reyb Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) Now, you said this…. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317673765' post='2314776'] I saw Jesus in my brother on the day of his death. I have no doubt that my brother is in paradise from that day. He loves me! of course he will pray that I find my way from darkness. This to me is as logical as it can get. [/quote] Is Jesus’ prayer not enough to save you? What is the sense of their prayers then? (Unless they have 'new prayers' different from what you already know). Edited October 5, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317792015' post='2315585'] Now, you said this…. Is Jesus’ prayer not enough to save you? What is the sense of their prayers then? (Unless they have 'new prayers' different from what you already know). [/quote] LOL what? Do you think we don't need to pray for each other because Jesus does it all. Jesus is ever loving kind and gentle, but he doesn't molly coddle us, we have to work hard at times. He only carries you when you can't care for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 [b]"[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2009/11/gods-53rd-killing-samson-kills-3000-in.html"]Samson kills 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack[/url]"[/b] [b]LOL![/b] [b]Wow, the websites you linked to really have a lot of academic legitimacy don't they?[/b] [b]I'm sorry, I smell propaganda all over these things and from what I've read, this stuff ain't worth much investment of my time. Or anyone else's for that matter.[/b] [b]Bottom line with God - life is His own belonging. We don't own life - HE DOES. And He can righteously do with life what He pleases and doesn't need to have any form of permission from us.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317792015' post='2315585'] Now, you said this…. Is Jesus’ prayer not enough to save you? What is the sense of their prayers then? (Unless they have 'new prayers' different from what you already know). [/quote] Prayers have many facets but in and of themselves do not guarantee being saved. Prayers are guiding inlufences in our lives permitting us to come closer to God, either intimately or as part of our own community. It is part of the journey, but not the journey itself. Edited October 6, 2011 by Didacus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1317627903' post='2314452'] How do you feel when you hear about deaths then? For example, the recent Japanese earthquake and tsunami killed tens of thousands. How should a Christian feel? [/quote] What is felt before such events are not inconsequential but aside the main point of the discussion herein. The fact is that to those who believe, and to God Himself, death is not an evil, nor a loss. It is simply a passage towards His presence, and does not represent the end of life itself. How I feel towards that; I feel it is a comfort to know that the end is in His hands, and that although this life may be at time cut short (to our percpetion), it continues on in His presence. The end is assured through Him, and the end is good. Death is not the end of us, is simply a step in the continuation of our existance and only in this light can some sense be made of God's actions and decisions. Atheist see God killing humans as a tragedy, but take thing in perspective. If my young son is playing his games and I call him to stop playing so he comes to eat supper or get ready for bedtime; is it a terrible thing that I stop him from playing? Likewise, God ending our lives on earth is not His way of ending our existance, it is His way of calling us to another. So what may seem terrible in our 'child like' perception, is really just a simple act to carry us on our way for God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1311449263' post='2274431'] [snip] Some people will read this and conclude that God is unjust and a "moral monster." But not me. Don't get me wrong, what St. Paul is saying here is not easy to take. But when I read this, I am completely humbled at the absolute irrelevance of my own will. That is the entire message of the Gospel: our relationship to God is an act of absolute abandonment, and this is what we call faith. Not only can we not will ourselves to heaven, but we cannot even will ourselves to being loved by God. We can only abandon ourselves to him, and in doing so we are following the example of Abraham, and the example of Christ, because nobody has ever abandoned themselves to God more than Christ. