Vatican Reminder: Sspx Ordinations Are Illegitimate

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310338888' post='2265477']
Every Schismatic and/or heretical group that still asserts it's Catholic identity claims to be engaging in their disobedient actions because of some higher, truer form of obedience.
[/quote]
Phunny, ain't it?

[4588686]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1310339003' post='2265478']
Phunny, ain't it?
[/quote]


Yeah. It is curious how it works. If this were a liberal Catholic group ordaining women to stay true to the real 'spirit' of Vatican II and the Gospels and what they see as the authentic Church tradition then we probably wouldn't be seeing such an accomodating attitude from some. I think Aloysius, whose opinion I respect greatly, put the best face on it that there is to be put but I'm just still less than impressed by the actions of SSPX. I actually don't doubt the sincerity of SSPX in wanting to preserve a, in my opinion, very valuable stream of thought and practice within Roman Catholicism, but I also don't doubt the sincerity of those groups that ordain women, even though I see their thought as much more vapid than that of SSPX. If you're going to flaunt your obedience to rigid orthodoxy then put up or shut up.

Obedience doesn't count for poo when you're only obedient about things and orders that you like and agree with.

[mortify]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310339447' post='2265480']
Yeah. It is curious how it works. If this were a liberal Catholic group ordaining women to stay true to the real 'spirit' of Vatican II and the Gospels and what they see as the authentic Church tradition then we probably wouldn't be seeing such an accomodating attitude from some.[/quote]

It's not that hard to understand. First realize that there is no human authority that requires absolute obedience. If a Bishop, for example, were to publically speak against the faith, a subject in his jurisdiction not only has the right, but an obligation to pubically rebuke him. A classic example of subject correcting his superior is in a Pauline epistle where Paul rebukes Peter "to his face."

So it's absolutely incorrect to suggest that a Catholic has to obey his Ecclesiastical Superior in a matter that contradicts, or harms the faith. If a Bishop were to ordain women, he is to be rebuked. Now by what standard? By the standard of tradition. The Church has *never* in her two thousand years ordained a female to the priesthood. If you see the Church as an extension of Israel, you can add about another 2,000 years to that tradition. And sorry, saying that this was cultural doesn't fly. The Gentiles that converted to Christianity were well acquainted with female priests in their pagan rights, they were going counter cultural following Judaic tradition. So now we see the difference between the liberal and the traditionalist. The liberal disobeys authority by disobeying tradition. The traditionalist's obedience to tradition makes him disobey authority. The latter's foundation is at least founded in Catholicism, whereas the latter's is completely outside of it.

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310350017' post='2265538']
The liberal disobeys authority by disobeying tradition. The traditionalist's obedience [s]to tradition[/s] [the parts of tradition that he likes] makes him disobey authority. [/QUOTE]


Fixed.

I'm not trying to be trite. I liked your response and thought it was thoughtful and intelligent. I just didn't see anything in it to undermine the basic facts as I see them. I agree that liberals who want to ordain women are not actually being true to the tradition of the Church. That doesn't really matter to my point though.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Hasan

[mortify]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310350576' post='2265540']
Fixed.
[/quote]

Going by what one likes sets the person as the arbiter, but this is really the behavior of the liberal, and not the traditionalist. For the latter, personal likes and dislikes have little to do with it. It is tradition that serves as an authority.

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310351158' post='2265544']
personal likes and dislikes have little to do with it. It is tradition that serves as an authority.
[/quote]


They are disobeying the Church. You cannot get around that fact. If you take holy obedience seriously then you take it as a full package. If not then you are going by likes and dislikes. What you think is good and what you think is bad. That is exactly what SSPX has done. Even if for the best of intentions. Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310351478' post='2265545']Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued.
[/quote]
Which would have all sorts of ugly implications about Pope Benedict and his status, &c...

