stevil Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319232955' post='2324845'] Again, do you believe that water or h2o comes from 'heaven'? [/quote] Can you please define what heaven is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote] Can you please define what heaven is? [/quote] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdnslnQFeN4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdnslnQFeN4[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319253440' post='2324985'] Can you please define what heaven is? [/quote] Heaven is the throne of God and it is not a part of this physical universe because God is spirit. So, Again do you accept that rain or atmospheric water phenomena comes from Heaven? Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319254143' post='2324990'] Heaven is the throne of God and it is not a part of this physical universe because God is spirit. So, Again do you accept that rain or atmospheric water phenomena comes from Heaven? [/quote] I'm an Atheist, I have no belief in gods hence no belief in any god having a throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I know that. So, you should not believe or accept that 'rain comes from heaven too' Am I correct?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319256051' post='2325021'] I know that. So, you should not believe or accept that 'rain comes from heaven too' Am I correct?. [/quote] I have no belief in rain coming from god's throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319256212' post='2325022'] I have no belief in rain coming from god's throne. [/quote] Of course, atmospheric water phenomena or rain does not come from ‘Heaven’. It comes from earth itself thru condensation of atmospheric water vapor into drops of water. Now, if you truly believe that rain does not come from heaven then, you should not accept the historical reality of Noah’s flood. And therefore, you should not believe that God is a killer and a monster. But to believe that God is a killer because of a flood cause by a rain which you do not accept is a sign that you are not honest to yourself. If you are true Atheist then, try to be an honest Atheist. Do you know why it is written (Ps 14:1) ‘The fool says in his heart, "There is no God ."? The intention of writers is not to insult Atheist as if they are saying ‘believe what I believe’. You are a fool because, how can you say, ‘There is no God’ if you do not know who or what is God? Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Of course I do not believe god is a monster, I do not even believe that god exists. I am a weak Atheist, which means I lack a belief in god, it does not mean that I believe that god does not exist. I have no such belief. I am also Ignostic, this means I understand that there is no clear definition of god, hence the question "does god exist?" is rather meaningless. But I forgive you for calling me a fool, you know not what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319252337' post='2324975'] According to cmotherofpril… We have a topic about this. Of course, it is ‘pretty vague’ in your eyes because baptism in Heb 11:7 is not referring to your kind of baptism as mentioned in Article 1, The Sacrament of Baptism (see CCC or Roman Catholic Church). In Sacrament of Catholic Church, the one initiated is the one immersed in water while in Heb 11:7 the one who entered the Ark is the one saved through water or have been baptized. [/quote] Without going back to read old posts I'm pretty sure Cmother would have been talking about 'limbo of the infants' which the church has never taught. And which I do not believe in. But all people before Jesus went into a state of limbo (suspended animation is my guess) where they awaited the coming of Christ. This is referred to as 'Limbo of the fathers' which is an entirely different story to limbo of the infants. At death Jesus descended into hell (limbo of the fathers or abode of the dead) and freed the righteous who had died before Jesus had freed us from sin by his sacrifice of the cross. The Church teaches that after Jesus sacrifice, at death, each of us will have immediate judgement. 'Knight of Christ' explained all this to you with references to scripture. I thought you would have understood this by now. It is unfortunate that you have such a good knowledge of scripture but are erring in putting your own false interpretation of the meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319281999' post='2325086'] Without going back to read old posts I'm pretty sure Cmother would have been talking about 'limbo of the infants' which the church has never taught. And which I do not believe in. But all people before Jesus went into a state of limbo (suspended animation is my guess) where they awaited the coming of Christ. This is referred to as 'Limbo of the fathers' which is an entirely different story to limbo of the infants. At death Jesus descended into hell (limbo of the fathers or abode of the dead) and freed the righteous who had died before Jesus had freed us from sin by his sacrifice of the cross. The Church teaches that after Jesus sacrifice, at death, each of us will have immediate judgement. 'Knight of Christ' explained all this to you with references to scripture. I thought you would have understood this by now. It is unfortunate that you have such a good knowledge of scripture but are erring in putting your own false interpretation of the meaning. [/quote] Please see this …[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104494-limbo-is-a-heretical-view-according-to-epiphanius/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104494-limbo-is-a-heretical-view-according-to-epiphanius/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319255854' post='2325018'] I'm an Atheist, I have no belief in gods hence no belief in any god having a throne. [/quote] [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319270731' post='2325064'] Of course I do not believe god is a monster, I do not even believe that god exists. I am a weak Atheist, which means I lack a belief in god, it does not mean that I believe that god does not exist. I have no such belief. I am also Ignostic, this means I understand that there is no clear definition of god, hence the question "does god exist?" is rather meaningless. But I forgive you for calling me a fool, you know not what you do. [/quote] [color=#222222][font=Arial]To me, this is what you are saying.