Is God A Moral Monster?

[stevil]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' timestamp='1311476965' post='2274661']
In short, the only way God could be a moral monster is if the records in Scripture were exhaustive and complete,[/quote]
The same argument could be made for knowledge of god being good.

the only way God could be good is if the records in Scripture were exhaustive and complete

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311477616' post='2274665']
The only way God can be a moral monster is if morality has an existence outside of Him. In which case, He would not be God.
[/quote]

Morality cannot exist without God, anyway. If God does not exist, morality is merely a subjective illusion produced in a single, meaningless species of a meaningless evolution on a meaningless rock spinning briefly within a meaningless universe. In other words, the claim that God is immoral seems self-refuting.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311477685' post='2274666']
The same argument could be made for knowledge of god being good.

the only way God could be good is if the records in Scripture were exhaustive and complete
[/quote]

No. God's goodness does not rely on the Bible. That God exists may be demonstrated without recourse to the Scriptures. That God is Good is simply a logical consequence of God existing; if God exists, God must be the Source and Standard of all goodness - that is, Goodness itself - or else not God at all.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' timestamp='1311478206' post='2274673']
Morality cannot exist without God, anyway. If God does not exist, morality is merely a subjective illusion produced in a single, meaningless species of a meaningless evolution on a meaningless rock spinning briefly within a meaningless universe. In other words, the claim that God is immoral seems self-refuting.
[/quote]
I said it more succinctly.

[stevil]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' timestamp='1311478422' post='2274674']
No. God's goodness does not rely on the Bible. That God exists may be demonstrated without recourse to the Scriptures. That God is Good is simply a logical consequence of God existing; if God exists, God must be the Source and Standard of all goodness - that is, Goodness itself - or else not God at all.
[/quote]
I guess I'm more refering to our ability to recognise if god is good or a monster. We don't have enough information either way. We don't even know if god exists. We don't even have a clear definition of what determines what a god is. There is no clear definition of the term.

[Winchester]

In order for the God of the Bible to be evil, He would have to be a liar. Else He is the creator and thus cannot be evil.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Winchester

[Guest]

So what if God kills. Look at your government. Its killed millions of babies and isn't slowing down. I'm comfortable with God killing on moral grounds. He is a loving Father and wants to protect His children. Big difference between a killer and a murderer too. I'd be honored if you called me a killer. Delivery Killer Boy.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Guest

[Papist]

No one knows why God does what He does.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1311373432' post='2274010']
I think there is a good discussion to be had here.
I have never read the bible so have only heard of bits of it.

But..

Stories about god setting a couple of she-bears onto a group of children for teasing a man about his bald head. How is this reasoned?
If a person did that in our society they would be scorned as a horrific monster and would be locked up for a very long time.

I understand that Christians take god as being perfect and all loving and hence come up with a reasoning which tries to align with that. God always gets the benefit of the doubt, and hence can do pretty much anything, including killing all the people, all the animals, all the plants of the entire world except two of each. Then this story is glorified and seen as a significant good that god has done.
[/quote]

I do think there is a good discussion here. But regretfully there isn't going to be one.

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1311384764' post='2274117']
I agree L_D's response is very strange. However, I don't know what you think, just what your document dump thinks, which is no way to really start a conversation. When you say "If sourcing verifiable facts is argumentative, then I am willing to concede that my post is argumentative. If it is anti-christian to have concerns about these sort of verses in the Bible, then I am willing to concede it is anti-christian." it makes me think you really aren't interested in a genuine conversation at all, but are just angry with the Church you once called home.

Your question (accusation) is almost as old as the Church itself (almost as old as 'why do bad things happen to good people?' and 'how can God let children die?') and is dealt with in the Catechism, writings of the Fathers, and in many contemporaries. The answer, by the way, has to do with the nature of God's relationship to man, but I think all of the scholars and other Catholics want to know that you want an answer before getting into a long debate.
[/quote]

Yes very strange.

But I am not angry at Christianity, but I am generally disappointed. But the problem isn't why bad things happen to good people, the question is why did God directly or indirectly cause the death of people?

For example in the book of numbers, God supposedly kills over ten thousand people for complaining about God killing their people.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311428549' post='2274287']
Since God would be The Good, it's impossible for God to be immoral. Your morality and the laws laid down for humans need not apply to God. This question was settled in ancient philosophy.
[/quote]

Philosophy, no. Theology, yes.

But can you demonstrate how "god", in particular your god, is "the good". This doesn't exclude god being a "moral monster". But why is god not bound by his own rules and truth?

