Is God A Moral Monster?

[stevil]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319256051' post='2325021']
I know that. So, you should not believe or accept that 'rain comes from heaven too' Am I correct?.
[/quote]
I have no belief in rain coming from god's throne.

[reyb]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319256212' post='2325022']
I have no belief in rain coming from god's throne.
[/quote]


Of course, atmospheric water phenomena or rain does not come from ‘Heaven’. It comes from earth itself thru condensation of atmospheric water vapor into drops of water. Now, if you truly believe that rain does not come from heaven then, you should not accept the historical reality of Noah’s flood. And therefore, you should not believe that God is a killer and a monster. But to believe that God is a killer because of a flood cause by a rain which you do not accept is a sign that you are not honest to yourself. If you are true Atheist then, try to be an honest Atheist.

Do you know why it is written (Ps 14:1) ‘The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God ."?

The intention of writers is not to insult Atheist as if they are saying ‘believe what I believe’. You are a fool because, how can you say, ‘There is no God’ if you do not know who or what is God?

Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb

[stevil]

Of course I do not believe god is a monster, I do not even believe that god exists.

I am a weak Atheist, which means I lack a belief in god, it does not mean that I believe that god does not exist. I have no such belief.

I am also Ignostic, this means I understand that there is no clear definition of god, hence the question "does god exist?" is rather meaningless.
But I forgive you for calling me a fool, you know not what you do.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319252337' post='2324975']

According to cmotherofpril…

We have a topic about this.

Of course, it is ‘pretty vague’ in your eyes because baptism in Heb 11:7 is not referring to your kind of baptism as mentioned in Article 1, The Sacrament of Baptism (see CCC or Roman Catholic Church). In Sacrament of Catholic Church, the one initiated is the one immersed in water while in Heb 11:7 the one who entered the Ark is the one saved through water or have been baptized.
[/quote]
Without going back to read old posts I'm pretty sure Cmother would have been talking about 'limbo of the infants' which the church has never taught. And which I do not believe in.
But all people before Jesus went into a state of limbo (suspended animation is my guess) where they awaited the coming of Christ. This is referred to as 'Limbo of the fathers' which is an entirely different story to limbo of the infants. At death Jesus descended into hell (limbo of the fathers or abode of the dead) and freed the righteous who had died before Jesus had freed us from sin by his sacrifice of the cross. The Church teaches that after Jesus sacrifice, at death, each of us will have immediate judgement. 'Knight of Christ' explained all this to you with references to scripture. I thought you would have understood this by now. It is unfortunate that you have such a good knowledge of scripture but are erring in putting your own false interpretation of the meaning.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319281999' post='2325086']
Without going back to read old posts I'm pretty sure Cmother would have been talking about 'limbo of the infants' which the church has never taught. And which I do not believe in.
But all people before Jesus went into a state of limbo (suspended animation is my guess) where they awaited the coming of Christ. This is referred to as 'Limbo of the fathers' which is an entirely different story to limbo of the infants. At death Jesus descended into hell (limbo of the fathers or abode of the dead) and freed the righteous who had died before Jesus had freed us from sin by his sacrifice of the cross. The Church teaches that after Jesus sacrifice, at death, each of us will have immediate judgement. 'Knight of Christ' explained all this to you with references to scripture. I thought you would have understood this by now. It is unfortunate that you have such a good knowledge of scripture but are erring in putting your own false interpretation of the meaning.
[/quote]


Please see this …[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104494-limbo-is-a-heretical-view-according-to-epiphanius/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104494-limbo-is-a-heretical-view-according-to-epiphanius/[/url]

[reyb]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319255854' post='2325018']
I'm an Atheist, I have no belief in gods hence no belief in any god having a throne.
[/quote]
[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319270731' post='2325064']
Of course I do not believe god is a monster, I do not even believe that god exists.

I am a weak Atheist, which means I lack a belief in god, it does not mean that I believe that god does not exist. I have no such belief.

