Mr.Cat Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) How many people has god killed, according to the Bible? [url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html"]http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html[/url] What is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? [url="http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html"]http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html[/url] Cruelty and violence in the Bible? [url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html"]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html[/url] Some thoughts for consideration. Edited July 22, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat
Mr.Cat Posted July 22, 2011 Author Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) If sourcing verifiable facts is argumentative, then I am willing to concede that my post is argumentative. If it is anti-christian to have concerns about these sort of verses in the Bible, then I am willing to concede it is anti-christian. It deserves adequate consideration and response, to reject it merely because its uncomfortable to consider or address, is disturbing and dishonest. Edited July 22, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 Go start your own thread in teh debate board if you want to discuss/debate all that. As far as I'm concerned you're flame baiting. Please leave me alone.
Mr.Cat Posted July 22, 2011 Author Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311318829' post='2273660']Go start your own thread in teh debate board if you want to discuss/debate all that. As far as I'm concerned you're flame baiting. Please leave me alone.[/quote]If you don't want to reply to it, here is a hint, don't reply to it. I understand how difficult that might be. Flame baiting assumes the want to start an argument, which was not the intention, but you have decided to take the time to turn this personal. It is relevant and on topic. You may call it whatever you like, it is a valid concern and does deserve addressing by Catholic theology/doctrine. Is this the only response for those sincerely concerned about these sort of matters in the Bible? That it's flame bait? Edited July 22, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat
Mr.Cat Posted July 22, 2011 Author Posted July 22, 2011 Laudate_Dominum, why did you just randomly respond to this topic? Are you stalking me?
stevil Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 I think there is a good discussion to be had here. I have never read the bible so have only heard of bits of it. But.. Stories about god setting a couple of she-bears onto a group of children for teasing a man about his bald head. How is this reasoned? If a person did that in our society they would be scorned as a horrific monster and would be locked up for a very long time. I understand that Christians take god as being perfect and all loving and hence come up with a reasoning which tries to align with that. God always gets the benefit of the doubt, and hence can do pretty much anything, including killing all the people, all the animals, all the plants of the entire world except two of each. Then this story is glorified and seen as a significant good that god has done.
CatherineM Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 I once heard a mom scream at her son that she brought him into the world, and she could take him right out if she wanted to. If God is the creator, he can alter his creation as he sees fit.
Lil Red Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311373432' post='2274010'] I think there is a good discussion to be had here. I have never read the bible so have only heard of bits of it. But.. Stories about god setting a couple of she-bears onto a group of children for teasing a man about his bald head. How is this reasoned? If a person did that in our society they would be scorned as a horrific monster and would be locked up for a very long time. I understand that Christians take god as being perfect and all loving and hence come up with a reasoning which tries to align with that. God always gets the benefit of the doubt, and hence can do pretty much anything, including killing all the people, all the animals, all the plants of the entire world except two of each. Then this story is glorified and seen as a significant good that god has done. [/quote] it wasn't just two of each animal. It was six of each, i think. More animals for sacrifice.
ceciliatherese Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 was wondering the same thing, I've never really gotten an actual response from it each other, most people say I'm taking it out of context, but then wont give me the reasoning when it is in context.
Brother Adam Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I agree L_D's response is very strange. However, I don't know what you think, just what your document dump thinks, which is no way to really start a conversation. When you say "If sourcing verifiable facts is argumentative, then I am willing to concede that my post is argumentative. If it is anti-christian to have concerns about these sort of verses in the Bible, then I am willing to concede it is anti-christian." it makes me think you really aren't interested in a genuine conversation at all, but are just angry with the Church you once called home. Your question (accusation) is almost as old as the Church itself (almost as old as 'why do bad things happen to good people?' and 'how can God let children die?') and is dealt with in the Catechism, writings of the Fathers, and in many contemporaries. The answer, by the way, has to do with the nature of God's relationship to man, but I think all of the scholars and other Catholics want to know that you want an answer before getting into a long debate.
