Is God A Moral Monster?

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317368965' post='2312762']
If you were content in your atheism you would not be writing here. I think as all people do, you are searching.[/quote]
Although I am very content not having a god to believe in, I am searching.

Not for god, but searching for an understanding of people who are different to myself. I have certainly learnt alot in the time I have been here.

[Aya Sophia]

Tried to contribute a thoughtful reply last night but, as seems to happen a lot with me, hit an odd combination of keys and my text vanished, twice. (Won't say how long it took me to post those paras the other day in this thread!) Now it's Sat which comes with a to do list of its own (including 4PM Confession) so a thoughtful reply must wait or never be.

How about this prayer (or, call it a wish, if preferred) for stevil: "for the fulfillment of your heart's desires." (Believers, of course, know there are certain meanings in such a prayer than may not be apparent to the non-believer but never mind - I think it cannot be objectionable to be the object of such a "wish".)

Edited October 1, 2011 by Aya Sophia

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654']
How many people has god killed, according to the Bible?

[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html"]http://dwindlinginun...s-in-bible.html[/url]

What is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

[url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html"]http://dwindlinginun...e-or-quran.html[/url]

Cruelty and violence in the Bible?

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html"]http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html[/url]




Some thoughts for consideration.
[/quote]


Up to this moment, I am still waiting for some reply to belie the impression given by this thread that God is an unjust God.

It is not unusual for Catholics or even non Catholics to comment, ‘It is hard to understand or I do not know why’ since it is obvious that to ‘massacre’ the entire humanity including innocent children (except for some very lucky figures like Noah and his family as if you are watching a movie) is an unjust act. This is a test for those who profess to be Christians because seeing it is the same as knowing the righteousness of God (which is not or should not be hidden from True Christians because it was already revealed by God through Christ)

Edited October 1, 2011 by reyb

[Aya Sophia]

"Revenons a nos moutons . . . " Sorry for the straying thread - thanks for bringing it back on topic.

My agnosticism as a young person (before age 26) revolved entirely around the question of whether God was "good" or not. The agonising, distressing question that kept me, at best, in a state of disapproval of God and, at worst, in horror was: how could a good God allow all the atrocious, abysmal, unspeakable suffering there is in the world?

Still I do not have an answer to this question but I pose it differently. Now I ask: Why does suffering remain central in God's plan, central in the unfolding of Salvation History, central in the journey to God of each of his human creatures? What is this great and terrible [u]mystery[/u] of suffering?

My disapproval and horror in the face of a “monstrous god” are gone. So, although, strictly speaking I do not have an answer, in a very significant way I do because the question really is: how does one move from a position of disapproval, hubris, accusation, anguish, fear and horror towards a “monstrous god” to one of an appropriate humility and awe in the face of a great and terrible mystery hidden in the most unfathomable Mystery of all – God Himself, He Who Is and upon whom my own being is wholly contingent?

One moves positions not through apprehension of a concept but through contact with a Person, not in understanding something but in experiential knowledge of Someone, the man-god Jesus of Nazareth. This contact and knowledge are a divine gift, a grace, that causes non-believers to believe. The believer has an understanding (an integrated whole-person understanding, not just rationally, in the intellect) of how the very Person of Jesus Christ can be "the answer," at once comprehensive and insuperable. Belief allows a person to see Christ as the prism through which all of human history, in all its misery and glory, is refracted. Until we see through Him we cannot understand what it is we are looking at. Until we meet Him in the ground of our being we cannot have a hope of an “answer” to the question of our suffering.

P.S. We have two choices in this life, with regard to suffering: we can either suffer or we can love and suffer. We cannot not suffer. Ergo, another good ques is not "why suffering" ("why" seems actually to be none of my business) but "how do I respond to suffering"?

Edited October 1, 2011 by Aya Sophia

[reyb]

You do not answer the question. Is God an unjust God or not? (in relation to the subject topic)

Edited October 1, 2011 by reyb

[Winchester]

By definition, God would have to be just.

[Aya Sophia]

Roger that. God is just (although we may not understand his justice.) God is also merciful (although we may not understand....)

[stevil]

[quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317475979' post='2313337']
for stevil: "for the fulfillment of your heart's desires." (I think it cannot be objectionable to be the object of such a "wish".)
[/quote]
This is much better, it does not seem that you wish me to change into something that you would find more acceptable.
However you have essentially turned my desires into your prayer by proxy. So unwittingly I am praying without wanting to pray.

If prayer is truly powerful then this could be a dangerous thing. My own heart's desires could be that all religion is removed from society. It could be that my worst enemy is to die a horrible and painful death, it could be that I become very wealthy (which might come at the expense other peoples' livelihoods).
In this way you would have to truly trust my heart's desires before turning them into your own prayers.

But, I presume you believe that your god does not fulfill undeserving prayer, so this takes all the risk away.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317515712' post='2313563']


If prayer is truly powerful then this could be a dangerous thing. My own heart's desires could be that all religion is removed from society. It could be that my worst enemy is to die a horrible and painful death, it could be that I become very wealthy (which might come at the expense other peoples' livelihoods).
In this way you would have to truly trust my heart's desires before turning them into your own prayers.

