dUSt Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309455657' post='2260915'] How is it that I get slammed by Totus Tuus and all of a sudden this turns into a rant on how I'm not charitable? IDIGI... This is my whole point.... [/quote] Maybe people think that if enough people tell you enough times, you may, at some point, realize it's true? Just a guess.
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309453759' post='2260884'] No, but that is EXACTLY what is going on. You're justifying slamming me, when all I do is tell it like it is... [/quote] [img]http://moonflare.com/sitm/stickinthemud.jpg[/img] Was thinking about changing it to this really funny donkey picture, but I thought that would be needlessly provocative.
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) As to the original point of this thread, I think the old-school type churches are beautiful. Some new ones are good too, but I tend to agree that the old-style ones were/are better. You just [b]know[/b] you're in a sacred place. The new ones look like a really nice City Hall. That said, who cares?! Different strokes for different folks. I went to church in a ballroom for several years and felt more "connected" than at the Cathedral I go to now. Edited June 30, 2011 by kujo
franciscanheart Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309456842' post='2260931'] The new ones look like a really nice City Hall. [/quote] Never heard it put that way...
HopefulBride Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1309431638' post='2260728'] How's this for simplicity? [url="http://media.dwell.com/images/643*473/pawson-plain-space-Novy-Dvur-interior.jpg"]Cistercian Monastery of Our Lady of Nový Dvůr[/url] [/quote] That is muy simple. wow
OnlySunshine Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I really love the old gothic style Churches. They have so much history and are incredibly beautiful. I can, however, see the value of the more modern Churches who chose to update to more simplicity. I don't like it, though, when all you see is bare brick on the interior of the Church which is what my old parish decided to do when they renovated. I think it is probably the ugliest Church I've ever seen.
cmotherofpirl Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Some of the older churches were a bit too ornamented for my taste, you really can have too much stuff and then miss the essentials. That is why I liked the second pic better you immediately focused on the tabernacle.
faithcecelia Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309461279' post='2261024'] Some of the older churches were a bit too ornamented for my taste, you really can have too much stuff and then miss the essentials. That is why I liked the second pic better you immediately focused on the tabernacle. [/quote] Yes, I agree completely. To be honest, while I think I have worked it out I am not 100% sure I can acurately identify the tabernacle in the first photo.
MarisStella Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309461279' post='2261024'] Some of the older churches were a bit too ornamented for my taste, you really can have too much stuff and then miss the essentials. That is why I liked the second pic better you immediately focused on the tabernacle. [/quote] An excellent point. I think we can all agree that there are some really amesome things about the first picture and some really amesome things about the second. Truce? Let's all love each other?
Seven77 Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='MarisStella' timestamp='1309474192' post='2261256'] An excellent point. I think we can all agree that there are some really amesome things about the first picture and some really amesome things about the second. Truce? Let's all love each other? [/quote] Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please, I beg of you. Perhaps Bob Marley instead.
MarisStella Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309475527' post='2261268'] Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please, I beg of you. Perhaps Bob Marley instead. [/quote] Hahaha, I love that song!
faithcecelia Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309475527' post='2261268'] Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please [/quote] I sing that to the boy I nanny
OnlySunshine Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309475527' post='2261268'] Yes but please let's not sing the Barney song… please, I beg of you. Perhaps Bob Marley instead. [/quote] [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/SUAKMbTY69I/AAAAAAAAD1Q/4OJg3HEGgJg/s320/Chaotic_Evil_Barney.jpg[/img]
BG45 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1309480091' post='2261312'] [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2k22z8vH128/SUAKMbTY69I/AAAAAAAAD1Q/4OJg3HEGgJg/s320/Chaotic_Evil_Barney.jpg[/img] [/quote] You rock.
Donna Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='mortify' timestamp='1309406616' post='2260641'] Sister, you need to stop weeping and start fighting! Join the restoration movement, support your local Traditional Latin Mass in union with Rome! [/quote] Weeping is the prerequisite to soldiery imo.
OnlySunshine Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1309482082' post='2261335'] You rock. [/quote] Why thank you.