I am also Ignostic, this means I understand that there is no clear definition of god, hence the question "does god exist?" is rather meaningless.
But I forgive you for calling me a fool, you know not what you do.
[/quote]


[color=#222222][font=Arial]To me, this is what you are saying.[/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]You do not have a belief in any gods having a throne because you do not have a belief that there is a god. And you do not have a kind of belief in the existence or non-existence of God because you do not understand the clear definition of God.[/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]Do I get it right? [/font][/color]

Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb

[Selah]

[quote]
I have no belief in rain coming from god's throne.
[/quote]

It...doesn't...

[MithLuin]

I'm not sure how arguing about rain helps anyone?

And [b]reyb[/b], surely you know that the reason the Psalmist calls the man who does not believe in God a 'fool' is because he thinks his evil actions will have no consequences?

Psalm 14:

[quote]The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."[left]They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;[/left][left]There is no one who does good.[/left][left]The L[size="1"]ORD[/size] has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men[/left][left]To see if there are any who understand,[/left][left]Who seek after God.[/left][left]They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;[/left][left]There is no one who does good, not even one.[/left][left]Do all the workers of wickedness not know,[/left][left]Who eat up my people [i]as[/i] they eat bread,[/left][left][i]And[/i] do not call upon the Lord?[/left][left]There they are in great dread,[/left][left]For God is with the righteous generation.[/left][left]You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,[/left][left]But the L[size="1"]ORD[/size] is his refuge.[/left][left]Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion![/left][left]When the L[size="1"]ORD[/size] restores His captive people,[/left][left]Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.[/left][left][/quote][/left][left](Psalm 53 is very similar to this)[/left][left]In other words...they're fools because they are wicked. If an atheist were seeking to do the right thing, to be an upright and just man, this passage wouldn't apply to him...do you agree?[/left]

[reyb]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1319300934' post='2325191']
I'm not sure how arguing about rain helps anyone?

And [b]reyb[/b], surely you know that the reason the Psalmist calls the man who does not believe in God a 'fool' is because he thinks his evil actions will have no consequences?

Psalm 14:

[/left][left](Psalm 53 is very similar to this)[/left][left]In other words...they're fools because they are wicked. If an atheist were seeking to do the right thing, to be an upright and just man, this passage wouldn't apply to him...do you agree?[/left]




[/quote]
There is a difference between righteousness according to man and righteousness according to spirit. A man maybe morally upright in all his actions and even has strong faith in God but still, he is wicked and an evil man according to the spirit. How much more if you are an Atheist? If an Atheist is truly honest to the very best of their ability then, I may agree. But, none of them are honest in telling the truth because, they are double talker.

There is no reason for me to be mad with them but I need to speak like this because I love them as if I am saying, ‘I love a morally upright evil person’. They are also an unintentional sinner to whom Christ died.

Edited October 22, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319291763' post='2325124']


Please see this …[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/104494-limbo-is-a-heretical-view-according-to-epiphanius/"]http://www.phatmass....-to-epiphanius/[/url]
[/quote]
[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1271359798' post='2094166']
My goodness Limbo of the Fathers is official catholic teaching, it's in the Apostle's Creed, "He descended into hell", "hell" is Limbo of the fathers. Limbo of the Infants is not.
[/quote]

I believe your post is in dispute! And I'm not going through all that loopy nonsense again. From what I can gather the only thing your post disputes is the word Limbo. The Apostolic teaching which is dogmatic is that at death Jesus descended into 'Hell'. I believe this was actually he descended into the nether world. The nether world = lower world= the grave. The grave is the abode of the dead. The word limbo has some variations but basically it's a state where nothing happens. While you're asleep you're consciousness is in a kind of limbo. The dead are in limbo until such times as Jesus brings them to life, the resurrection for goodness sake. Limbo is not a place it's a state or condition so there are no number of limbos! [b]Limbo of the unbaptised IMO is utter nonsense.[/b] If a baby or any person having attained free will would have chosen baptism [b]knowing it's importance[/b], dies without attaining it, then Jesus personally baptises them himself, 'Baptism of desire' Just as he did when he descended into Limbo of the fathers to baptise those who had lived before John the Baptist. I don't intend to continue this loopy argument any further so I will leave you in limbo on your understanding of limbo. You are free to believe whatever you like.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1319300934' post='2325191']
I'm not sure how arguing about rain helps anyone?