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img] [/quote] This is very well said. It is true, that only in abandonment do we truly meet God, and only in this abandonment can we truly begin t understand His word and His will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317832055' post='2315724'] LOL what? Do you think we don't need to pray for each other because Jesus does it all. Jesus is ever loving kind and gentle, but he doesn't molly coddle us, we have to work hard at times. He only carries you when you can't care for yourself. [/quote] [quote name='Didacus' timestamp='1317866737' post='2315872'] Prayers have many facets but in and of themselves do not guarantee being saved. Prayers are guiding inlufences in our lives permitting us to come closer to God, either intimately or as part of our own community. It is part of the journey, but not the journey itself. [/quote] Prayers are meant to be answered by God himself because, It is a promise, "Ask and it will be given to you ; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you( Matt 7:7ff). Unfortunately, many are praying in accordance to his will rather than that of God’s will. (Let us discuss this in some other time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Didacus' timestamp='1317871802' post='2315921'] What is felt before such events are not inconsequential but aside the main point of the discussion herein. [b]The fact is that to those who believe, and to God Himself, death is not an evil, nor a loss[/b]. It is simply a passage towards His presence, and does not represent the end of life itself. [/quote] I agree. [quote name='Didacus' timestamp='1317871802' post='2315921'] How I feel towards that; I feel it is a comfort to know that the end is in His hands, and that although this life may be at time cut short (to our percpetion), it continues on in His presence. The end is assured through Him, and the end is good. Death is not the end of us, is simply a step in the continuation of our existance and only in this light can some sense be made of God's actions and decisions. Atheist see God killing humans as a tragedy, but take thing in perspective. If my young son is playing his games and I call him to stop playing so he comes to eat supper or get ready for bedtime; is it a terrible thing that I stop him from playing? Likewise, God ending our lives on earth is not His way of ending our existance, it is His way of calling us to another. So what may seem terrible in our 'child like' perception, is really just a simple act to carry us on our way for God. [/quote] Apostle Paul said (Phil 1:21-22) ‘For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain’. Therefore, death is a blessing if you have assurance of salvation. On the other hand, ‘It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 10:31). Now, if this ‘tragedy’ is a God’s way in calling his children while playing, it is good if all of them will come ‘to eat supper or get ready for bedtime’ otherwise, this calling becomes questionable. Do you believe that the 9-11 incident is a God's will 'calling them to eat suffer and be ready for bedtime'? (Suicide terrorists believed they are giving honour to God in doing it). Edited October 7, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318014170' post='2317528'] I agree. [/quote] [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318014170' post='2317528'] Apostle Paul said (Phil 1:21-22) ‘For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain’. Therefore, death is a blessing if you have assurance of salvation. On the other hand, ‘It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 10:31). Now, if this ‘tragedy’ is a God’s way in calling his children while playing, it is good if all of them will come ‘to eat supper or get ready for bedtime’ otherwise, this calling becomes questionable. Do you believe that the 9-11 incident is a God's will 'calling them to eat suffer and be ready for bedtime'? (Suicide terrorists believed they are giving honour to God in doing it). [/quote] Time is the enemy and the cause of bereavement! If all people died together to enter the kingdom of God then there would only be rejoicing. Not death itself is evil but untimely unjust death is evil. The perpetrators of 911 are evil people who tried to prevent people from attaining their destiny to reach God. We pray for the souls of the innocent that they be forgiven their sins, that they were robbed of the opportunity to atone for. We pray for the hero's who laid down their lives for others that they shall enter the kingdom of God having shown the greatest of love. 911 was not Gods will, the suicide terrorists were pwned by satan to serve him and themselves by false promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Sophia Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Gosh - coming back to this thread after a several days away - it's an EXHAUSTING read ! . . . Immeasurably grateful to have the gift of faith and to be deeply rooted in it - it's the source of a joy I would wish on my worst enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318014170' post='2317528'] I agree. [/quote] [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1318038136' post='2317736'] Time is the enemy and the cause of bereavement! If all people died together to enter the kingdom of God then there would only be rejoicing. [b] Not death itself is evil but untimely unjust death is evil. The perpetrators of 911 are evil people who tried to prevent people from attaining their destiny to reach God[/b]. We pray for the souls of the innocent that they be forgiven their sins, that they were robbed of the opportunity to atone for. We pray for the hero's who laid down their lives for others that they shall enter the kingdom of God having shown the greatest of love. 911 was not Gods will, the suicide terrorists were pwned by satan to serve him and themselves by false promises. [/quote] I agree that even death is blessing but I do not agree to the reason given by didacus in saying it through his allegory. Your own answer can show it. If it is God' will then everyone must be forgiven otherwise God is unjust. But if it is not God's will, who's will prevail? Is there anyone greater than God? [quote name='Didacus' timestamp='1317871802' post='2315921'] Atheist see God killing humans as a tragedy, but take thing in perspective.