Is God A Moral Monster?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312224724' post='2279820']
I'm not crying. But keep demonizing me. Keep it coming...[/quote]
I don't think it's demonizing you to say you're crying. I haven't demonized you at all. I did use cultist imagery, but it was tempered with some silliness so I don't think that can be stretched to demonization. I retract 'crying' and leave nothing in its place as a continuance of my argument.

[quote]Now you're just being funny.
[/quote]
Again, agreement.

[Guest]

Death is just that. Death. Everybody dies. Its where you spend eternity at in the next life that matters. If innocent lives werre taken God more then made up for it in eternity. Because God is good. Humans are bad. Evil. Even those who speak for Him. Humans are lucky God didn't throw us all under the bus. But instead He died on the cross for us so we could be found innocent. Lucky us.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Guest

[ceciliatherese]

This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314165758' post='2294142']
This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.
[/quote]
If it makes you feel any better I'm not a theological voluntarist and I think that this issue is largely one of hermeneutics.

[Papist]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1311316686' post='2273654']
Some thoughts for consideration.
[/quote]


Topic title is, Is God a Moral Monster? I can't answer until it is defined what a Moral Monster is, or what you define as a Moral Monster.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1314184721' post='2294158']


Topic title is, Is God a Moral Monster? I can't answer until it is defined what a Moral Monster is, or what you define as a Moral Monster.
[/quote]
Again, this is a split topic from a thread I made in transmundane by the same name. Why the name? It's the title of a book by Paul Copan which is more or less what the original thread was about. It wasn't a debate thread.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751"]Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God[/url]

[Papist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1314209431' post='2294253']
Again, this is a split topic from a thread I made in transmundane by the same name. Why the name? It's the title of a book by Paul Copan which is more or less what the original thread was about. It wasn't a debate thread.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/God-Moral-Monster-Making-Testament/dp/0801072751"]Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God[/url]
[/quote]
Ooops.

[img]http://newhiptips.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/images.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314165758' post='2294142']
This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.
[/quote]
I realize what I'm saying. If you believe morality has an existence independent of God, then it is possible for Him to act immorally. If you believe God created everything and that the moral order was created for humans, then it is impossible for God to act immorally.

After that, we may then argue about whether God is loving or not. But that's not the question (which was really a breathless bit of trollery/it'syourfaulti'mnotacatholicanymoreyoumeanymeanpersons).

Edited August 26, 2011 by Winchester

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1314352349' post='2295146']
I realize what I'm saying. If you believe morality has an existence independent of God, then it is possible for Him to act immorally. If you believe God created everything and that the moral order was created for humans, then it is impossible for God to act immorally.

After that, we may then argue about whether God is loving or not. But that's not the question (which was really a breathless bit of trollery/it'syourfaulti'mnotacatholicanymoreyoumeanymeanpersons).
[/quote]


Well, since my opinion was only a 'breathless bit of trollery', I think we're done here, any further discussion would be pointless.

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1314171677' post='2294147']
If it makes you feel any better I'm not a theological voluntarist and I think that this issue is largely one of hermeneutics.
[/quote]


Thanks for being civil Yeah, I guess it is. I mean, I love God. I love him very much, and throughout my life I'm just amazed that He's stuck with me for so long. It awes me. And I think He's very complex, and that we can never reach the point of fully understanding Him in this lifetime. BUT, He did give us a brain, an intellect. He made humans a bunch of very curious, very nosy, creatures who are always asking 'why' (which is okay). He's so humble that he actually wants us to love Him, and when we read in his book that he commanded something that we thought was immoral, I think he would want us to dig and dig until we can, to the best of our ability, know why, so that that doubt doesn't get in the way of us trying to love Him to the best of our ability. Personally, I wonder at the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ, and whenever I hear somebody say, "God ordered rape, He ordered genocide", etc. I try to look at it in light of the utterly baffling sacrifice of God on the cross. A God who died for screwed up creatures like us needs a reason to order stuff that we consider immoral. I think it's just our job to hunt out those reasons.
That's why it's frustrating to me to hear people just brush over it. Because it IS a big thing, and God wouldn't just order something like that because He can "Do anything' or something like that. It had to be for a bigger reason, a reason that should be within our reach, because he wouldn't put stuff like that in His book if we couldn't understand it. That would be pretty contradictory and would lead to a lot of confusion.
Anyway, sorry to ramble -.- I get caught up in this stuff. Hope you understood everything I said and I don't sound like a complete nutcase, haha.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314559448' post='2296410']