And [b]reyb[/b], surely you know that the reason the Psalmist calls the man who does not believe in God a 'fool' is because he thinks his evil actions will have no consequences?

Psalm 14:

[/left][left](Psalm 53 is very similar to this)[/left][left]In other words...they're fools because they are wicked. If an atheist were seeking to do the right thing, to be an upright and just man, this passage wouldn't apply to him...do you agree?[/left]



[/quote]
Sometimes I wonder if Rey is Trolling us! I don't think Stevil is attaining anything unless he has bulk time to waste on where rain comes from. And if you don't believe in Thor then there's every chance you won't believe in Thors hammer.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[stevil]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319295571' post='2325141']
[color=#222222][font=Arial]And you do not have a kind of belief in the existence or non-existence of God because you do not understand the clear definition of God.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
You certainly have an unusual approach to communications, I guess you enjoy riddles.

From what I have seen, there is no clear definition of what a god is and how we would recognise one if we were to encounter it. The bible talks of a personality but doesn't describe what a god is and why that personality is a god.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319316883' post='2325282']
You certainly have an unusual approach to communications, I guess you enjoy riddles.

From what I have seen, there is no clear definition of what a god is and how we would recognise one if we were to encounter it. The bible talks of a personality but doesn't describe what a god is and why that personality is a god.
[/quote]
God is the beginning and end of all things. I once asked the question could God change the laws of logic. The answer, logic is Gods nature and God does not change. God is certain things including love and logic. God also created things through the logic of science which is his nature. From science and natural logic God created the earth and made man in his image. His image is not how he looks but is his nature. All the good characteristics of humans is what God is. Man by free choice was seduced by evil but evil is not something it is the absence of good which is the absence of God. This might not make much sense because it is very hard to describe God. How could you describe a box if you lived on the inside and had never seen the box in its entirety. The common atheist view of God being a grumpy arrogant old man sitting on a throne demanding people bow down to him and worship him is about as remote to a true description as you can get.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319315036' post='2325270']

I believe your post is in dispute! And I'm not going through all that loopy nonsense again. From what I can gather the only thing your post disputes is the word Limbo. The Apostolic teaching which is dogmatic is that at death Jesus descended into 'Hell'. I believe this was actually he descended into the nether world. The nether world = lower world= the grave. The grave is the abode of the dead. The word limbo has some variations but basically it's a state where nothing happens. While you're asleep you're consciousness is in a kind of limbo. The dead are in limbo until such times as Jesus brings them to life, the resurrection for goodness sake. Limbo is not a place it's a state or condition so there are no number of limbos! [b]Limbo of the unbaptised IMO is utter nonsense.[/b] If a baby or any person having attained free will would have chosen baptism [b]knowing it's importance[/b], dies without attaining it, then Jesus personally baptises them himself, 'Baptism of desire' Just as he did when he descended into Limbo of the fathers to baptise those who had lived before John the Baptist. I don't intend to continue this loopy argument any further so I will leave you in limbo on your understanding of limbo. You are free to believe whatever you like.
[/quote]


I understand and hear you about this teaching of Limbo of the Fathers. This teaching is not hard to understand but I know it is not true. Thus, I continually give you questions so that you (Catholics) may realize its inconsistencies. Inconsistencies not only in this particular teaching but in all your doctrines which caught you like a bird in a cage. I know a believer like you never learn to listen to a believer like us although we are always hopeful that oneday you will see Christ yourself and then, you will realize we are telling the truth or I may say, I am telling the truth.