Noel's angel Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) Its easier to see the tabernacle in no. 2 because it's in colour, on a background of white. In black and grey, it wouldn't stand out half as much. However, I do believe the renovations were tastefully done - whether or not there was any need to do some of what they have done remains to be seen, but it is still a very beautiful church. Edited July 1, 2011 by Noel's angel
Jaime Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 So let's sum up the thread derailment [b][quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309408193' post='2260655'] Can someone point me to a place where the justification for destroying that church legitimately exists? The iconoclasm that was just exhibited is deplorable... I will weep a thousand tears over the loss of such a beautiful church. [/quote] [/b] Nobody is being called out. Cam is agreeing with OP. (Crazy I know!) The definition of Iconoclasm is is t[i][b]he deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually for religious or political motives.[/b][/i] THAT WAS WHAT WAS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES! Again He's agreeing with the OP! [b][quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1309409076' post='2260663'] Wow. I've heard a lot from you, but condemning us as iconoclasts is TOTALLY out of order. Did you even CONSIDER whether those of us who saw the new church as justified, and *gasp* beautiful, might have recognized the fact that the old church could have been "destroyed* by a natural disaster or fire? I am seriously sick of you hijacking threads with biting criticisms of those around you. Please consider whether you are making logical sense before you do so in the future, because this comment alone was definitely not logical, justified, or merited. [/quote][/b] [b][quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309409376' post='2260667'] I'm pretty sure I didn't call YOU an iconoclast, but rather those who destroyed that church. Regardless of the mode of renovation, it is a sad example of "Catholic" architecture... I don't have to CONSIDER anything....I'm entitled to my opinion and I'm seriously sick of you judging the hell out of everything that I say. So, BACK OFF!!! So, before you go admonishing me, you should probably look into the context in which I post. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. [url="http://www.stjoechurch.com/"]St. Joseph Proto-Cathedral[/url] was renovated in 1980. There was no fire or natural disaster, except for the architect. [/quote][/b] Now Totus is somewhat apologetic with [quote]Brother, peace. You obviously have a lot of animosity towards the people around you. I apologize for setting you off, but I definitely feel justified in taking offense given precedent. I'm bowing out now, God bless. [/quote] "Given the precedent".. That would be a key line. Because the Totus is referring to the camster of old who was bullying and vitriolic. HOWEVER, he has apologized multiple times and asked to be forgiven and move on. [[b]quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309409444' post='2260668'] They did something similar to our Cathedral here in Dallas. So sad. [/quote[/b]] Then following the timeline, everyone has apologized and moved on until dUSt comes in quotes cam and states [b][quote]CCC 1889: "Without the help of grace, men would not know how "to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse." [/b][b]This is the path of charity, that is, of the love of God and of neighbor. Charity is the greatest social commandment. It respects others and their rights. It requires the practice of justice, and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires a life of self-giving: "Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." [/quote] [/b] There have been multiple posts. Cam is talking about vertical v horizontal worship in architecture. Totus Tuus has apologized and moved on. So why does dUSt bring it up? [b][quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309451601' post='2260857'] You use your knowledge as defense for trolling and harsh criticism. You might be right, but you're not at all pastoral. Frankly, I understand completely why people don't listen to you, become defensive, or downright ignore you. I think part of the reason Pope John Paul II was so loved and had such a great impact on our world is because he LOVED the people he was serving enough to HUMBLE himself before them. He knew he spoke Truth, and he took care to do it with KINDNESS - EVEN WHEN it wasn't required of him. [/quote][/b] So Totus Tuus misunderstands what Cam is saying AND APOLOGIZED for the misunderstanding, yet it's still Cam's fault. Again Cam's ONLY fault in this thread is that he agreed with the OP. He showed his love for church architecture and was accused of bullying by franciscanheart. [b][quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1309455657' post='2260915'] How is it that I get slammed by Totus Tuus and all of a sudden this turns into a rant on how I'm not charitable? IDIGI... This is my whole point.... [/quote][/b] [b][quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309456423' post='2260925'] Maybe people think that if enough people tell you enough times, you may, at some point, realize it's true? Just a guess. [/quote] [/b] Or maybe, Just maybe some people decided that they weren't going to accept Cam's apology. That's fine. It's perfectly human. It most certainly isn't Catholic. From a Catholic standpoint I think its deplorable. I know the rules about not criticizing a mod (which I'm sure dUSt is considered to be among) . But I am not criticizing what they have done from a Phorum standpoint. No one is above being called out for their lack of forgiveness. [quote]If I have been not nice to anyone and it was construed as being uncharitable, I apologize. Per dUSt's request.[/quote] When someone asks for forgiveness, It's supposed to be given. Jesus never once answered a contrite sinner with "We'll see!" Is this good enough for anyone? Apparently not. Cam has apologized several times and has, in my opinion, being trying earnestly to make amends. The lack of charity he's being accused of is more accurately a lack of forgiveness from members of this phorum and some (not all) of its staff. and since dUSt is posting the catechism [b][quote]2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."[/quote][/b] As we forgive those who tresspass against us. So if we desire true forgiveness from Christ, WE ARE OBLIGATED to forgive those who are asking it of us. Some on this board did that with Cam. But certainly not those in this thread who admonished him for nothing. Again, I'm not criticizing the public moves of dUSt and franciscanheart. The OP asked for someone to weep with her. Cam responded kindly and got railed I'm calling them out on their lack of forgiveness. I've known Cam personally for about 15 years. when he's been an arse, I've been the first to call him out. I've done it both publicly and privately. He's been an arse. But he's also apologized and was sincere. And out of the mouth of Christ, we are impelled to forgive. Scholars gotta teach right? Thus endeth the lesson.