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1311449263' post='2274431']
Mr.CatholicCat,

I didn't know you were an atheist now, but I suggest you read St. Paul's letter to the Romans, where he talks about the inscrutable mystery of God's will. But read the whole letter, because it's important to understand the whole letter in context. I read it recently and it is very profound for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

A big theme in the letter is Abraham as our model of faith. Recall that God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Abraham was going to do it in faith, but God stopped him at the last minute. Now in response to your question, "Is God a moral monster," I will only point out that what God did not require of Abraham, he carried out himself. God did not require Abraham to sacrifice his son, but God himself did send his only-begotten son to be sacrificed. We cannot even begin to try and understand the Old Testament unless the Cross of Christ is put at the center of the discussion.


Some people will read this and conclude that God is unjust and a "moral monster." But not me. Don't get me wrong, what St. Paul is saying here is not easy to take. But when I read this, I am completely humbled at the absolute irrelevance of my own will. That is the entire message of the Gospel: our relationship to God is an act of absolute abandonment, and this is what we call faith. Not only can we not will ourselves to heaven, but we cannot even will ourselves to being loved by God. We can only abandon ourselves to him, and in doing so we are following the example of Abraham, and the example of Christ, because nobody has ever abandoned themselves to God more than Christ.

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]
[/quote]

I am a skeptic, at the least. But it seems your answer is suspending critical thinking, this "abandonment" you mention. Is that the only way to believe in God? But while I find the admission that its a mystery refreshing, but it isn't an answer.

[quote name='Polsky215' timestamp='1311456376' post='2274479']
<br /><br /><br />

Morality in the Catholic perspective is simply being in union with God. But God doesnt need to be in union with Himself. We dont know what compensation He gave to those people He killed. God knows what He's doing. So there are two points to understand.
(1) The human rules of morality (e.g. do not kill) were given by God to help people follow the "main idea," that is love God (the greatest commandment). Thus God does not need to follow those human rules. Hes already in union with Himself and has no need.
(2) God is loving and He clearly thought that ending the lives of those people was more to their benefit or at least of no less cost to those people than letting them live.
[/quote]

What gain is there in ordering violence against women and children?

[quote name='Ziggamafu' timestamp='1311476965' post='2274661']
The Bible is not a complete record of history, but only records (without error) that history necessary to best convey the message of salvation. We may know that God exists (and God must logically be the source and standard of goodness), and there are sufficient grounds for our faith in Christ (and, by extension, the Church and the Bible). So when we come to troubling passages, it may well be that we simply do not have the extra information that would make God's action not only reasonable, but unarguably perfect. The Bible paints a picture of history; it does not convey every detail, nor does it convey its own words without the need for interpretation.

We may know God. We may know faith in His Son and His Church. We may not know all the answers to the questions the ancient Scriptures prompts, but we may certainly know enough to trust in the perfect, Eternal Act of an omnibenevolant God of mercy and grace, and in the ways in which that Act affects the myriad moments of our temporal, created world. My stance not only applies to the tragedies recorded in Scripture, but to those of our contemporary world as well. When we wrestle with tragedy and apparent injustice, we wrestle with God; and so it is in the very act of this wrestling that our souls, consciously or not, advert to a God who is very much there, a Source and Standard of Goodness by which our discomforts are vindicated in the first place.

In short, the only way God could be a moral monster is if the records in Scripture were exhaustive and complete, and if (in that case) the God depicted turned out to be no God at all. It seems as though there are more than a few presuppositions involved in using the Bible against the God depicted within its pages.

God bless and keep you.
[/quote]

Divine command is not a logical or supportable ethical model. But your argument that we don't have the entire story fascinates me, it's an original approach. I will have to think about it.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311477616' post='2274665']
The only way God can be a moral monster is if morality has an existence outside of Him. In which case, He would not be God.
[/quote]

Circular argument and unfalsifiable.
[quote name='Ziggamafu' timestamp='1311478206' post='2274673']
Morality cannot exist without God, anyway. If God does not exist, morality is merely a subjective illusion produced in a single, meaningless species of a meaningless evolution on a meaningless rock spinning briefly within a meaningless universe. In other words, the claim that God is immoral seems self-refuting.
[/quote]

Disagreed. God arbitrarily determining holy or evil, good or bad, right or wrong, true or false is not objective... it is subjective. If one does not believe in god, the case for divine command fails. Meaning that it is dependent on faith, making it subjective and arbitrary... Also largely unsupportable.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' timestamp='1311478422' post='2274674']
No. God's goodness does not rely on the Bible. That God exists may be demonstrated without recourse to the Scriptures. That God is Good is simply a logical consequence of God existing; if God exists, God must be the Source and Standard of all goodness - that is, Goodness itself - or else not God at all.
[/quote]

Respectfully disagreed. Unless you can demonstrate how.
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311485459' post='2274750']
In order for the God of the Bible to be evil, He would have to be a liar. Else He is the creator and thus cannot be evil.
[/quote]

[b][url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/god_lie.html"]Does God lie?[/url][/b]

You argued previously that it was impossible for god to be evil, because god is the good. Now you seem to be implying that it is possible to qualify god as evil? But why can the creator not be evil or malevolent? Why can't the bible be faulty?