In the other topic which I started I want phatmassers to see a very simple example of one-sidedness of your early fathers in introducing beliefs as if it is from God himself while treating others, although with (almost) the same teaching as that of them, as heretical. According to Epiphanius himself, Marcion is a believer of limbo where Christ brings salvation. This is almost the same with your early church’s father’s acceptance of this teaching from the Jews but with one big difference. While Marcion (again according to Epiphanius) believe that in limbo Christ brings salvation to Cain et al and left in damnation to all Old Testament saints. On the other hand, your early fathers believe that in limbo Christ brings salvation to the Holy Prophets. So, their teaching about limbo is almost the same and their difference is only on ‘who’ are being saved.

Below is the reason/s why they believe in this kind of ‘Limbo’ which they called ‘Limbo of the Fathers’ and condemned the kind of ‘Limbo’ which Marcion introduce which now I called ‘Limbo of Cain’. (I know there is no teaching with that name but I called it as such because it was Cain et al who were being saved in Limbo of Marcion).

According to Newadvent (see [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm"]http://www.newadvent...then/09256a.htm[/url] ),
It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ's visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of Godand the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were "in prison," as St. Peter says; but, as Christ's own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.

So, it is clear. In this teaching the holy prophets have to wait in limbo. Now, it is written in 1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

The above verse will never fit in their interpretation about ‘who’ are these spirits in prison because, in the above verse these ‘spirits in prison’ are the ‘disobedient’ when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. Now, if you think holy prophets are the 'disobedient' spirits then, you must include Noah, and obviously Noah is excluded in the above verse.

Let us continue this in the other topic if you want. Okay?

Edited October 23, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319365137' post='2325567']


I understand and hear you about this teaching of Limbo of the Fathers. This teaching is not hard to understand but I know it is not true. Thus, I continually give you questions so that you (Catholics) may realize its inconsistencies. Inconsistencies not only in this particular teaching but in all your doctrines which caught you like a bird in a cage. I know a believer like you never learn to listen to a believer like us although we are always hopeful that oneday you will see Christ yourself

[/quote]
I already told you before, I know Jesus personally. How do I know that I know him? The wisdom and love in what he tells me. If a voice told me that any dogmatic revelation was untrue or that I was some kind of prophet knowing what more educated people than I know, then I would know it to be the voice of the deceiver. I fear you are being led astray and I pray for you that Jesus will lead you to truth and you will not hear any more deceptions that lead you from the truth. The odds are that the many are correct over the one or the few.

[quote]and then, you will realize we are telling the truth [b]or I may say, I am telling the truth[/b].[/quote]
Well I'm glad to see we are getting that it is you and not we. I'm assuming that 'we' refers to you and your personal Jesus. But actually I have no objection to that since I have my own personal relationship with Jesus. Just remember though Jesus tells you things that are of great wisdom. You will know him by the fruits he bears. The evil one bears only bad fruit. Jesus bears only wisdom, good fruit!

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319367621' post='2325584']
I already told you before, I know Jesus personally. How do I know that I know him? The wisdom and love in what he tells me.[b] If a voice told me that any dogmatic revelation was untrue or that I was some kind of prophet knowing what more educated people than I know, then I would know it to be the voice of the deceiver[/b]. I fear you are being led astray and I pray for you that Jesus will lead you to truth and you will not hear any more deceptions that lead you from the truth. The odds are that the many are correct over the one or the few.
[/quote]


Are you saying…..(something like this?)….

If someone (like me) tells you that your accepted doctrine is wrong or if someone (like me) speaks as if he is more knowledgeable than your known educated teachers in religious matters, then you know, that someone has a deceiver’s voice.

Do I get it right?

Edited October 23, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1319372138' post='2325606']


Are you saying…..(something like this?)….

If someone (like me) tells you that your accepted doctrine is wrong or if someone (like me) speaks as if he is more knowledgeable than your known educated teachers in religious matters, then you know, that someone has a deceiver’s voice.

Do I get it right?
[/quote]
Sort of but under the application of logic. For example since baptism is essential for salvation, yet the Church also teaches the possibility of salvation for all people who have not had the opportunity to be baptised. Then logically there must be an escape clause. For people prior to Jesus he must have done it for them as per Limbo of the Church Fathers. If this is wrong then how could those people have been saved? We must also have Baptism of desire for those who know Christ in their souls but have not been taught about him or been baptised. Good old Spock logic. Your view seems illogical.