[mortify]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310351478' post='2265545']
They are disobeying the Church. You cannot get around that fact. If you take holy obedience seriously then you take it as a full package. If not then you are going by likes and dislikes. What you think is good and what you think is bad. That is exactly what SSPX has done. Even if for the best of intentions. Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued.
[/quote]

No, you don't take obedience "full package" precisely because authority is limited. As mentioned earlier, we are not bound to accept what is contrary or harmful to the faith. And therefore the issue is not disobedience itself, but what is the justification for the disobedience. There ARE cases where disobience to a superior is justified. There are even cases were a subject must publically REBUKE their superior. Is the disobedience of the liberal justified? No. And this takes no difficulty in demonstrating.

[mortify]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310351544' post='2265546']
Which would have all sorts of ugly implications about Pope Benedict and his status, &c...
[/quote]

It's not like the only alternative is sedevacantism. There are many hypothesis put forward to explain the situation we are in. For one, it could be simple weakness. The Popes have not been exercising their supreme authority, and therefore liberal bishops have been running havock throughout the church. This in no way questions the status of the Holy Father, nor the office his occupies.

Edited July 11, 2011 by mortify

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310357469' post='2265609']
There ARE cases where disobience to a superior is justified.
[/quote]

Is this one of them? Should SSPX be disobeying Rome at the moment?

[mortify]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310358140' post='2265622']
Is this one of them? Should SSPX be disobeying Rome at the moment?
[/quote]

God knows my friend, I don't have the knowledge necessary to provide an answer. All I can say is the Church has never been in the situation we are currently in. Time will ultimately tell.

[dominicansoul]

there have been worst times in the Church's History ...I have no fear, the Holy Spirit has never left Her and He isn't leaving Her now ...liberals and far-right extremists will come and go, but God remains forever with His Bride ...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1310042130' post='2263963']
SSPX: yer doin it wrong

FSSP: yer doing it rite!

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_T3lg6p_ATmc/TOBC07D8SJI/AAAAAAAAGeA/rK9GYCIDNMQ/s1600/FSSP+logo.jpg[/img]


simple enuff.....
[/quote]


thank you ...we don't pay enuff attention to the [b]obedient[/b] Traddies ...

[4588686]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310358942' post='2265633']
God knows my friend, I don't have the knowledge necessary to provide an answer. All I can say is the Church has never been in the situation we are currently in. Time will ultimately tell.
[/quote]

Well. For whatever it's worth. I respect this answer.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310339447' post='2265480']

Obedience doesn't count for poo when you're only obedient about things and orders that you like and agree with.
[/quote]

Phunny, that's approximately what Jesus said about love, too, isn't it?

[4588686]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1310359640' post='2265642']
Phunny, that's approximately what Jesus said about love, too, isn't it?
[/quote]

It is.

[Luigi]

Posted in error.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Luigi

[Jaime]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1310351478' post='2265545']
They are disobeying the Church. You cannot get around that fact. If you take holy obedience seriously then you take it as a full package. If not then you are going by likes and dislikes. What you think is good and what you think is bad. That is exactly what SSPX has done. Even if for the best of intentions. Unless, of course, your position is that the Magesterium does not have grounds to issue the orders to them that it has in fact issued.
[/quote]

exactly

[Luigi]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1310357469' post='2265609']
No, you don't take obedience "full package" precisely because authority is limited. As mentioned earlier, we are not bound to accept what is contrary or harmful to the faith. And therefore the issue is not disobedience itself, but what is the justification for the disobedience. There ARE cases where disobience to a superior is justified. There are even cases were a subject must publically REBUKE their superior. Is the disobedience of the liberal justified? No. And this takes no difficulty in demonstrating.
[/quote]


If tradition is the final arbiter or right and wrong, then we don't need an authority figure at the head of the Church do we?
We also need only one sentence in our theology/liturgy books - we've always done it this way.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Luigi

[mortify]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1310359147' post='2265636']
there have been worst times in the Church's History ...I have no fear, the Holy Spirit has never left Her and He isn't leaving Her now ...liberals and far-right extremists will come and go, but God remains forever with His Bride ...
[/quote]

I don't know if there ever was a time where 70% of Catholics believed the Eucharist was merely a symbol (This alone warrants the calling of an ecumenical council.) Nor has there every been a time where thousands of priests, nuns, and religious have been abandoning their vocations. One only needs to compare the thriving Church prior to the changes to the shrinking Church after. We are really in the worst of times, but God is certainly with those who seek His will.