Ice_nine Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 I agree with jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff), even though I disagree with a lot of what Cam says and most of how he says it, I don't think he was out of line here. But simply as an impartial observer this feud is getting a little tiring. Can you all please just kiss and make up? Thx in advance
Totus Tuus Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1309559761' post='2261762'] So let's sum up the thread derailment [b] [/b] Nobody is being called out. Cam is agreeing with OP. (Crazy I know!) The definition of Iconoclasm is is t[i][b]he deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or monuments, usually for religious or political motives.[/b][/i] THAT WAS WHAT WAS SHOWN IN THE PICTURES! Again He's agreeing with the OP! [b][/b] [b][/b] Now Totus is somewhat apologetic with "Given the precedent".. That would be a key line. Because the Totus is referring to the camster of old who was bullying and vitriolic. HOWEVER, he has apologized multiple times and asked to be forgiven and move on. [[b]quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309409444' post='2260668'] They did something similar to our Cathedral here in Dallas. So sad. [/quote[/b]] Then following the timeline, everyone has apologized and moved on until dUSt comes in quotes cam and states [b] [/b] There have been multiple posts. Cam is talking about vertical v horizontal worship in architecture. Totus Tuus has apologized and moved on. So why does dUSt bring it up? [b][/b] So Totus Tuus misunderstands what Cam is saying AND APOLOGIZED for the misunderstanding, yet it's still Cam's fault. Again Cam's ONLY fault in this thread is that he agreed with the OP. He showed his love for church architecture and was accused of bullying by Hughey. [b][/b] [b] [/b] Or maybe, Just maybe some people decided that they weren't going to accept Cam's apology. That's fine. It's perfectly human. It most certainly isn't Catholic. From a Catholic standpoint I think its deplorable. I know the rules about not criticizing a mod (which I'm sure dUSt is considered to be among) . But I am not criticizing what they have done from a Phorum standpoint. No one is above being called out for their lack of forgiveness. When someone asks for forgiveness, It's supposed to be given. Jesus never once answered a contrite sinner with "We'll see!" Is this good enough for anyone? Apparently not. Cam has apologized several times and has, in my opinion, being trying earnestly to make amends. The lack of charity he's being accused of is more accurately a lack of forgiveness from members of this phorum and some (not all) of its staff. and since dUSt is posting the catechism [b][/b] As we forgive those who tresspass against us. So if we desire true forgiveness from Christ, WE ARE OBLIGATED to forgive those who are asking it of us. Some on this board did that with Cam. But certainly not those in this thread who admonished him for nothing. Again, I'm not criticizing the public moves of dUSt and Hughey. The OP asked for someone to weep with her. Cam responded kindly and got railed I'm calling them out on their lack of forgiveness. I've known Cam personally for about 15 years. when he's been an arse, I've been the first to call him out. I've done it both publicly and privately. He's been an arse. But he's also apologized and was sincere. And out of the mouth of Christ, we are impelled to forgive. Scholars gotta teach right? Thus endeth the lesson. [/quote] Point well taken, jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff). I did misunderstand him in the first place. I'm rough around the edges, but even I find his posts biting most of the time. And my reference to precedent having been set is to posts since he apologized. I was on one of my PM hiatuses when he was apparently acting out and then apologized in the first place -- I missed ALL of it. My reference to precedent was just from the 2-3 weeks since I have been back. To be honest, I didn't even recognize his screen name when I came back a few weeks ago, so I don't think we ever interacted before I came back. I'm sad the whole situation went down the way it did, but I personally felt a huge sigh of relief to know he was gone (Cam would have berated me for using the word "feel" for example) -- I feel like I can post things without having to look over my shoulder, and have a conversation without scrutiny. You paint a very nice picture of him, and I respect that he's your friend, but I didn't have as nice of an experience as you did. I feel that the forum will be a more peaceful place without the harshness he brought along with him, even when he was supposedly trying to be nice. I apologize if this comes across as harsh. I am trying to express my take on the matter, as someone who didn't "know" him until just a few weeks ago. I fully agree with the calculations that dUSt and franciscanheart have made.
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