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311384764' post='2274117'] I agree L_D's response is very strange. However, I don't know what you think, just what your document dump thinks, which is no way to really start a conversation. When you say "If sourcing verifiable facts is argumentative, then I am willing to concede that my post is argumentative. [/quote] This thread was made by the mods who split it from a thread of mine in Transmundane. The thread: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=114230"]Is God a Moral Monster?[/url] What the mods said. [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1311366042' post='2273960'] Some posts in this thread have been split off and put in the Debate Table for those interested in debate. If you wish to debate, please go there. Thank you, MIKolbe [/quote] So no, I didn't randomly respond in this thread. This is my first post here. I don't think my above comment should have been included in the split, but that's just me. Edited July 23, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum
Guest Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I think its hard to understand. If I didn't believe in the God of the Bible I would without a doubt use the old testement as the reason why. But I do believe in the God of the Bible and I've experienced His love and grace. He's good. And I hope this isn't blaspemous or taken wrong but I think Him coming here and taking human flesh and realising our weaknesses made Him even more loving and forgiving towards us. To the point of laying His life down for us on the cross so we could come into friendship with Him.
homeschoolmom Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311318829' post='2273660'] Go start your own thread in teh debate board if you want to discuss/debate all that. As far as I'm concerned you're flame baiting. Please leave me alone. [/quote] [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311367654' post='2273969'] Laudate_Dominum, why did you just randomly respond to this topic? Are you stalking me? [/quote] I think you were aware that this and the thread in TL were once one thread. Why make comments to derail this thread? [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311384764' post='2274117'] I agree L_D's response is very strange. [/quote] I'm sure you'd agree, it wasn't strange in light of this: [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1311405228' post='2274252'] This thread was made by the mods who split it from a thread of mine in Transmundane. The thread: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=114230"]Is God a Moral Monster?[/url] What the mods said. So no, I didn't randomly respond in this thread. This is my first post here. I don't think my above comment should have been included in the split, but that's just me. [/quote]
Winchester Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 Since God would be The Good, it's impossible for God to be immoral. Your morality and the laws laid down for humans need not apply to God. This question was settled in ancient philosophy.
Era Might Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) Mr.CatholicCat, I didn't know you were an atheist now, but I suggest you read St. Paul's letter to the Romans, where he talks about the inscrutable mystery of God's will. But read the whole letter, because it's important to understand the whole letter in context. I read it recently and it is very profound for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. A big theme in the letter is Abraham as our model of faith. Recall that God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Abraham was going to do it in faith, but God stopped him at the last minute. Now in response to your question, "Is God a moral monster," I will only point out that what God did not require of Abraham, he carried out himself. God did not require Abraham to sacrifice his son, but God himself did send his only-begotten son to be sacrificed. We cannot even begin to try and understand the Old Testament unless the Cross of Christ is put at the center of the discussion. [quote]What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'my beloved.'" And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called `sons of the living God.'" --Romans 9:14-26[/quote] Some people will read this and conclude that God is unjust and a "moral monster." But not me. Don't get me wrong, what St. Paul is saying here is not easy to take. But when I read this, I am completely humbled at the absolute irrelevance of my own will. That is the entire message of the Gospel: our relationship to God is an act of absolute abandonment, and this is what we call faith. Not only can we not will ourselves to heaven, but we cannot even will ourselves to being loved by God. We can only abandon ourselves to him, and in doing so we are following the example of Abraham, and the example of Christ, because nobody has ever abandoned themselves to God more than Christ. Edited July 23, 2011 by Era Might
4588686 Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1311449263' post='2274431'] Mr.CatholicCat, I didn't know you were an atheist now, but I suggest you read St. Paul's letter to the Romans, where he talks about the inscrutable mystery of God's will. But read the whole letter, because it's important to understand the whole letter in context. I read it recently and it is very profound for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. A big theme in the letter is Abraham as our model of faith. Recall that God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Abraham was going to do it in faith, but God stopped him at the last minute. Now in response to your question, "Is God a moral monster," I will only point out that what God did not require of Abraham, he carried out himself. God did not require Abraham to sacrifice his son, but God himself did send his only-begotten son to be sacrificed. We cannot even begin to try and understand the Old Testament unless the Cross of Christ is put at the center of the discussion. Some people will read this and conclude that God is unjust and a "moral monster." But not me. It's not easy to take, don't get me wrong. But when I read this, I am completely humbled at the absolute irrelevance my own will has. That is the entire message of the Gospel: our relationship to God is an act of absolute abandonment, and this is what we call faith. Not only can we not will ourselves to heaven, but we cannot even will ourselves to being loved by God. We can only abandon ourselves to him, and in doing so we are following the example of Abraham, and the example of Christ, because nobody has ever abandoned themselves to God more than Christ. [/quote] Ok. What light does the Cross of Christ shed on this [url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html"]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html[/url] ?
