Is God A Moral Monster?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312051769' post='2278570']
I doubt Plato would agree with you. But you are asserting theological beliefs so far, unless you can demonstrate otherwise. Why are you so resistant to verifying your claims? Do you think claiming something makes it true?[/quote]
Where have I contradicted Plato's argument about The Good, or the nature of what is really real?

[quote]The answer to that is, YES. You claim god exists and anything you claim god says is moral. Truth![/quote]
I've never said that anything I say God said is moral.

[quote]Are you changing your arguments, ignoring questions, not refuting arguments, and not supporting your claims. Yes, yes you are.[/quote]
I have explained to you the very specific terms of my refutation that a Creator can be evil, assuming he created morality and that it does not exist outside of the creator. I have covered how this would apply to the Christian God.

[quote]Not Christianity, since it existed before Christians came around. But why let history get in the way of your beliefs?



Since this topic is not about the origin of morals, it is about the horrifying violence and killing found in the Bible, commanded and conducted by god. However since you are claiming that "divine command" somehow works, thus god is somehow exempt from his no killing and charity commands... also those who obeyed god's call for death and violence. This is moral to you. I suppose I can't change your mind about it.[/quote]
The origin of morality cannot be separated from the question of whether God is moral or not. To my knowledge, no moral law was ever given to God in the Bible. He laid those laws down on his creatures.

If you're going to list all the not-origins of morality, this will be a long thread indeed.

[quote]So will you concede that Muslims are moral people for obeying their god's command to kill infidels? Yes?
[/quote]
If morality is defined by the beliefs of the individual, then one becomes moral or immoral by his own decision. If morality exists outside of man and is unchanged by his opinions or circumstances, then the Muslims would only be moral if they were in fact adhering to an objective real morality. If the morality of the Muslims has originated in a single man and does not conform to an eternal morality, then they would be at odds with that morality and thus immoral.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']Where have I contradicted Plato's argument about The Good, or the nature of what is really real?[/quote]I doubt Plato would approve of Christian theology, he would most likely see it as another human made religion. Where their gods are just as human and criminal as we are. But if you could source Plato to verify your claims, that would help.

Though surely you realize that would then make it only a philosophical opinion. Maybe not though...[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']I've never said that anything I say God said is moral.[/quote]Not what I wrote, "anything you claim god says". Subtle distinction.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']I have explained to you the very specific terms of my refutation that a Creator can be evil, assuming he created morality and that it does not exist outside of the creator. I have covered how this would apply to the Christian God.[/quote]No... you haven't. What you have done is called "special pleading", it's an informal logic fallacy.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']The origin of morality cannot be separated from the question of whether God is moral or not.[/quote]Yes it can and it is all the time. Except by religious fanatics. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']To my knowledge, no moral law was ever given to God in the Bible. He laid those laws down on his creatures.[/quote]Which apparently he contradicts on whim.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']If you're going to list all the not-origins of morality, this will be a long thread indeed.[/quote]I just assumed you read me before writing "[b]Ultimately it is people who decide what morality is, even if it is from a supposed 'god'.[/b]" But I would also assume our sense of morality has evolved with us and is apart of our neurology.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312052673' post='2278584']If morality is defined by the beliefs of the individual, then one becomes moral or immoral by his own decision. If morality exists outside of man and is unchanged by his opinions or circumstances, then the Muslims would only be moral if they were in fact adhering to an objective real morality. If the morality of the Muslims has originated in a single man and does not conform to an eternal morality, then they would be at odds with that morality and thus immoral.[/quote]Killing has always and everywhere been generally accepted as wrong. So by your standard, your bible and god is at odds with eternity and morality.

But yes an individual chooses for themselves what they will believe or accept... or if they will act on those beliefs. Since believing a code of morals does not guarantee that they will be moral.

The problem you encounter is that believing in your god as a source of morals is subjective, not objective. If you stopped believing in your god, you could no longer accept that god as a source of morals. It is contingent on your belief in this god and this faith that he is the supreme arbiter of right and wrong.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[stevil]

If god speaks to you in your head. You hear His voice and you KNOW it is Him and He tells you to kill a person or many people, do you take Abraham's example and trust in the Lord and to the best of your ability attempt to kill these people?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312053740' post='2278592']
. What you have done is called "special pleading", it's an informal logic fallacy.
[/quote]
You don't think there's a difference between man and God?

Edited July 31, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312071770' post='2278747']You don't think there's a difference between man and God?[/quote]What you are arguing is like this.