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1311499402' post='2274797']

So what if God kills. Look at your government. Its killed millions of babies and isn't slowing down. I'm comfortable with God killing on moral grounds. He is a loving Father and wants to protect His children. Big difference between a killer and a murderer too. I'd be honored if you called me a killer. Delivery Killer Boy.

[/quote]

Will do.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1311527286' post='2274988']

No one knows why God does what He does.

[/quote]

Papist I like your response, I think you try to be as honest. I truly respect that a lot.

If I were to play devil's advocate for this case, I would argue that these these horrifying instances of violence is less than 10% of the Bible, are chiefly of the Old Testament, and are not central to the Catholic faith. Also that there is reason to believe "god" may have been treating his creatures as they treated each other, changing the moral standard from divine to human. Which is supportable since the Bible spends a lot of time manfesting "god" in a way that is understandable and human,and there are many more instances of generosity and benevolence.

The counter-argument would be that it doesn't moot the violence or god's supposed involvement. That because it is apart of the religious text of Catholicism it is sill relevant to Catholic theology. But this apologetic defense could also mean that the human writers were merely writing god to be a better manifestation of themselves. That it distracts from the central point, "god" directly or indirectly commanded the death of millions. By human standards of any time period, this would be a monster, regardless of reason.

I found the discussion interesting and it was the reason I posted it in the theology board, for a more formulated reply. Regretfully... I haven't seen that. I never do... It's apart of why I find Catholicsm disappointing...

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312035629' post='2278470']


You argued previously that it was impossible for god to be evil, because god is the good. Now you seem to be implying that it is possible to qualify god as evil? But why can the creator not be evil or malevolent? Why can't the bible be faulty?
[/quote]
The Creator cannot be evil because nothing exists outside of Him. Morality is His creation, and He is not subordinated to it.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1311485459' post='2274750']In order for the God of the Bible to be evil, He would have to be a liar. Else He is the creator and thus cannot be evil.
[/quote][quote][url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1kg/22.html#23"]1 Kings 22:23[/url]
Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/18.html#22"]2 Chronicles 18:22[/url]
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/4.html#10"]Jeremiah 4:10[/url]
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/20.html#7"]Jeremiah 20:7[/url]
O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ezek/14.html#9"]Ezekiel 14:9[/url]
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2th/2.html#11"]2 Thessalonians 2:11[/url]
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. [/quote][quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312036551' post='2278478']
The Creator cannot be evil because nothing exists outside of Him. Morality is His creation, and He is not subordinated to it.[/quote]So which is it? Can "god" be evil or not? If your qualification is true, then the examples from [b]"[url="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/god_lie.html"]Does God lie?[/url]"[/b] are completely relevant.

Unless you retract the first claim, this seems to be double speak.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

An action evil for a creature would still not be evil for a Creator. A Creator would not be subject to the moral order He created. I'm not using Christian apologetics, here. I already explained to you the context of my statement. You Bible stuff doesn't apply. I have not made any arguments about either the Christian or Jewish God.

But regarding the work you're citing, have you spoken with any rabbis to understand the context of the Jewish literature you're reading? I mean, it was written by Jews and they might know a bit about it.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312040087' post='2278495']An action evil for a creature would still not be evil for a Creator. A Creator would not be subject to the moral order He created. I'm not using Christian apologetics, here.[/quote]But WHY is an evil action for a creator NOT evil? You are making a contradictory, circular, and vague argument. You might as well reply with, "[i]Because God said so.[/i]"[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312040087' post='2278495']I already explained to you the context of my statement. You Bible stuff doesn't apply. I have not made any arguments about either the Christian or Jewish God.[/quote]You didn't explain, you directly contradicted it...

You wrote, "[b][u]In order for the God of the Bible to be evil[/u], He would have to be a liar.[/b]" Which is why I posted the verses about the "god of the bible" being deceptive. Then you wrote, "[b]The Creator [u]cannot be evil[/u] because nothing exists outside of Him.[/b]" So I will assume you are retracting the previous statement. Which implies that even if "the god of the bible" is deceptive or a liar, it doesn't matter.