[b] If my young son is playing his games and I call him to stop playing so he comes to eat supper or get ready for bedtime; is it a terrible thing that I stop him from playing? Likewise, God ending our lives on earth is not His way of ending our existance, it is His way of calling us to another.[/b] So what may seem terrible in our 'child like' perception, is really just a simple act to carry us on our way for God. [/quote] The question at hand is – Is God a just God? So, where is God’s justice in such ‘disastrous event’? Even time is not an enemy because ‘There is a time for everything …’ (Eccl 3:1) Edited October 8, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318043035' post='2317768'] I agree that even death is blessing but I do not agree to the reason given by didacus in saying it through his allegory. Your own answer can show it. If it is God' will then everyone must be forgiven otherwise God is unjust. But if it is not God's will, who's will prevail? Is there anyone greater than God? The question at hand is – Is God a just God? So, where is God’s justice in such ‘disastrous event’? Even time is not an enemy because ‘There is a time for everything …’ (Eccl 3:1) [/quote] Ecc 3:2-8 Read the rest of it! In a temporal sense for a moment as people die, satan is supreme but then God turns it around. Out of no event comes nothing. Out of an event like 911 comes both evil and great good. The evil of the perpetrators is outweighed by the love and compassion as people lay down their lives for one another and so on it goes even a long time after. The haters hate all those they associate with the event and evil continues but a greater multitude remember those who cared a gave so much and continue to give. When God gave mankind free will he surrended part of his own will. The tragedy of 911 was not Gods will it was man's choice to follow satan. The good that came from it and the souls that were saved by the selfless actions of people were Gods will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318014170' post='2317528'] I agree. Apostle Paul said (Phil 1:21-22) ‘For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain’. Therefore, death is a blessing if you have assurance of salvation. On the other hand, ‘It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 10:31). Now, if this ‘tragedy’ is a God’s way in calling his children while playing, it is good if all of them will come ‘to eat supper or get ready for bedtime’ otherwise, this calling becomes questionable. Do you believe that the 9-11 incident is a God's will 'calling them to eat suffer and be ready for bedtime'? (Suicide terrorists believed they are giving honour to God in doing it). [/quote] No - God does not cause us to suffer without purpose. 9-11 was the act of humans, not an act of God. However, I am certain that God was present for everyone involved; those who survived as well as those who died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318043035' post='2317768'] I agree that even death is blessing but I do not agree to the reason given by didacus in saying it through his allegory. Your own answer can show it. If it is God' will then everyone must be forgiven otherwise God is unjust. But if it is not God's will, who's will prevail? Is there anyone greater than God? The question at hand is – Is God a just God? So, where is God’s justice in such ‘disastrous event’? Even time is not an enemy because ‘There is a time for everything …’ (Eccl 3:1) [/quote] You seem to be mixing two different circumstances. My reply was aimed at circumstances when God Himself causes death to humanity. You refer in your reply to circumstances where humanity causes death on itself. The two are very different, and should be discussed seperately. Otherwise, we are only going to confuse the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) It seems you are distracted. Let us go back to our previous discussion and thus, not to derail our discussion. When Kia Ora asked [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1317627903' post='2314452'] How do you feel when you hear about deaths then? For example, the recent Japanese earthquake and tsunami killed tens of thousands. How should a Christian feel? [/quote] Your answer is… [quote name='Didacus' timestamp='1317871802' post='2315921'] What is felt before such events are not inconsequential but aside the main point of the discussion