Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='MarisStella' timestamp='1309447535' post='2260806'] [...] [size="1"] P. S. I didn't want to start anything here and I'm sad that this had to turn into a fight. I probably should have known better but oh well. Anyway, I'm sorry.[/size] [/quote] It is important to understand that you didn't start the fight. It is important to understand that standing up for the truth of the matter is important and you did that. It is important to understand that true charity sometimes means we show and say things that don't make everyone feel comfortable. Christian charity is first found in the truth of the matter and not in the emotion of it. You were right to post that, if your original idea was to show the difference between what was and what is....don't feel bad because a few don't share your view...and fear not, your instinct was right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I love old churches. When I enter them, I can feel the prayers of all those who came before me. But, your renovated church is beautiful in its own way. If I walked in, the brightness would lighten my mood and would remind me of the joy of Christ. I would have loved the old church, but Christ still obviously lives in the renovated church, and that is what is most important. For me, it is not this type of renovation of churches that makes me weep, but instead, new churches that are made of concrete using "brutalist" architectural styles or that look like high school gyms, make me weep. Some new churches need to be simple because the congregation cannot afford more, but "simple" does not have to be brutalist or secular. (And, your renovated church is far from being either brutalist or secular.) One thing I noticed. In one of the pictures you posted, it looks as if the pews still have kneelers. The high altar and the altar rail may be gone, but you can still kneel in prayer at your pew, and the priest could give communion to those who wanted to kneel by using the first pew (awkward, but possible). Most importantly, because of the kneelers, I would not mistake this church for a Baptist or Presbyterian church. Edited June 30, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryansouf504 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "The Church has not adopted any particular style of art as her own.... The art of our own times from every race and country shall also be given free scope in the Church, provided it bring to the task the reverence and honor due to the sacred buildings and rites". -[url="http://www.adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html"][b][i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i][/b][/url], no. 123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309450183' post='2260838'] It is important to understand that you didn't start the fight. It is important to understand that standing up for the truth of the matter is important and you did that. It is important to understand that true charity sometimes means we show and say things that don't make everyone feel comfortable. Christian charity is first found in the truth of the matter and not in the emotion of it. You were right to post that, if your original idea was to show the difference between what was and what is....don't feel bad because a few don't share your view...and fear not, your instinct was right.... [/quote] You use your knowledge as defense for trolling and harsh criticism. You might be right, but you're not at all pastoral. Frankly, I understand completely why people don't listen to you, become defensive, or downright ignore you. I think part of the reason Pope John Paul II was so loved and had such a great impact on our world is because he LOVED the people he was serving enough to HUMBLE himself before them. He knew he spoke Truth, and he took care to do it with KINDNESS - EVEN WHEN it wasn't required of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='ryansouf504' timestamp='1309451409' post='2260855'] "The Church has not adopted any particular style of art as her own.... The art of our own times from every race and country shall also be given free scope in the Church, provided it bring to the task the reverence and honor due to the sacred buildings and rites". -[url="http://www.adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html"][b][i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i][/b][/url], no. 123 [/quote] Let's try quoting the whole thing..... [quote][font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]The Church has not adopted any particular style of art as her very own; she has admitted styles from every period according to the natural talents and circumstances of peoples, and the needs of the various rites. [b]Thus, in the course of the centuries, she has brought into being a treasury of art which must be very carefully preserved.[/b] The art of our own days, coming from every race and region, shall also be given free scope in the Church, provided that it adorns the sacred buildings and [b]holy rites with due reverence and honor; thereby it is enabled to contribute its own voice to that wonderful chorus of praise in honor of the Catholic faith sung by great men in times gone by.[/b][/size][/font][/quote] [url="http://www.adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html"]source[/url] To skip the bolded parts does not speak to the truth of the document. While the Church has not adopted any one style, that doesn't mean that traditional styles need be abandoned or that they need be renovated, simply because "the times change." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309451601' post='2260857'] You use your knowledge as defense for trolling and harsh criticism. You might be right, but you're not at all pastoral. Frankly, I understand completely why people don't listen to you, become defensive, or downright ignore you. I think part of the reason Pope John Paul II was so loved and had such a great impact on our world is because he LOVED the people he was serving enough to HUMBLE himself before them. He knew he spoke Truth, and he took care to do it with KINDNESS - EVEN WHEN it wasn't required of him. [/quote] Franciscanheart--Thank-you for saying this. I've been trying for weeks (months) to try to find the right way to say what you have just said, but you have said it much better than I ever could. Also, I knew that anything I said would fall on deaf ears, because I am not respected by this poster because I am not Catholic. And, yet, I have wanted to say it out of LOVE, because I know the poster gets frustrated many times when he is not listened to, and I don't think he truly understands why that happens and feels it is totally the fault of the person he is trying to "instruct." Virtually all the time, HOW you say something, and the spirit in which you say it, is as important or MORE important than what you say. It took me YEARS to learn that, and in the meantime, my career and personal relationships suffered as a result. Edited June 30, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309451601' post='2260857'] You use your knowledge as defense for trolling and harsh criticism. You might be right, but you're not at all pastoral. Frankly, I understand completely why people don't listen to you, become defensive, or downright ignore you. I think part of the reason Pope John Paul II was so loved and had such a great impact on our world is because he LOVED the people he was serving enough to HUMBLE himself before them. He knew he spoke Truth, and he took care to do it with KINDNESS - EVEN WHEN it wasn't required of him. [/quote] And I'm not a pastor. I'm a poster on a forum. So, perhaps if I'm shown a little respect, I'll show some back. As it is, I've not been I've not been shown very much since making amends. So, frankly hughey, the whole, "you're not pastoral so we will slam you and it's ok," mentality is just a little self serving. So, perhaps my words might sting a little or even a lot, but those who are harsh toward me, sting too, but I don't see much admonishing toward them, just justification for their actions...wonder why that is, perhaps you answer that for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309451944' post='2260859'] [quote name='ryansouf504' timestamp='1309451409' post='2260855'] "The Church has not adopted any particular style of art as her own.... The art of our own times from every race and country shall also be given free scope in the Church, provided it bring to the task the reverence and honor due to the sacred buildings and rites". -[url="http://www.adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html"][b][i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i][/b][/url], no. 123 [/quote] Let's try quoting the whole thing..... [quote]The Church has not adopted any particular style of art as her very own; she has admitted styles from every period according to the natural talents and circumstances of peoples, and the needs of the various rites. [b]Thus, in the course of the centuries, she has brought into being a treasury of art which must be very carefully preserved.[/b] The art of our own days, coming from every race and region, shall also be given free scope in the Church, provided that it adorns the sacred buildings and [b]holy rites with due reverence and honor; thereby it is enabled to contribute its own voice to that wonderful chorus of praise in honor of the Catholic faith sung by great men in times gone by.[/b][/quote] [url="http://www.adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html"]source[/url] To skip the bolded parts does not speak to the truth of the document. While the Church has not adopted any one style, that doesn't mean that traditional styles need be abandoned or that they need be renovated, simply because "the times change." [/quote] Interesting thing you left un-bolded: [quote]...she has admitted styles from every period according to the natural talents and circumstances of peoples, and the needs of the [b]various rites[/b]...[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1309452202' post='2260863'] Thank-you for saying this. I've been trying for weeks (months) to try to find the right way to say what you have said, but you have said it much better than I ever could. Also, I knew that anything I said would fall on deaf ears, because I am not respected by this poster because I am not Catholic. And, yet, I have wanted to say it out of LOVE, because I know the poster gets frustrated many times when he is not listened to, and I don't think he truly understands why that happens. [/quote] I guess I'll just have to keep taking the criticism...that's fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309452286' post='2260866'] [url="http://www.adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html"]source[/url] [quote]To skip the bolded parts does not speak to the truth of the document. While the Church has not adopted any one style, that doesn't mean that traditional styles need be abandoned or that they need be renovated, simply because "the times change." [/quote] Interesting thing you left un-bolded: [/quote] Yah, but we're not talking about other Rites....we're talking about the Roman Rite. I don't see much in this thread about the Byzantines.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309452235' post='2260864'] And I'm not a pastor. I'm a poster on a forum. So, perhaps if I'm shown a little respect, I'll show some back. As it is, I've not been I've not been shown very much since making amends. So, frankly hughey, the whole, "you're not pastoral so we will slam you and it's ok," mentality is just a little self serving. So, perhaps my words might sting a little or even a lot, but those who are harsh toward me, sting too, but I don't see much admonishing toward them, just justification for their actions...wonder why that is, perhaps you answer that for me. [/quote] I didn't say anything about slamming you, I simply said that you do not take care to be pastoral, charitable, or kind when responding to others - even about things which were not contained in the original (intended or stated) topic. No one here enjoys being roughed up by you - not only because your words are often unnecessarily harsh and demeaning, but because (as far as I can see), our members (our "phamily") seek to do and be better. When someone is earnestly doing all they can to live a life for and of God, and they are made to feel a fool or an inferior, they are likely to recoil from even that which is Truth. When those who would instruct treat their "students" with absolutely no respect - talking to them in ways which imply inferiority - the student is apt to learn little. If one understands those around him - even makes an attempt at such, is capable of and practices charity, he is likely to convert hearts - not for his own glory, but for the greater glory of the Living and True God. As Audrey's friend said: Don't just be a tabernacle, be a [i][b]monstrance[/b][/i]! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309453016' post='2260876'] I didn't say anything about slamming you, I simply said that you do not take care to be pastoral, charitable, or kind when responding to others - even about things which were not contained in the original (intended or stated) topic. No one here enjoys being roughed up by you - not only because your words are often unnecessarily harsh and demeaning, but because (as far as I can see), our members (our "phamily") seek to do and be better. When someone is earnestly doing all they can to live a life for and of God, and they are made to feel a fool or an inferior, they are likely to recoil from even that which is Truth. When those who would instruct treat their "students" with absolutely no respect - talking to them in ways which imply inferiority - the student is apt to learn little. If one understands those around him - even makes an attempt at such, is capable of and practices charity, he is likely to convert hearts - not for his own glory, but for the greater glory of the Living and True God. As Audrey's friend said: Don't just be a tabernacle, be a [i][b]monstrance[/b][/i]! [/quote] No, but that is EXACTLY what is going on. You're justifying slamming me, when all I do is tell it like it is... Roughed up? I'm not roughing anyone up...I'm simply stating facts. I've tried to be more "emotional" but apparently that isn't working either... Unecessarily harsh....right. You cannot tell tone through a computer screen. You have no idea what my intent is, unless you ask, but people here have been notorious for feeling hurt, when someone says something they don't like.... As for teaching...I don't do that anyore. I simply defend what the Church teaches. I would like to, but I think that at this point I wouldn't be given an honest chance. So, I don't bother. Why should i? Because now I have two MODs who have publicly put me down rather than taking it to PM. That is really charitable. Maybe, when it comes to me, specifically, because you seem to have some sort of issue, you should get the plank out of your own eye before you start trying to take the splinter out of mine... I'm doing my best to make amends, but I can't catch a break, if one isn't given.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Oh, and thanks for causing a hijack on this thread...I'm sure that the OP really appreciates it. Why don't you just start a slam Cam thread and make it easier on everyone...that seems to be the consensus around here anyhow. Regardless of my attempts at reconciliation. smh... Edited June 30, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Wow, [b]Max[/b], that is simple! Perfectly clean and whitewashed looks a bit....sterile...to me. I wouldn't like that, though I do appreciate clean and simple. All this talk of architecture reminds me of a church in my city that [i]was[/i] a Baptist church before it was renovated as a Catholic church. You can immediately tell that something's funny when you walk in, because the ceiling is flat [img]http://www.stjudeshrine.org/images/webinterior.jpg[/img] I like Gothic and neo-Gothic. Light and airy + verticality is amesome. I'm not a fan of Rococo...it's way too...busy. Renovations go both ways. Some of the spaceship/barn churches built during the 70s (which truly are ugly) have been renovated to look more traditional now. I don't have before/after pictures of my parish, but I can assure you, the sanctuary looks much better now! The renovation of the parish where my parents went was to restore the neo-Gothic style and redo the paint away from battleship grey. It was very tasteful and a major improvement. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a baldachin, but it didn't fit with the church architecture and restoring the wooden high altar was much better. Pricey, but very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Both are beautiful and worthy. However, the first will make you drop to your knees MUCH quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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