But out of curiosity, is the god of the bible not the god of Christianity?[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312040087' post='2278495']But regarding the work you're citing, have you spoken with any rabbis to understand the context of the Jewish literature you're reading? I mean, it was written by Jews and they might know a bit about it.[/quote]So because you don't have an answer, you tell me to look elsewhere? Right...

Should I also trust the "rabbis" on 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Because I'm sure they would tell me that its a Christian scripture? I love Catholics, telling me to go to Jews for questions about Christianity! Next I will ask Baptists about the Rosary!

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312044675' post='2278524']
But WHY is an evil action for a creator NOT evil? You are making a contradictory, circular, and vague argument. You might as well reply with, "[i]Because God said so.[/i]"[/quote]
You summed up the argument perfectly.

[quote]You didn't explain, you directly contradicted it...

You wrote, "[b][u]In order for the God of the Bible to be evil[/u], He would have to be a liar.[/b]" Which is why I posted the verses about the "god of the bible" being deceptive. Then you wrote, "[b]The Creator [u]cannot be evil[/u] because nothing exists outside of Him.[/b]" So I will assume you are retracting the previous statement. Which implies that even if "the god of the bible" is deceptive or a liar, it doesn't matter.[/quote]
I was vague. He would have to be lying about being the Creator. In the Christian scheme, evil is that which is against the Will of God. If He decides to deceive, that's in accord with his Will. Thus, according to Christians, it's good.

[quote]But out of curiosity, is the god of the bible not the god of Christianity?So because you don't have an answer, you tell me to look elsewhere? Right...[/quote]
The Christians seem to think He is.

[quote]Should I also trust the "rabbis" on 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Because I'm sure they would tell me that its a Christian scripture? I love Catholics, telling me to go to Jews for questions about Christianity! Next I will ask Baptists about the Rosary!
[/quote]
Sorry. I didn't pay too much attention to your proof-texts. Yeah, go to a Catholic priest for any NT stuff. Do I really need to micromanage you like that?




Are you proposing that morality exists outside of God?

Edited July 30, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']You summed up the argument perfectly.[/quote]So you admit you are making an appeal to special pleading and authority. You lost.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']I was vague. He would have to be lying about being the Creator. In the Christian scheme, evil is that which is against the Will of God. If He decides to deceive, that's in accord with his Will. Thus, according to Christians, it's good.[/quote]You were not vague. I accept your retraction, that somehow "god" lying would make him evil. But this means there is no consistency or objectivity to your morality, it is completely arbitrary and illogical. Also possibly that you admit your god is deceptive?

I hope you realize that morals would exist without Christians? Christians don't somehow own morality. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']The Christians seem to think He is.[/quote]So another retraction, you were making an argument about the Christian god. Thank you![quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']Sorry. I didn't pay too much attention to your proof-texts. Yeah, go to a Catholic priest for any NT stuff. Do I really need to micromanage you like that?[/quote]No... But I would like to imagine you actually READ what is written. Maybe I'm wrong? I wouldn't want someone who doesn't read managing my life... or anything for that matter.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312047828' post='2278539']Are you proposing that morality exists outside of God?[/quote]A piece of Christian morality, as directed by Jesus, "[color=#ff0000]But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.[/color]" If you were a moral person, you would be following your god's morals!

But yes... I propose that morality is not dependent on a god, that "divine command" model of ethics is insufficient, contradictory, and unverifiable. Ultimately it is people who decide what morality is, even if it is from a supposed "god".

Edited July 30, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312048969' post='2278546']
So you admit you are making an appeal to special pleading and authority. You lost.[/quote]
I'm restating a simple philosophical fact. You create the game, you create the rules. Unless morality has an existence of itself, without God, then it is subject to Him, not He to it.

[quote]I accept your retraction, that somehow "god" lying would make him evil. But this means there is no consistency or objectivity to your morality, it is completely arbitrary and illogical. Also possibly that you admit your god is deceptive?[/quote]
No. In order for God to be evil, He would have to not be the Creator. He has claimed to be the Creator. If [i]that [/i]were a lie, it would be possible for the God in the Bible to be evil. If morality existed prior to God, he might have created most of the universe, but not those moral laws which pre-existed Him. I take from the whole of the Bible that God lays claim to the creation of the moral order. Is there a passage where He claims otherwise.

[quote]I hope you realize that morals would exist without Christians? Christians don't somehow own morality. So another retraction, you were making an argument about the Christian god. Thank you!No... But I would like to imagine you actually READ what is written. Maybe I'm wrong? I wouldn't want someone who doesn't read managing my life... or anything for that matter.A piece of Christian morality, as directed by Jesus, "[color=#ff0000]But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me.[/color]" If you were a moral person, you would be following your god's morals!