Person X claims O is wrong on grounds of A.
Person X has done O.
Person X is exempt from A.

This is a classic form of special pleading. It doesn't matter if you throw in that your god is a "super-god". Logically, it is still an informal logic fallacy. If you don't understand then I cannot help you.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312076886' post='2278784']
What you are arguing is like this.

Person X claims O is wrong on grounds of A.
Person X has done O.
Person X is exempt from A.

This is a classic form of special pleading. It doesn't matter if you throw in that your god is a "super-god". Logically, it is still an informal logic fallacy. If you don't understand then I cannot help you.
[/quote]
That applies if the people are equals. In your version, there could be no parenting without an informal logical fallacy. So parents would always have to wear ties.

You couldn't have government, either. Or property. You apparently don't admit status as a criteria in "O"

And I haven't actually formulated the argument that way. I've stated that God is not subject to the moral order because it is a creature--his creature, in fact. God is distinct from His creation. (that's the Christian version). I've also observed that God never claimed he subjected himself to the moral order he established for Creation.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312077129' post='2278786']That applies if the people are equals. In your version, there could be no parenting without an informal logical fallacy. So parents would always have to wear ties.[/quote]No, it doesn't. It applies to when you are making EXEMPTIONS. Which you are. For example... A parent tells a child it's wrong to kill. But then the parent kills the child. According to your reasoning this is acceptable because the parent not only made the child, but raised and provided for the child. They are not equals according to you. This is not logical.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312077129' post='2278786']You couldn't have government, either. Or property. You apparently don't admit status as a criteria in "O"[/quote]Yes, we could have government and property,[mod]Mikolbe-Personal Atack[/mod] [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312077129' post='2278786']And I haven't actually formulated the argument that way. I've stated that God is not subject to the moral order because it is a creature--his creature, in fact. God is distinct from His creation. (that's the Christian version). I've also observed that God never claimed he subjected himself to the moral order he established for Creation.[/quote]God never subjected himself to creation or a moral order, did you forget about your Jesus already?

But the moment you make an exemption, you are making a special plea. It's no different from a creationist saying, "[b]everything must of been caused and created, [/b][u][b]except god[/b][/u]." It's special pleading, the only way you could show how it's not special pleading is giving demonstrable evidence to your claim. Which because you are referring to "god", there is nothing demonstrable or in means of evidence, its only your beliefs and convictions, completely arbitrary and subjective.

But lets see how you formulated this argument:

"God" claims "killing" is wrong, because "god said so" thus "injures union with god because god said so".
"God" has "killed" millions of people.
"God" is exempt from what he says.

How is this not special pleading?

Edited August 1, 2011 by MIkolbe
Warning for Personal Attack

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1312053784' post='2278593']If god speaks to you in your head. You hear His voice and you KNOW it is Him and He tells you to kill a person or many people, do you take Abraham's example and trust in the Lord and to the best of your ability attempt to kill these people.[/quote]I doubt it would work in a secular court. Maybe a religious court?

Edited July 31, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312107855' post='2278927']
No, it doesn't. It applies to when you are making EXEMPTIONS. Which you are. For example... A parent tells a child it's wrong to kill. But then the parent kills the child.[/quote]
Do you believe the differences between God and man are irrelevant?
[quote]For example... A parent tells a child it's wrong to kill. But then the parent kills the child. According to your reasoning this is acceptable because the parent not only made the child, but raised and provided for the child. They are not equals according to you. This is not logical.[/quote]
You chose an example that I did not choose. The parent would be only be committing a fallacy if that parent exempted himself in that killing from that rule. Saying speeding is wrong and then speeding isn't a logical fallacy.

[quote]Yes, we could have government and property, your poor education or understanding of logic doesn't impede others who don't have your limitations.[/quote]



[quote]God never subjected himself to creation or a moral order, did you forget about your Jesus already?[/quote]


[quote]But the moment you make an exemption, you are making a special plea. It's no different from a creationist saying, "[b]everything must of been caused and created, [/b][u][b]except god[/b][/u]." It's special pleading, the only way you could show how it's not special pleading is giving demonstrable evidence to your claim. Which because you are referring to "god", there is nothing demonstrable or in means of evidence, its only your beliefs and convictions, completely arbitrary and subjective.

