Kia ora Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote]As said before death is only bad to an atheist. if God decides to kill me today it will because my mission is complete and he wants to bring me to his judgement. Hopefully he will be pleased with me if not then my fate will be my own choice, not his, because he loves me. God created all people for the purpose of eternal life with him. It's your choice to take it or not.[/quote]How do you feel when you hear about deaths then? For example, the recent Japanese earthquake and tsunami killed tens of thousands. How should a Christian feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1317627903' post='2314452'] How do you feel when you hear about deaths then? For example, the recent Japanese earthquake and tsunami killed tens of thousands. How should a Christian feel? [/quote] We care and pray for the living and with prayer we leave the dead to God's care. It is more logical that my brother prays for me rather than me for him. He has completed his journey I have not. Edited October 3, 2011 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317628908' post='2314455'] We care and pray for the living and with prayer we leave the dead to God's care[b]. It is more logical that my brother prays for me rather than me for him. He has completed his journey I have not.[/b] [/quote] Do you mean, they (your dead brothers) are also praying for you? (and do you think it is logical?). Edited October 3, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317639192' post='2314486'] Do you mean, they (your dead brothers) are also praying for you? (and do you think it is logical?). [/quote] Do you think love is logical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317639305' post='2314488'] Do you think love is logical? [/quote] Yes, true love is logical and a man with a deceiving heart is irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317640387' post='2314491'] Yes, true love is logical and a man with a deceiving heart is irrational. [/quote] Your logic is elastic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Sophia Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Risking generalization, it would seem non-believers have a very low tolerance for ambiguity, for all the gray areas on the long spectrum between black and white, for mystery, which is what "ambiguity" translates into for the believer. Believers can speak of the "mystery of suffering" without calling God onto the carpet for it. They can weep (and, if I am any example, they do and often) in the face of one horror or another and cry out spontaneously in their grief, "Why, Lord? Why?" but they do not make God the defendant in a trial in which they are the prosecutor. Why? Because they are not themselves God and (PAY ATTENTION HERE) they [u]know[/u] it. The non-believer, on the other hand, seems unware that he himself is not God and, whether he intends to or not, he puts himself in the place of God or on a par with God. He cannot see the absolute absurdity of his positioning himself this way - he cannot see that it is quintessence of irrationality. Edited October 3, 2011 by Aya Sophia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317644543' post='2314517'] The non-believer, on the other hand, seems unware that he himself is not God and, whether he intends to or not, he puts himself in the place of God or on a par with God. [/quote] This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317644543' post='2314517'] Risking generalization, it would seem non-believers have a very low tolerance for ambiguity, for all the gray areas on the long spectrum between black and white, for mystery, which is what "ambiguity" translates into for the believer. Believers can speak of the "mystery of suffering" without calling God onto the carpet for it. They can weep (and, if I am any example, they do and often) in the face of one horror or another and cry out spontaneously in their grief, "Why, Lord? Why?" but they do not make God the defendant in a trial in which they are the prosecutor. Why? Because they are not themselves God and (PAY ATTENTION HERE) they [u]know[/u] it. The non-believer, on the other hand, seems unware that he himself is not God and, whether he intends to or not, he puts himself in the place of God or on a par with God. He cannot see the absolute absurdity of his positioning himself this way - he cannot see that it is quintessence of irrationality. [/quote] A non believer sees ambiguity and acknowledges it for what it is. The non believer actually has a high tolerance for ambiguity and does not imagine up a resolution but asks questions seeking clarification, if clarification is not possible then this remains unknown. Non believers do not have all the answers, the universe contains many great mysteries, but Christians appear to have all the answers despite the lack of data, if it is deemed ambiguous, to them it is not, they have the answers, they made them up to fit comfortably with their world view. e.g. Catholics know god doesn't want women ordained, they know this because Jesus' twelve apostles were men, therefore.... With regards to being in place of or on par with god, a non believer does not believe that there is a god, how could we possibly relate ourselves to a non entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317666714' post='2314701'] With regards to being in place of or on par with god, a non believer does not believe that there is a god, how could we possibly relate ourselves to a non entity. [/quote] Most non believers will say they believe in themselves. I think what Aya is saying by god is their self awareness. Their self awareness is the only reality they have, but they are trapped within it knowing that it is terminal, so they would not logically consider it their god even though it's the centre of their existence. [quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317639192' post='2314486'] Do you mean, they (your dead brothers) are also praying for you? (and do you think it is logical?). [/quote] I saw Jesus in my brother on the day of his death. I have no doubt that my brother is in paradise from that day. He loves me! of course he will pray that I find my way from darkness. This to me is as logical as it