But yes... I propose that morality is not dependent on a god, that "divine command" model of ethics is insufficient, contradictory, and unverifiable. Ultimately it is people who decide what morality is, even if it is from a supposed "god".
[/quote]
So morality is your really real, eternal being. It exists independent of perception. In your order, "God" would be subject to morality and morality would not be a creature.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']I'm restating a simple [s]philosophical fact[/s] theological belief.[/quote]Fixed.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']You create the game, you create the rules. Unless morality has an existence of itself, without God, then it is subject to Him, not He to it.[/quote]So you are fine with a subjective, arbitrary, contradictory, and illogical model of ethics? What would happen if you didn't believe in god? Would you become a monster yourself? If so, please keep your faith.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']No. In order for God to be evil, He would have to not be the Creator. He has claimed to be the Creator. If [i]that [/i]were a lie, it would be possible for the God in the Bible to be evil. If morality existed prior to God, he might have created most of the universe, but not those moral laws which pre-existed Him. I take from the whole of the Bible that God lays claim to the creation of the moral order. Is there a passage where He claims otherwise.[/quote]You can't prove the existence of your god or that it created anything. Even if there was a god, you can't prove that it is your god. What if the Islamic god is true? Would that mean that they are morally justified? According to you, yes.


[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312049794' post='2278550']So morality is your really real, eternal being. It exists independent of perception. In your order, "God" would be subject to morality and morality would not be a creature.[/quote]Morals are just rules about behavior. It's not some kind of special external being, that exists independent of perception.

In reality, there is no god. But I'm sure if there was, he would be glad to have a friend like you to defend him from skepticism or criticism about those millions of people he had killed. But not so pleased that you aren't killing his enemies as he commanded you in Luke 19:27!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1312050611' post='2278557']
Fixed.[/quote]
Plato is not theology. The philosopher's god is not really theology.

[quote]So you are fine with a subjective, arbitrary, contradictory, and illogical model of ethics? What would happen if you didn't believe in god? Would you become a monster yourself? If so, please keep your faith.You can't prove the existence of your god or that it created anything. Even if there was a god, you can't prove that it is your god. What if the Islamic god is true? Would that mean that they are morally justified? According to you, yes.[/quote]
The Good would also not be arbitrary. If there are not actual Forms, then everything is shadow on the wall. "Monster" would have no real meaning. I could define anyone as a monster, and it would have as much meaning as any other definition for any other set of reasons. The arbitrary can only exist if there is an eternal truth. And yeah, it would mean that. Was I supposed to freak out and take the illogical position that the creature is above the Creator?

In this argument, I have not attempted to prove the existence of any God, I have merely outlined for you how your belief that God is evil would be possible, assuming He existed and is the God of the Bible.

[quote]Morals are just rules about behavior. It's not some kind of special external being, that exists independent of perception.

In reality, there is no god. But I'm sure if there was, he would be glad to have a friend like you to defend him from skepticism or criticism about those millions of people he had killed. But not so pleased that you aren't killing his enemies as he commanded you in Luke 19:27!
[/quote]
Did you buy a bunch of exclamation points on sale? I've heard they last forever, like Twinkies.

So what are you arguing is the origin of morality?

Edited July 30, 2011 by Winchester

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']Plato is not theology. The philosopher's god is not really theology.[/quote]I doubt Plato would agree with you. But you are asserting theological beliefs so far, unless you can demonstrate otherwise. Why are you so resistant to verifying your claims? Do you think claiming something makes it true?[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']The Good would also not be arbitrary. If there are not actual Forms, then everything is shadow on the wall. "Monster" would have no real meaning. I could define anyone as a monster, and it would have as much meaning as any other definition for any other set of reasons. The arbitrary can only exist if there is an eternal truth.[/quote]The answer to that is, YES. You claim god exists and anything you claim god says is moral. Truth![quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']Did you buy a bunch of exclamation points on sale? I've heard they last forever, like Twinkies.[/quote]Are you changing your arguments, ignoring questions, not refuting arguments, and not supporting your claims. Yes, yes you are.[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1312051005' post='2278563']So what are you arguing is the origin of morality?[/quote]Not Christianity, since it existed before Christians came around. But why let history get in the way of your beliefs?

Since this topic is not about the origin of morals, it is about the horrifying violence and killing found in the Bible, commanded and conducted by god. However since you are claiming that "divine command" somehow works, thus god is somehow exempt from his no killing and charity commands... also those who obeyed god's call for death and violence. This is moral to you. I suppose I can't change your mind about it.

So will you concede that Muslims are moral people for obeying their god's command to kill infidels? Yes?