But lets see how you formulated this argument:

"God" claims "killing" is wrong, because "god said so" thus "injures union with god because god said so".
"God" has "killed" millions of people.
"God" is exempt from what he says.[/quote]
God said [i]thou [/i]shalt not kill (better translated as 'murder', but that's beside the point, right now). He didn't give that law to himself. He gave the laws to humans. Kind of like when parents tell their kids to be home at a certain time. God didn't say "killing is wrong". He told [i]people [/i]to not kill.
[quote] Moi: Your morality and the laws laid down for humans need not apply to God. [/quote] See, the laws were applied to humans. God is not human (yes, we are aware of Jesus. Jesus did not kill anyone). That the moral laws were laid down for man is clear. It's in my first response.

It was probably unfair to mix philosophical arguments with your 'bible God is evil' argument. Unfortunately, if you're using the Bible to prove God is evil, you lose--the premise of the Bible is that God made everything, gave rules of behavior to man and expects people to follow His will. Following God's will is good. This is where it becomes important to distinguish between murder and killing, which a properly translated Bible does. When God kills, He acts with perfect knowledge, acts according to His will and has the authority. Man owns nothing. He has "dominion", but man was given that dominion and it has conditions that are explained throughout the Bible.

From your perspective, God is evil. From your perspective, God doesn't exist. And you are extremely pissed at Him about this. You attempted to visit that upon us. I guess you get some kind of relief from that. Well, you hoped to get some kind of relief from that. Instead, you spent a few pages getting worked up and wearing out your exclamation point key on your keyboard. You're mad. I get it. You have read some intarwebs pages about laid back logical fallacies and the contradictions in the Bible. That one page has some cool little images to really drive home how evil the non-existent God you're obsessed with is.

I imagine you and your friends were chanting in a room one night around a Richard Dawkins book, googling "Christians stupid God evil dumb contradiction bible" and hooted like gibbons when that site came up. Maybe you did some kind of atheist dance. To prog rock, in all likelihood. Tool, I bet. Because the lyrics are so deep. Or maybe Lambchop. You know, ironically. Someone probably had a hat. Not a ballcap. A fedora, or something like it. There were beards on some of you. The beards were ironic, too.

The part I don't get is coming here. There are other sites, where you could have found the Catholic equivalent of you. Someone who would get mad, format text, use totally unimaginative and non-fun insults and storm out. Maybe you could have gotten b& (which is a kind of victory, if you don't use profanity or other crass methods). But you pick here, with me, who time and time again gets you chasing your tail and then points it out and then gives an analysis. You're not here to "awaken" anyone. You didn't come in to debate. Well, if you did, it quickly dissolved into a kind of intellectual petit mal episode.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']Do you believe the differences between God and man are irrelevant?[/quote]It's just irrelevant to this discussion, "god" supposedly made a rule and then god broke that rule.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']You chose an example that I did not choose. The parent would be only be committing a fallacy if that parent exempted himself in that killing from that rule. Saying speeding is wrong and then speeding isn't a logical fallacy.[/quote]So where does god explicitly and directly exempt himself from killing in the bible?[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']God said [i]thou [/i]shalt not kill (better translated as 'murder', but that's beside the point, right now). He didn't give that law to himself. He gave the laws to humans. Kind of like when parents tell their kids to be home at a certain time. God didn't say "killing is wrong". He told [i]people [/i]to not kill.[/quote]So god demands something of humans that he doesn't do himself, I think the word hypocrite comes to mind. "[i]Do as I say but not as I do.[/i]" Perfect sort of god for a man like yourself. Your total lack of charity and reason, but expectation of the same.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']See, the laws were applied to humans. God is not human (yes, we are aware of Jesus. Jesus did not kill anyone). That the moral laws were laid down for man is clear. It's in my first response.[/quote]But Jesus directly commands his followers to kill and technically, Peter kills on behalf of the church. Who is the church according to your theology? But again... if it was laid down for humans, why does god frequently command his people to kill? Why the contradiction? [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']It was probably unfair to mix philosophical arguments with your 'bible God is evil' argument. Unfortunately, if you're using the Bible to prove God is evil, you lose--the premise of the Bible is that God made everything, gave rules of behavior to man and expects people to follow His will. Following God's will is good. This is where it becomes important to distinguish between murder and killing, which a properly translated Bible does. When God kills, He acts with perfect knowledge, acts according to His will and has the authority. Man owns nothing. He has "dominion", but man was given that dominion and it has conditions that are explained throughout the Bible.[/quote]If you had mixed actual philosophy into this discussion, I would of found that more interesting. Which would be the ethical question of "divine command". You however have been in the realm of theology, hardly.