Well, since my opinion was only a 'breathless bit of trollery', I think we're done here, any further discussion would be pointless.
[/quote]
You're not the OP, so you didn't ask the question to which I'm referring. I answered your question with my first sentence, then paraphrased my position and then proceeded to evaluate [i]the [/i]question, which was, if you know the OP, just more drama. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1314560140' post='2296420']
You're not the OP, so you didn't ask the question to which I'm referring. I answered your question with my first sentence, then paraphrased my position and then proceeded to evaluate [i]the [/i]question, which was, if you know the OP, just more drama. Sorry I wasn't clear.
[/quote]
Oh okay, it's all good.

[havok579257]

[quote name='ceciliatherese' timestamp='1314165758' post='2294142']
This whole thread really disturbs me. Do you guys realize what you're saying? You're saying that someone who ordered the murder, rape, pillaging, etc. of millions of people was okay in doing so. What if those victims had been your own family and friends? You all only seem to have on rose colored glasses and refuse to look at it as it is but decided to instead point fingers at the people who justly find a problem with humans being treated that way. It reminds me of a picture I once saw of some sign, that read "Thou shalt not kill. -God" and it itself was splattered with blood. It honestly makes me sick.
[/quote]

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626507' post='2296870']

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.
[/quote]

That's great that you have such faith. Personally for me, and for many, many others, we feel the need to dig deeper and understand Him and his actions more fully, so the we can know and love Him more. I commend you for being able to just accept actions, but I cant, especially since I know people who have suffered lots, and I need to know the reason for that, as best as I can.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626507' post='2296870']

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.
[/quote]
God made morality for man. It does not exist without Him. What is good is to obey God.

[Nunsense]

I can relate to why you want to know all these things but let's face it, you have as much hope of understanding God's reasons for what He does, as you do of emptying the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon (with credit to St Augustine on the impossibility of understanding the Trinity).

Even if you find the explanation for just one of the things in scripture that perplex you, there would be another, and another and yet another and your life would be over before you ever got close to complete understanding (which is truly impossible with our finite and temporal perspective on life, the universe, and everything). That doesn't mean you shouldn't try - by all means go ahead and do so. But just remember that even the brilliant St Thomas Aquinas came to the conclusion that all his writings were 'as straw' and wanted to burn them! Because in the end, it all boils down to love.

God allows us to question and search and ask and ponder - but what pleases Him most is pure and simple faith. Our faith demonstrates love and trust in Him, and what it says to Him is "Okay, Lord, I don't really understand why you do what you do, or what it all means, but as an act of faith, I am going to trust that you do know best, and that everything you do is out of pure love for us and for all your creation." This is the faith of a child for their parent - not knowing why Mom or Dad does what they do, but trusting that it must be okay if they think it is. And no mother or father could ever be as loving and kind, as fair and just, and merciful or as generous as God is towards His creation.

This kind of faith is the pearl of great price that Jesus speaks of in His parables. The surest way to know God is through faith. It sounds like a very trite answer, but it's true. And in writing this, I don't mean to dismiss your need to know or to understand, not at all.... let's just say that, having walked down that road, I found myself travelling in a circle that led back to the beginning again - to the need for faith and trust in His love for us. But hey, sometimes just walking the road can be part of the whole process that God uses to bring us closer, so have fun along the way!

[rizz_loves_jesus]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1314626507' post='2296870']

God is the source of all good. everything he does is good and just and right. if we don't understand it and think its immoral,that's our fault,not his. we are the ones with the inferior intellect, not God. whatever God does he is just and right in doing so. when your the creator of all life, you do so as you wish.
[/quote]

I could understand killing someone in that sense, but rape? How is rapeever justified? [i]Ever[/i]?

[ceciliatherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1314632243' post='2296892']
I can relate to why you want to know all these things but let's face it, you have as much hope of understanding God's reasons for what He does, as you do of emptying the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon (with credit to St Augustine on the impossibility of understanding the Trinity).

Even if you find the explanation for just one of the things in scripture that perplex you, there would be another, and another and yet another and your life would be over before you ever got close to complete understanding (which is truly impossible with our finite and temporal perspective on life, the universe, and everything). That doesn't mean you shouldn't try - by all means go ahead and do so. But just remember that even the brilliant St Thomas Aquinas came to the conclusion that all his writings were 'as straw' and wanted to burn them! Because in the end, it all boils down to love.

God allows us to question and search and ask and ponder - but what pleases Him most is pure and simple faith. Our faith demonstrates love and trust in Him, and what it says to Him is "Okay, Lord, I don't really understand why you do what you do, or what it all means, but as an act of faith, I am going to trust that you do know best, and that everything you do is out of pure love for us and for all your creation." This is the faith of a child for their parent - not knowing why Mom or Dad does what they do, but trusting that it must be okay if they think it is. And no mother or father could ever be as loving and kind, as fair and just, and merciful or as generous as God is towards His creation.

This kind of faith is the pearl of great price that Jesus speaks of in His parables. The surest way to know God is through faith. It sounds like a very trite answer, but it's true. And in writing this, I don't mean to dismiss your need to know or to understand, not at all.... let's just say that, having walked down that road, I found myself travelling in a circle that led back to the beginning again - to the need for faith and trust in His love for us. But hey, sometimes just walking the road can be part of the whole process that God uses to bring us closer, so have fun along the way!
[/quote]

I didn't find your answer trite, I thought it was pretty beautiful actually. The thing is though, that you'd find it a bit hard to love a God who seemingly ordered rape too, wouldn't you? Even though He's done so many other loving things (his crucifixion and death) there are those few blaring things, that make you just wonder, why? If God's good, why would he do this? See, you need to have a basis as to why he's good, to accept those things that don't make sense. I also have a very outspokenly atheist brother, who is VERY convincing. He's raised many issues with me. I believe God's smarter than atheism, and He needs to have answers to those questions atheists raise, and the answers have to be within our reach. Hope I made sense O.o

[Gregorius]

My goodness. I don't even know where to begin. I guess rather than trying to pick out pieces from the last couple of pages I'll just make a claim on my own, and then anyone can comment/contest that claim if they want.
TL;DR section. If you want to skip this part, scroll to the bottom of the post where you will see "/TL;DR", as I can't find the spoiler tags in this new format.

The question is, is God a moral monster? in that question one must first take certain factors into consideration:
"God" in this case apparently refers to the Judeo-Christian God. This is because it seems this thread is a split-off from another thread where the same deity was being discussed.
Also, it appears in the context of this particular thread that for Christian purposes, previous posters were speaking specifically about God the Father, whether or not it is theologically correct to speak of God in such manner as being so separated from the other two persons of the Trinity.
In the context of this question arose another one, that of the origin of morality. Keep in mind that moral systems and values held by various human beings over the course of human existence are not necessarily the same as morals in the objective sense, or their correlation to reality. If you all will forgive my gross paraphrasing of Wikipedia, there is a difference between morality in the "descriptive" and "normative sense". Go look up the article for further explanation.
Finally, if the readers of this thread can agree a little bit more on what is meant by "God" and "morality", we can ask, "is God a moral monster?" Specifically, what is cited is a page listing verses that show where God either kills, or has people do the same. Do these acts make God a moral monster? That is why the thread is being discussed.

/TL;DR

I am making a counterclaim to what I am assuming is the original poster's claim in this thread.[b] No, God is not a moral monster.[/b]

Discuss.

[Gregorius]

Also, Charity. Please refraining from referring to atheists as emotionally disgruntled ex-Catholics or whatever previous posters did, and don't refer to Catholics as religious fanatics who want to murder people or whatever it was that previous posters did. Thank You.