Era Might Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1311449454' post='2274432'] Ok. What light does the Cross of Christ shed on this [url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html"]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html[/url] ? [/quote] Maybe you should take to a monastery and find out for yourself. Nothing I say is going to convince you (which is not so much a bad thing, since it means that I cannot will you to faith...that too requires abandonment, on my part as much as yours). Edited July 23, 2011 by Era Might
Polsky215 Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654']<br />How many people has god killed, according to the Bible?<br /><br /><a href='http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'>http://dwindlinginun...s-in-bible.html</a><br /><br />What is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?<br /><br /><a href='http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'>http://dwindlinginun...e-or-quran.html</a><br /><br />Cruelty and violence in the Bible?<br /><br /><a href='http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'>http://skepticsannot...uelty/long.html</a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Some thoughts for consideration.<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br /> Morality in the Catholic perspective is simply being in union with God. But God doesnt need to be in union with Himself. We dont know what compensation He gave to those people He killed. God knows what He's doing. So there are two points to understand. (1) The human rules of morality (e.g. do not kill) were given by God to help people follow the "main idea," that is love God (the greatest commandment). Thus God does not need to follow those human rules. Hes already in union with Himself and has no need. (2) God is loving and He clearly thought that ending the lives of those people was more to their benefit or at least of no less cost to those people than letting them live.
Ziggamafu Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 The Bible is not a complete record of history, but only records (without error) that history necessary to best convey the message of salvation. We may know that God exists (and God must logically be the source and standard of goodness), and there are sufficient grounds for our faith in Christ (and, by extension, the Church and the Bible). So when we come to troubling passages, it may well be that we simply do not have the extra information that would make God's action not only reasonable, but unarguably perfect. The Bible paints a picture of history; it does not convey every detail, nor does it convey its own words without the need for interpretation. We may know God. We may know faith in His Son and His Church. We may not know all the answers to the questions the ancient Scriptures prompts, but we may certainly know enough to trust in the perfect, Eternal Act of an omnibenevolant God of mercy and grace, and in the ways in which that Act affects the myriad moments of our temporal, created world. My stance not only applies to the tragedies recorded in Scripture, but to those of our contemporary world as well. When we wrestle with tragedy and apparent injustice, we wrestle with God; and so it is in the very act of this wrestling that our souls, consciously or not, advert to a God who is very much there, a Source and Standard of Goodness by which our discomforts are vindicated in the first place. In short, the only way God could be a moral monster is if the records in Scripture were exhaustive and complete, and if (in that case) the God depicted turned out to be no God at all. It seems as though there are more than a few presuppositions involved in using the Bible against the God depicted within its pages. God bless and keep you.
Winchester Posted July 24, 2011 Posted July 24, 2011 The only way God can be a moral monster is if morality has an existence outside of Him. In which case, He would not be God.
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