You are appealing to authority, just because "god" is "god" doesn't make him or his rules good. This is another informal logic fallacy. But the Bible as more than few commentators, including saints, are horrified by the senseless killing given to "god" and "his people". So your only response to that concern is "you lose". Intelligent discussion or just stopping discussion?[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']From your perspective, God is evil. From your perspective, God doesn't exist. And you are extremely pissed at Him about this. You attempted to visit that upon us. I guess you get some kind of relief from that. Well, you hoped to get some kind of relief from that. Instead, you spent a few pages getting worked up and wearing out your exclamation point key on your keyboard. You're mad. I get it. You have read some intarwebs pages about laid back logical fallacies and the contradictions in the Bible. That one page has some cool little images to really drive home how evil the non-existent God you're obsessed with is.[/quote]It would be cool if you didn't assume what I meant. But I understand it's the only way you can demonize me and personally attack me, rather than address the argument. I guess you totally pissed that god has killed millions of people.

I had a doctor of sociology tell me once that religious people have the same potential today to do what they did thousands of years ago. All you had to do was itch the right spot. You refuse to admit the senseless killing of millions of people, in some cases women and children who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is in anyway questionable... you in fact defend and praise it. It shows what hideous monsters your religious faith can transform someone into.

But I'm not mad, pissed, or anything else. I am disappointed but more amused. Because this offers for me endless evidence for my real claim, which is for post-theism. That religion has no place in the life of modern man, for it turns people to stupidity and anger. Your last resort is to tell me that Im hateful, angry, abusive, or whatever else you can throw in. It's disappoint to see a human being turned to such nonsense. But if you like, we can take this argument to voice, I doubt your calm, but I am. This is but a trivial argument. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']I imagine you and your friends were chanting in a room one night around a Richard Dawkins book, googling "Christians stupid God evil dumb contradiction bible" and hooted like gibbons when that site came up. Maybe you did some kind of atheist dance. To prog rock, in all likelihood. Tool, I bet. Because the lyrics are so deep. Or maybe Lambchop. You know, ironically. Someone probably had a hat. Not a ballcap. A fedora, or something like it. There were beards on some of you. The beards were ironic, too.[/quote]Honestly, I'm not a fan of Richard Dawkings when it comes to atheism, but again your just trying to demonize me rather than answer the questions of the topic. You must be really angry to just ramble on like that...

I never called "god evil", in fact the topic title is from Laudate_Dominum, but I do see a good case that god is a monster, regardless of the justification. You do realize that all you are doing is making up excuses for your god? Why can't your god make up his own excuses? But I don't hate god or your religion, I find discussing it interesting pending on who comes in, with you I find it amusing.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312217385' post='2279733']The part I don't get is coming here. There are other sites, where you could have found the Catholic equivalent of you. Someone who would get mad, format text, use totally unimaginative and non-fun insults and storm out. Maybe you could have gotten b& (which is a kind of victory, if you don't use profanity or other crass methods). But you pick here, with me, who time and time again gets you chasing your tail and then points it out and then gives an analysis. You're not here to "awaken" anyone. You didn't come in to debate. Well, if you did, it quickly dissolved into a kind of intellectual petit mal episode.[/quote]Winchester, I can assure you I have never seen you win a debate. But I have seen you be popular in a debate. It's not the same. But... there have been more than a few who have been affected... by your kinds of responses. Most people assume there is a reasonable and supportable defense, after reading topics like this, they realize there isn't. Only personal attacks and lies, the praising of a god that kills millions upon millions of humans, and demands that we kill more.

Honestly, I have seen this topic better debated. But coming from a Mr. Funny Guy... Claiming you are giving me good philosophy and a good psychological evaluation of me. It's like a class clown act and honestly... I love it. If you think you are doing your religion a service, the only ones who are going to agree with you are the ones who like you. So you have finished your clowning around, do you have any real responses to these valid and real concerns? No?

But don't let me stop you... the longer I can get you to do stunts like this. The better.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312221581' post='2279765']
It's just irrelevant to this discussion, "god" supposedly made a rule and then god broke that rule.So where does god explicitly and directly exempt himself from killing in the bible?So god demands something of humans that he doesn't do himself, I think the word hypocrite comes to mind. "[i]Do as I say but not as I do.[/i]" Perfect sort of god for a man like yourself. Your total lack of charity and reason, but expectation of the same.But Jesus directly commands his followers to kill and technically, Peter kills on behalf of the church. Who is the church according to your theology? But again... if it was laid down for humans, why does god frequently command his people to kill? Why the contradiction? If you had mixed actual philosophy into this discussion, I would of found that more interesting. Which would be the ethical question of "divine command". You however have been in the realm of theology, hardly.