herein. The fact is that to those who believe, and to God Himself, death is not an evil, nor a loss. It is simply a passage towards His presence, and does not represent the end of life itself. How I feel towards that; I feel it is a comfort to know that the end is in His hands, and that although this life may be at time cut short (to our percpetion), it continues on in His presence. The end is assured through Him, and the end is good. Death is not the end of us, is simply a step in the continuation of our existance and only in this light can some sense be made of God's actions and decisions. Atheist see God killing humans as a tragedy, but take thing in perspective. If my young son is playing his games and I call him to stop playing so he comes to eat supper or get ready for bedtime; is it a terrible thing that I stop him from playing? Likewise, God ending our lives on earth is not His way of ending our existance, it is His way of calling us to another. So what may seem terrible in our 'child like' perception, is really just a simple act to carry us on our way for God. [/quote] Your answer seems good and without inconsistencies and I want to know your reasons in giving such ‘not inconsequential’ conclusion or belief and thus, show to us the answer to the question – Is God a just God? Or He is a moral monster as implied by this thread. You said ‘fact is that to those who believe, and to God Himself, death is not an evil, nor a loss’, and I agree because I too believe that even death is a blessing from God. You further said ‘The end is assured through Him, and the end is good. Death is not the end of us, is simply a step in the continuation of our existance and only in this light can some sense be made of God's actions and decisions’.’, as if you are saying ‘death thru natural disaster is an act of God in calling his children’. If that is the case, then I should believe, that too is a will of God (as part of His grand design in creating everything) since both of them, ‘Death and calamities’ are natural realities. And then, out of nowhere, it seems you separate yourself from them not only how you differ in seeing death - whether it is a tragedy or a blessing - but also to the forgiveness or blessing which will follow thru your little allegory since you did not explicitly say ‘all (believer or unbeliever, Christian or whatever) who died in that natural disaster will be saved (considering this natural disaster is an act of God in calling his children)'. Thus I posted and asked… [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318014170' post='2317528'] I agree. Apostle Paul said (Phil 1:21-22) ‘For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain’. Therefore, death is a blessing if you have assurance of salvation. On the other hand, ‘It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 10:31). Now, if this ‘tragedy’ is a God’s way in calling his children while playing, it is good if all of them will come ‘to eat supper or get ready for bedtime’ otherwise, this calling becomes questionable. Do you believe that the 9-11 incident is a God's will 'calling them to eat suffer and be ready for bedtime'? (Suicide terrorists believed they are giving honour to God in doing it). [/quote] The reason why I asked - ‘Do you believe that the 9-11 incident is a God's will 'calling them to eat suffer and be ready for bedtime'? (Suicide terrorists believed they are giving honour to God in doing it). – is because I want to magnify that in tragedies (natural calamities or 911) none of the victims willed their own death, and thus to ask you where is God righteousness in these scenarios in relation to your allegory. (..... If my young son is playing his games and I call him to stop playing so he comes to eat supper or get ready for bedtime; is it a terrible thing that I stop him from playing?). Thus I posted further…. [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1318043035' post='2317768'] I agree that even death is blessing but I do not agree to the reason given by didacus in saying it through his allegory. Your own answer can show it. If it is God' will then everyone must be forgiven otherwise God is unjust. But if it is not God's will, who's will prevail? Is there anyone greater than God? The question at hand is – Is God a just God? So, where is God’s justice in such ‘disastrous event’? [/quote] Now you are saying… [quote name='Didacus' timestamp='1318141335' post='2318448'] You seem to be mixing two different circumstances. My reply was aimed at circumstances when God Himself causes death to humanity. You refer in your reply to circumstances where humanity causes death on itself. The two are very different, and should be discussed seperately. Otherwise, we are only going to confuse the matter.[/quote] Okay so for a while let us set aside about 911 incident and focus on tsunami and earthquake as tragedies posted by Kia Ora. My first question: Are natural calamities happened because it is willed by God or not? Edited October 9, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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