[/quote]
Prayer can never work in the negative. When we got the news that my brother had been killed, I wanted to pray that there had been some mistake in the identification and that it was someone else. Of course this was extremely selfish and I did not do it. Everyone has to die! I just had to accept that it was his time. Numerous good prayers go unanswered. we can only have faith that it is because it is not part of God's plan.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317494101' post='2313443']
You do not answer the question. Is God an unjust God or not? (in relation to the subject topic)
[/quote]
God is just! Peoples misinterpretation of the Bible makes him seem unjust. In this case they are not reading the word of God, but are reading a book whose meaning they have been blinded to.

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317517171' post='2313574']
Prayer can never work in the negative. When we got the news that my brother had been killed, I wanted to pray that there had been some mistake in the identification and that it was someone else. Of course this was extremely selfish and I did not do it. Everyone has to die! I just had to accept that it was his time. Numerous good prayers go unanswered. we can only have faith that it is because it is not part of God's plan.
[/quote]
Sorry to hear about your brother.

Does this mean that there is no personal responsibility in prayer. You pray for whatever, and it is up to god to decide if the prayer is worthy or not, or within the plan or not?
So prayer is risk free, responsibility free.

And if there was already a plan then the event was already going to happen even if you didn't pray?

Edited October 2, 2011 by stevil

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317517481' post='2313577']
God is just! Peoples misinterpretation of the Bible makes him seem unjust. In this case they are not reading the word of God, but are reading a book whose meaning they have been blinded to.
[/quote]

The question is still standing.

[quote name='Mr.Cat' timestamp='1312035629' post='2278470']

But can you demonstrate how "god", in particular your god, is "the good". This doesn't exclude god being a "moral monster". But why is god not bound by his own rules and truth?

I am a skeptic, at the least. But it seems your answer is suspending critical thinking, this "abandonment" you mention. Is that the only way to believe in God? But while I find the admission that its a mystery refreshing, but it isn't an answer.

[/quote]


You too believe in Noah’s great flood to cleanse the earth and you also believe that God is just. But you failed to explain even to yourself how God become righteous in such a scenario. It seems you are ignoring to test yourself. You just believe that God is good without knowing his righteousness.

Edited October 2, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317517987' post='2313583']
Sorry to hear about your brother.
[/quote]
Thanks, but it happened a long time ago so no problem, I'm sure he is in a better place praying for my salvation.
[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317517987' post='2313583']
Does this mean that there is no personal responsibility in prayer. You pray for whatever, and it is up to god to decide if the prayer is worthy or not, or within the plan or not?
So prayer is risk free, responsibility free.

And if there was already a plan then the event was already going to happen even if you didn't pray?
[/quote]
Exactly! Prayer for something that is not right is not prayer and if it does not suit God's master plan it simply will not happen. When a friend of mine told me he was dying from cancer, knowing he was atheist, I told him I would pray for him. But my prayer was not for healing because I knew it was his time. My prayer was as an intercessor for the salvation of his soul, because he was a good man! This relates to the Catholic belief of praying to saints to intercede for us. We (All faithful to God) who have a close relationship with God can intercede for those who may not be able to reach him because of their belief or lack.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317522196' post='2313638']

The question is still standing.

[/quote]
Why? I believe I answered that!

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1317522196' post='2313638']

You too believe in Noah’s great flood to cleanse the earth and you also believe that God is just. But you failed to explain even to yourself how God become righteous in such a scenario. It seems you are ignoring to test yourself. You just believe that God is good without knowing his righteousness.
[/quote]
Mr Cat I think declares himself an atheist. In which case he would not believe in Noahs great flood, and does not believe in God. He is only questioning the Bible stories and rightly he should, it's a very complex instrument.

[Nunsense]

This whole debate is funny because for those who don't believe in God, the question is moot...


and for those who do, the question is ridiculous.

As St Paul said, 'We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.' -- Rom 8:28

So, to those who love Him, He can't be a moral monster. To those who don't, what does it matter what you think about Him?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317543508' post='2313792']
This whole debate is funny because for those who don't believe in God, the question is moot...


and for those who do, the question is ridiculous.

As St Paul said, 'We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.' -- Rom 8:28

So, to those who love Him, He can't be a moral monster. To those who don't, what does it matter what you think about Him?
[/quote]
I think the question is, does the Bible depict a God who is immoral and if so why? My answer is that the Bible is subject to interpretation. It can be both Gods word or the readers word depending on the persons faith and purpose. Naturally an atheist will see a God who is unjust, because they don't want anything that suggests that they may be wrong. Even children question the logistics of Noah's great flood and modern understanding of genetics pretty much debunks Adam & Eve as being literal. The style of writing in those days was to paint a word picture by comparison to a more easily understood story. Jesus resorted to it frequently with his parables.