You are appealing to authority, just because "god" is "god" doesn't make him or his rules good. This is another informal logic fallacy. But the Bible as more than few commentators, including saints, are horrified by the senseless killing given to "god" and "his people". So your only response to that concern is "you lose". Intelligent discussion or just stopping discussion?It would be cool if you didn't assume what I meant. But I understand it's the only way you can demonize me and personally attack me, rather than address the argument. I guess you totally pissed that god has killed millions of people.

I had a doctor of sociology tell me once that religious people have the same potential today to do what they did thousands of years ago. All you had to do was itch the right spot. You refuse to admit the senseless killing of millions of people, in some cases women and children who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is in anyway questionable... you in fact defend and praise it. It shows what hideous monsters your religious faith can transform someone into.

But I'm not mad, pissed, or anything else. I am disappointed but more amused. Because this offers for me endless evidence for my real claim, which is for post-theism. That religion has no place in the life of modern man, for it turns people to stupidity and anger. Your last resort is to tell me that Im hateful, angry, abusive, or whatever else you can throw in. It's disappoint to see a human being turned to such nonsense. But if you like, we can take this argument to voice, I doubt your calm, but I am. This is but a trivial argument. Honestly, I'm not a fan of Richard Dawkings when it comes to atheism, but again your just trying to demonize me rather than answer the questions of the topic. You must be really angry to just ramble on like that...

I never called "god evil", in fact the topic title is from Laudate_Dominum, but I do see a good case that god is a monster, regardless of the justification. You do realize that all you are doing is making up excuses for your god? Why can't your god make up his own excuses? But I don't hate god or your religion, I find discussing it interesting pending on who comes in, with you I find it amusing.Winchester, I can assure you I have never seen you win a debate. But I have seen you be popular in a debate. It's not the same. But... there have been more than a few who have been affected... by your kinds of responses. Most people assume there is a reasonable and supportable defense, after reading topics like this, they realize there isn't. Only personal attacks and lies, the praising of a god that kills millions upon millions of humans, and demands that we kill more.

Honestly, I have seen this topic better debated. But coming from a Mr. Funny Guy... Claiming you are giving me good philosophy and a good psychological evaluation of me. It's like a class clown act and honestly... I love it. If you think you are doing your religion a service, the only ones who are going to agree with you are the ones who like you. So you have finished your clowning around, do you have any real responses to these valid and real concerns? No?

But don't let me stop you... the longer I can get you to do stunts like this. The better.
[/quote]
So you concede to the fact that your hooting is, in fact, reminiscent of gibbons.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312222830' post='2279782']So you concede to the fact that your hooting is, in fact, reminiscent of gibbons.[/quote]You lose. Thank you for playing. I am sure your antics among the millions of deaths will somehow comfort believers looking for answers.

Though I was hoping for more demonizing and personal attacks... more anger and hate from you. Are you sure you don't have more?

[Winchester]

Don't open fire next time. Then you really can cry about being attacked.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312224031' post='2279801']Don't open fire next time. Then you really can cry about being attacked.[/quote]How am I playing victim? Never mind, I'm sure it makes more sense once you believe!

Regardless, I guess you have nothing more to contribute to your off-topic discussion.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Amppax]

Dawwww, aren't you two adorable?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312224138' post='2279804']
Dawwww, aren't you two adorable?
[/quote]
I am handsome, not adorable.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1312224138' post='2279804']Dawwww, aren't you two adorable?[/quote]

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312224163' post='2279805']
I am handsome, not adorable.
[/quote]

that's for the correction.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312224105' post='2279803']
How am I playing victim? Never mind, I'm sure it makes more sense once you believe!


[/quote]
I didn't say you were playing the victim. I said you were crying about being attacked, and in such a way that your claim of being attacked was invalid, since you started it. nanny nanny boo boo.

[quote]
Regardless, I guess you have nothing more to contribute to your off-topic discussion.[/quote]
Well, you have egg on your face now, don't you?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312224330' post='2279812']
I didn't say you were playing the victim. I said you were crying about being attacked, and in such a way that your claim of being attacked was invalid, since you started it. nanny nanny boo boo.[/quote]I'm not crying. But keep demonizing me. Keep it coming...[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312224330' post='2279812']Well, you have egg on your face now, don't you?[/quote]Now you're just being funny.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat