same again). If someone does not respond to requests for changing their behavior, asking them to leave is the reasonable reaction. Forgiving doesn't mean allowing your community to be overrun. I agree that the hallmark of a Christian community is that it welcomes everyone...literally...but not everyone can remain in the community without changing. Generally, I would not say something so publically about someone who cannot defend himself. So, I'm probably out of line myself. But I did (more or less) enjoy my discussions with Cam in the past week or so, and felt I should say that not everyone found him simply hurtful.
Luigi Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1309629939' post='2262160'] I'm very sorry about your brother Luigi. That is a heartbreaking story and I'm sorry that you have to live with that. [/quote] Thanks, but .. the two of us didn't get along. At all. However, I do admire my folks' perseverance, and their love. Their forgiveness was not, however, productive.
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 Forgiveness is one thing... but it doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, rebuke someone out for repeated un-Christian behavior. The same behavior for which once was asked forgiveness. Perhaps some were harsh to Cam- I don't know. I do know that he came in here with an attitude. Then he began to mock everyone. Asked for forgiveness. And then began posting with an incredible lack of charity. I honestly don't think anyone was holding anything against Cam that was prior to his apology. The rebukes were for continued lack of charity. This is all tough... I don't like what has happened, but I'm not sure it was avoidable. All I know is that continued prayers are needed, for all involved.
Vincent Vega Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309664403' post='2262452'] Forgiveness is one thing... but it doesn't mean we can't, or shouldn't, rebuke someone out for repeated un-Christian behavior. The same behavior for which once was asked forgiveness. [/quote] This. Contrition is not contrition without the intention to correct one's faults.
BG45 Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 I know I looked at his blog to see if he said anything, and he did...ad nauseam. Not linking to it, but I had to say I lost almost any pity I might've had when I realized he had locked his blog post about it all so no one could dare say a word against him. Every other post on the blog is comment enabled.
faithcecelia Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 I would have loved to have had more discussions with him, I really respect his knowledge and am very grateful for his constructive comments and advice on my thread about my first Tridentine Mass. However, I admit I had been very hesitant about posting it as I knew he would respond, and on virtually every other thread where we had both commented, he had accused me of heresy! My faith is such that this does not unsettle me, and indeed had become a running joke with some of my priest friends, but it is the sort of thing that could easily have upset someone, and is the sort of thing that can lead to people leaving the Church.
Jaime Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1309680935' post='2262547'] I would have loved to have had more discussions with him, I really respect his knowledge and am very grateful for his constructive comments and advice on my thread about my first Tridentine Mass. However, I admit I had been very hesitant about posting it as I knew he would respond, and on virtually every other thread where we had both commented, he had accused me of heresy! My faith is such that this does not unsettle me, and indeed had become a running joke with some of my priest friends, but it is the sort of thing that could easily have upset someone, and is the sort of thing that can lead to people leaving the Church. [/quote] To be clear, he did not accuse you of heresy or being a heretic. You were making a statement that was in line with a heretical teaching. You were in fact speaking a heresy as defined by the Church. But that is a huge and vast difference from being accused of heresy. I know people who were defending their dissertation for a PhD in Theology who have unintentionally done something similar to what you did. But my point is not to defend Cam's prior actions. My point is to point out where forgiveness was lacking by role models and others on Phatmass
Noel's angel Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) When are we going to drop this? He's gone. He was at one point a very positive influence here, that changed, and now he's gone. Let's move on. Edited July 3, 2011 by Noel's angel
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 I'm sorry, but I don't see where it is fruitful or beneficial to continue talking about Cam like this. I am closing this thread, it's clearly no longer about a renovated Church.
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