[/font][/color] [color=#222222][font=Arial]You do not have a belief in any gods having a throne because you do not have a belief that there is a god. And you do not have a kind of belief in the existence or non-existence of God because you do not understand the clear definition of God.[/font][/color] [color=#222222][font=Arial]Do I get it right? [/font][/color] Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [quote] I have no belief in rain coming from god's throne. [/quote] It...doesn't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'm not sure how arguing about rain helps anyone? And [b]reyb[/b], surely you know that the reason the Psalmist calls the man who does not believe in God a 'fool' is because he thinks his evil actions will have no consequences? Psalm 14: [quote]The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."[left]They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;[/left][left]There is no one who does good.[/left][left]The L[size="1"]ORD[/size] has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men[/left][left]To see if there are any who understand,[/left][left]Who seek after God.[/left][left]They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;[/left][left]There is no one who does good, not even one.[/left][left]Do all the workers of wickedness not know,[/left][left]Who eat up my people [i]as[/i] they eat bread,[/left][left][i]And[/i] do not call upon the Lord?[/left][left]There they are in great dread,[/left][left]For God is with the righteous generation.[/left][left]You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,[/left][left]But the L[size="1"]ORD[/size] is his refuge.[/left][left]Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion![/left][left]When the L[size="1"]ORD[/size] restores His captive people,[/left][left]Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.[/left][left][/quote][/left][left](Psalm 53 is very similar to this)[/left][left]In other words...they're fools because they are wicked. If an atheist were seeking to do the right thing, to be an upright and just man, this passage wouldn't apply to him...do you agree?[/left] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1319300934' post='2325191'] I'm not sure how arguing about rain helps anyone? And [b]reyb[/b], surely you know that the reason the Psalmist calls the man who does not believe in God a 'fool' is because he thinks his evil actions will have no consequences? Psalm 14: [/left][left](Psalm 53 is very similar to this)[/left][left]In other words...they're fools because they are wicked. If an atheist were seeking to do the right thing, to be an upright and just man, this passage wouldn't apply to him...do you agree?[/left] [/quote] There is a difference between righteousness according to man and righteousness according to spirit. A man maybe morally upright in all his actions and even has strong faith in God but still, he is wicked and an evil man according to the spirit. How much more if you are an Atheist? If an Atheist is truly honest to the very best of their ability then, I may agree. But, none of them are honest in telling the truth because, they are double talker. There is no reason for me to be mad with them but I need to speak like this because I love them as if I am saying, ‘I love a morally upright evil person’. They are also an unintentional sinner to whom Christ died. Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319291763' post='2325124'] Please see this …[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104494-limbo-is-a-heretical-view-according-to-epiphanius/"]http://www.phatmass....-to-epiphanius/[/url] [/quote] [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1271359798' post='2094166'] My goodness Limbo of the Fathers is official catholic teaching, it's in the Apostle's Creed, "He descended into hell", "hell" is Limbo of the fathers. Limbo of the Infants is not. [/quote] I believe your post is in dispute! And I'm not going through all that loopy nonsense again. From what I can gather the only thing your post disputes is the word Limbo. The Apostolic teaching which is dogmatic is that at death Jesus descended into 'Hell'. I believe this was actually he descended into the nether world. The nether world = lower world= the grave. The grave is the abode of the dead. The word limbo has some variations but basically it's a state where nothing happens. While you're asleep you're consciousness is in a kind of limbo. The dead are in limbo until such times as Jesus brings them to life, the resurrection for goodness sake. Limbo is not a place it's a state or condition so there are no number of limbos! [b]Limbo of the unbaptised IMO is utter nonsense.[/b] If a baby or any person having attained free will would have chosen baptism [b]knowing it's importance[/b], dies without attaining it, then Jesus personally baptises them himself, 'Baptism of desire' Just as he did when he descended into Limbo of the fathers to baptise those who had lived before John the Baptist. I don't intend to continue this loopy argument any further so I will leave you in limbo on your understanding of limbo. You are free to believe whatever you like. Edited October 22, 2011 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now