[stevil]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317546011' post='2313805']
Naturally an atheist will see a God who is unjust, because they don't want anything that suggests that they may be wrong.[/quote]
The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god.
If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807']
The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god.
If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are.
[/quote]


Well, that's my point. since the Bible is simply a book to you, you read it with literalistic eyes - and see and judge God according to what you think you understand. That's why I recommend God, A Biography, the book because it tries to view God through those eyes - of what was written about Him and you would probably like it.

As for me though, the Bible is an inspired word of God that can be used to help me come closer to understanding Him and what He is trying to say to humans. I know that just as I can't ever comprehend the mind of God, I will also never be able to fully comprehend what is written in the scriptures -- I view both God and the scriptures through the eyes of a creature, not a Creator. I can only gain glimpses into what He is trying to tell me by the examples that are written there - and when they don't make sense to me, I trust in Him because I know His love for me beyond all doubt from personal experience. Perhaps that's the difference between reading the lines (those who don't know or acknowledge Him) and reading between the lines (those who know and love Him).

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317540985' post='2313769']

Why? I believe I answered that!

Mr Cat I think declares himself an atheist. In which case he would not believe in Noahs great flood, and does not believe in God. He is only questioning the Bible stories and rightly he should, it's a very complex instrument.
[/quote]


He is actually ‘questioning’ your reasoning on how God is just in that kind of scenario. I know you said ‘God is just’ but how come God is just in that kind of ‘killing the entire humanity’.

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317543508' post='2313792']
This whole debate is funny because for those who don't believe in God, the question is moot...
and for those who do, the question is ridiculous.
As St Paul said, 'We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.' -- Rom 8:28
So, to those who love Him, He can't be a moral monster. To those who don't, what does it matter what you think about Him?

[/quote]
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1317546011' post='2313805']
I think the question is, does the Bible depict a God who is immoral and if so why? My answer is that the Bible is subject to interpretation. It can be both Gods word or the readers word depending on the persons faith and purpose[b]. Naturally an atheist will see a God who is unjust, because they don't want anything that suggests that they may be wrong. [/b]Even children question the logistics of Noah's great flood and modern understanding of genetics pretty much debunks Adam & Eve as being literal. The style of writing in those days was to paint a word picture by comparison to a more easily understood story. Jesus resorted to it frequently with his parables.
[/quote]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807']
[b]The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god.[/b]
[b]If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book[/b]. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect. Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are.
[/quote]


The question is argumentative to those who do not believe since they are trying to see God’s righteousness through the words of believers. While those who believe that God is just but failed to see God’s righteousness (or in what way He became just), the question is ridiculous since they just accepted it by faith.

So their discussion leads to something like this: ‘Have faith, believe and do not ask for its reasoning’ this is what believers are trying to say to those who do not believe. Then, the unbelievers’ talkback, ‘Do you want us to accept and believe what you believe just because you say so?’ Show to us how your God became just? God is just!!! Prove it!!! Have faith you unbelieving soul!! No, no, no, because it is written in your book that your God is a murderer, killer, monster and an unjust God.

As it is written in the book of Romans, “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

Edited October 2, 2011 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807']
The majority of atheists are not right or wrong on this. We don't have a belief that there is a god and we don't have a belief that there isn't a god.
[/quote]
If you are not sure if there is or isn't a God then you are not atheist, you are agnostic.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807']
If looking at the old testament we read what it actually says, literally. We don't interpret, we don't hold that the book is the "Truth" to us it is just a book. We do not interpret it with a base that god is good, that god is perfect.
[/quote]
I was trying to explain/understand what Mr Cat has been saying. And have been saying that it cannot be read literally. I'm aware that I may be at odds with the Church by having this view point but I don't understand why, because in actuality the Church only claims infallibility on matters of faith and morals. Interpretation of the scriptures is and needs to be open. Faith is an ever growing thing it is not static. If the Bible were literal and logical this situation could not be. I think the Church often tries to be like the PC system it wants to remain backwards compatible and that just doesn't work. As I've said before the Bible read by an atheist is worthless. It is not an historical document and it is rather boring to read it as fiction. If you read it as a fictional story of a fictional God who is immoral then why bother reading it? Sense that makes non.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317547686' post='2313807']
Without this as a starting point how could we possibly conclude that a god who sets bears onto children, who drowns almost everyone and everything is good? We don't give the god of the bible the benefit of the doubt, we read the stories literally for what they are.
[/quote]
Here's an example of the error of non believers who do not know God. Okay, this man gets angry he prays to God for revenge, the bears beset his tormentors. How can you conclude that God actually did it? Animals are sensitive creatures, they may have sensed malice in those children and acted in defence of themselves. IMHO The notion that God set the bears on them is laughable. If there were any metaphysical interference at all it would be the devil trying to make God look evil to discourage people. And I've already explained that many think the great flood to be a metaphor for something much deeper due to the fact that it is totally illogical as a literal story. And the real interpretation would not depict God as immoral. As said before death is only bad to an atheist. if God decides to kill me today it will because my mission is complete and he wants to bring me to his judgement. Hopefully he will be pleased with me if not then my fate will be my own choice, not his, because he loves me. God created all people for the purpose of eternal life with him. It's your choice to take it or not.