can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Sophia Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 My recent inputs strung together here [url="http://ayasophia33.wordpress.com/"]http://ayasophia33.wordpress.com/[/url] with some colorful pictures and matching typeface. Pleasant to look at, anyway. I actually don't know how to speak to the arguments of atheists. I only have first hand experience of agnosticism and, not being gifted in apology, can only speak out of my experience. To me, "believer" means one who believes in the divinity of Christ while "non-believer" is one who does not. An agnostic and an atheist, in my experience and perception, are both non-believers, although there is a spectrum in belief and agnostics and atheists are not at the same point on that spectrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317676051' post='2314782'] To me, "believer" means one who believes in the divinity of Christ while "non-believer" is one who does not. An agnostic and an atheist, in my experience and perception, are both non-believers, although there is a spectrum in belief and agnostics and atheists are not at the same point on that spectrum. [/quote] I'd say that Agnostic is almost a useless term, it's just an acknowledgement that you have no proof or evidence of your standpoint be it one way or the other. There certainly are some theists who also claim to be agnostic. But really people tend to want to know if a person lacks a belief or believes that there is no god. A lot of people mistakenly think that Agnostic and Atheist pertains to these two positions. But really agnostic does not. A strong atheist believes there is no god. A weak atheist simply lacks a belief in god. The distinction is quite subtle, they both live their lives the same way, as if there is no god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 From Wikipedia [b]Agnosticism[/b] is the view that the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_value"][color="#0645ad"]truth value[/color][/url] of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity"][color="#0645ad"]deity[/color][/url], but also other religious and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics"][color="#0645ad"]metaphysical[/color][/url] claims—is unknown or unknowable.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#cite_note-0"][size="2"][color="#0645ad"][1][/color][/size][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#cite_note-Hepburn-1"][size="2"][color="#0645ad"][2][/color][/size][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#cite_note-RoweRoutledge-2"][size="2"][color="#0645ad"][3][/color][/size][/url][/sup] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism"][color="#0645ad"]skeptical[/color][/url] approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the difference between [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief"][color="#0645ad"]belief[/color][/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge"][color="#0645ad"]knowledge[/color][/url], rather than about any specific claim or belief. In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves there is a God, whereas an atheist disbelieves there is a God.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism#cite_note-RoweRoutledge-2"][size="2"][color="#0645ad"][3][/color][/size][/url][/sup] In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify knowledge whether God exists or does not. Within agnosticism there are [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism"][color="#0645ad"]agnostic atheists[/color][/url] (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism"][color="#0645ad"]agnostic theists[/color][/url] (who believe a God exists but do not claim to know that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317639305' post='2314488'] Do you think love is logical? [/quote] If love is fully understood then it probably is logical. It can easily be perceived as illogical though. Love is actually a hard concept to define. What is the difference between love and like, admire, depend upon, lust, fear, obedience... There is many a battered wife/girlfriend whom loves their tormentor. There is many a nice guy whom never gets the girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317644543' post='2314517'] Risking generalization, it would seem non-believers have a very low tolerance for ambiguity, for all the gray areas on the long spectrum between black and white, for mystery, which is what "ambiguity" translates into for the believer. Believers can speak of the "mystery of suffering" without calling God onto the carpet for it. They can weep (and, if I am any example, they do and often) in the face of one horror or another and cry out spontaneously in their grief, "Why, Lord? Why?" but they do not make God the defendant in a trial in which they are the prosecutor. Why? Because they are not themselves God and (PAY ATTENTION HERE) they [u]know[/u] it. [b] The non-believer, on the other hand, seems unware that he himself is not God and, whether he intends to or not, he puts himself in the place of God or on a par with God[/b]. He cannot see the absolute absurdity of his positioning himself this way - he cannot see that it is quintessence of irrationality. [/quote] None is saying ‘I am God’ unless he is insane and stupid but many are aspiring to be like God and it is still hidden from them. Ironically, many of them are in believers group more than that of unbelievers. Listen carefully. Who is willing and trying to become ‘holy’? (I Peter 1:16). Is it not in believers group? Who is hoping to have eternal life? Who is craving to know the Wisdom of God and learn to judge angels (1 Cor 6:3) and so that others have no right to judge him (2 Cor 2:15) ? In short, if you become holy and perfect, having eternal life, and learned the wisdom of a God for whatever reason and means, who do you think you are then? Take note of what Apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 12:2-4 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know — God knows. 3 And I know that this man — whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. Edited October 5, 2011 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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