I would have given you props for your post but it seems that facility is blocked which is an unfortunate state of affairs for a Christian forum.

Rey From what I read you obviously do an amazing amount of study and have a very comprehensive knowledge of scripture. I always admire and to some extent envy such people because I have a mental illness that affects my concentration making extensive reading difficult. That's why I haunt internet forums, because when I read something and think I disagree then I search for documents to support my argument and thus learn as well as exercising my brain. I see in you a nice man whose only concern is for the spiritual well being of your fellow man. I'm sure Jesus will one day bring you to his kingdom. But consider people such as myself reading what centuries of theologians determine. When I read the Vatican website documents they seem to fit the divine revelation like a glove. And then there are always people who either in worst case think they are the incarnation of Jesus or they are some divine messenger knowing what the centuries of theologians have failed to do or there are people that think some things are wrong and want to correct it by their own religion or denomination. The result of this is wars and hatred. Christian against Muslim, Catholic against Protestant. This is the devils agenda divide the forces and oppose them to each other. It is our duty to work toward oneness and the way to this is through the Church founded by Jesus. This requires a certain amount of obedience. There are numerous things that the Catholic Church teaches that I can't come to grips with and we have many obstacles in my local Church which sometimes appear like road blocks. But rather than give up and form my own independent views I prefer to work with the Catholic Church in the ways that fit best and leave what problems I can't resolve to God in his own time. In my senior years I have come to realise that God controls our lives much more than we think. I can see how I would have been the lamb to the slaughter if it weren't for Jesus watching and guiding my every move. I used to think that on odd occasions he protected me or guided me but now I can see he does that every day and has done from the beginning. The same goes for the world in general God has a plan and it is unfolding perfectly as it must. We are not in any danger. 'With Jesus our protector, the waves cannot wash over us, the winds cannot sweep us away.'

Edited October 23, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1319404632' post='2325813']
Sort of but under the application of logic.
[/quote]


Knowing Christ is the same as knowing the truth from the lips of God himself because, Christ is Truth of God. He is the mystery of God. And only God can reveal him. Even witnesses and writers of the scripture cannot reveal the Christ of God, although they testify about him because, (I will say it again), Christ is the mystery of God and only God can reveal him.

Now, did you really know Christ? Did you hear God who said, ‘This is my Son’?
You said ‘you know him personally ’. If it is true, why then there are knowledgeable teachers than you to whom you entrusted your accepted doctrines and belief considering the mystery of God was revealed to you by God himself?

Are your teachers seen Christ the way Apostle Paul saw Him? Why then you accepted their teaching when they said ‘This is the Christ of God according to Paul or whoever witnesses’ while in fact only God can reveal him?

Have you not seen the conflict and inconsistencies of your teaching which I have presented? If you do not see them then, you are simply ignoring it and to that I can do nothing at all. I have shown you these inconsistencies because I want you to ask God himself about the truth and nothing more.

In my previous post I asked you if this is what you really mean - ‘ If someone (like me) tells you that your accepted doctrine is wrong or if someone (like me) speaks as if he is more knowledgeable than your known educated teachers in religious matters, then you know, that someone has a deceiver’s voice' - and your answer is affirmative by saying 'Sort of'.

Don’t you not realize this world is always treated us this way? As it written in Matt 5:11-12 ‘"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Your insult is lifting me up but I am not happy because, my intention is not to humble myself as if I am saying I am above you. Our engagement is very clear to me thus I said in my previous post, a believer like you never learn to listen to a believer like us and that is, since the beginning of time. We are always pleading, make room for us in your hearts because, we have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one. I do not say this to condemn you; I have said before that you have such a place in our hearts that we would live or die with you. Do you remember what I said about Noah? By his faith he condemned the world because he finds Truth and therefore you have no reason not to find him too. If only you learn to seek and ask God about what is the Truth.

Now, if you do not want to be corrected then, it is no longer my fault. It is all yours.

Edited October 24, 2011 by reyb

[Papist]

[Selah]

Nice.