Is God A Moral Monster?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote] Certainly not a symbollic killing of something. [/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'symbolic killing'. Jesus took our sins upon Himself and was literally killed - not symbolicly killed. He suffered as any human being would suffer from being tortured and crucified. I don't think we should write His sacrifice off as a 'symbolic killing' - I think that demeans His passion and death.

[stevil]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317201401' post='2311559']


God tried it your way for how long? Was it about 4000 years or so, teaching the Israelites and asking them to follow His commandments - they couldn't even keep the most important one - have no other God before you!

He obviously felt that a little 'tough love' was required.

But we come back to the main point, which is that mankind cannot comprehend the mind of God.... or His infinite goodness.
[/quote]
Well, I can certainly understand why the point of forgiveness and good bahaviour is lost when one considers only the old testament.
The ten commandments:[list]
[*]Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[*]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [i]of any thing[/i] that [i]is[/i] in heaven above, or that [i]is[/i] in the earth beneath, or that [i]is[/i] in the water under the earth
[*]Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God [i]am[/i] a jealous God...
[*]Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold [i]him[/i] guiltless that taketh his name in vain
[*]Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee
[/list]

These are only some of them (there seems to be a few versions, I am not sure which ones Catholics adhere to) but how do any of these speak of forgiveness and behaving well to one another? If there must only be ten then these ones are a waste if the goal is to get people behaving well. These are simply for self promotion.

I still don't understand how god coming to earth and killing himself only to go back into heaven, atones for our sins? What's so exciting about death? Especially if he ended up back where he started.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317203024' post='2311561']
Well, I can certainly understand why the point of forgiveness and good bahaviour is lost when one considers only the old testament.
The ten commandments:[list]
[*]Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[*]Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [i]of any thing[/i] that [i]is[/i] in heaven above, or that [i]is[/i] in the earth beneath, or that [i]is[/i] in the water under the earth
[*]Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God [i]am[/i] a jealous God...
[*]Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold [i]him[/i] guiltless that taketh his name in vain
[*]Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee
[/list]
These are only some of them (there seems to be a few versions, I am not sure which ones Catholics adhere to) but how do any of these speak of forgiveness and behaving well to one another? If there must only be ten then these ones are a waste if the goal is to get people behaving well. These are simply for self promotion.

I still don't understand how god coming to earth and killing himself only to go back into heaven, atones for our sins? What's so exciting about death? Especially if he ended up back where he started.
[/quote]


stevil - you change topics in mid-stream and add new questions to the mix! So I am going to ignore the whole 10 commandments are a waste theme you started because that wasn't what we were talking about. I said that since the Israelites couldn't keep even the most important one of the commandments, which would have helped them to keep all the others, then they had no way to be reconciled to God.

The second question which is about WHY Jesus came to earth as a man to atone for our sins seems to be another way of asking why God chose to do it this way so perhaps it is a bit more in line with what we were discussing.

The answer is, I don't know. It was certainly an amazing thing for God to do - to choose a human woman to give birth to His Son, who is also one with Him. In my limited comprehension, I can see that Jesus was to serve as an example for us - of how to be human beings as God wants us to be - and as well as serving as an example, Jesus also took our sins upon Himself, so that He could heal the relationship between man and God. These sins were so great over all time that the only way to completely atone for them was for God to offer Himself as payment for them. The way that He chose to do so demonstrates to us what it is to be truly human and to love - Jesus even said this Himself at the Last Supper - when he said that no greater love hath man than that he lay down his life for another.

If it had ended with His death, there wouldn't really be much point perhaps because we wouldn't know that there is another life waiting for us. His resurrection was the demonstration that God and man have been reconciled and that we are invited to be with Him again eternally in heaven. The whole thing is perfect - only God could have come up with such a plan!! A perfect plan!

[stevil]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317203788' post='2311565']
stevil - you change topics in mid-stream and add new questions to the mix! So I am going to ignore the whole 10 commandments are a waste theme you started
[/quote]
You brought up the ten commandments. I was responding to that.

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317203788' post='2311565']
The whole thing is perfect - only God could have come up with such a plan!! A perfect plan!
[/quote]
Perfect for you, nonsensical to me. Sorry, but I don't like the idea of blood sacrifice and struggle to see it as a sacrifice if he goes back to heaven. It's just too symbollic for me, an all perfect, powerful god would have no requirement of blood sacrifice.
In conjures visions to me of the tribal people sacrificing the woman to King Kong, just shows (to me) a lack of understanding and a superstitious belief that is unfounded.

As people, we ourselves must be held accountable for our own actions, the message that someone else (Jesus) can take on the responsibilities of our actions and be punished in our stead, makes no sense. If my wife goes on a murderous rampage and gets sentenced to death, can I offer myself in her place, so that she is absolved and can live on? No. Society would not allow it, nor accept that my sacrifice has attoned her.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317204505' post='2311568']
You brought up the ten commandments. I was responding to that.


Perfect for you, nonsensical to me. Sorry, but I don't like the idea of blood sacrifice and struggle to see it as a sacrifice if he goes back to heaven. It's just too symbollic for me, an all perfect, powerful god would have no requirement of blood sacrifice.
In conjures visions to me of the tribal people sacrificing the woman to King Kong, just shows (to me) a lack of understanding and a superstitious belief that is unfounded.

As people, we ourselves must be held accountable for our own actions, the message that someone else (Jesus) can take on the responsibilities of our actions and be punished in our stead, makes no sense. If my wife goes on a murderous rampage and gets sentenced to death, can I offer myself in her place, so that she is absolved and can live on? No. Society would not allow it, nor accept that my sacrifice has attoned her.
[/quote]


Well, I can't see a meeting of the minds here since we are looking at the glass half full and half empty I think. But I will try to answer what I think I can.

There are analogies for people accepting responsibility for other people. The one that comes to mind first is the parent/child one. If my small child breaks a neighbour's window, I have to pay for it. She is responsible and I will certainly discipline her but I have to fork out the money to replace the window. Then I decide what consequences to place on the child. God does this to us. Jesus paid for the window to show us that we are still loved but we also have consequences for our sins both in this temporal world (confession, penance etc) and in the world to come (purgatory). God knows that we are like children, responsible for our own actions, but not fully competent to pay for them all, especially as manking has been sinning for an awful long time!

Anyway, that is just one way I see it.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317204505' post='2311568']

In conjures visions to me of the tribal people sacrificing the woman to King Kong, just shows (to me) a lack of understanding and a superstitious belief that is unfounded.

As people, we ourselves must be held accountable for our own actions, the message that someone else (Jesus) can take on the responsibilities of our actions and be punished in our stead, makes no sense. If my wife goes on a murderous rampage and gets sentenced to death, can I offer myself in her place, so that she is absolved and can live on? No. Society would not allow it, nor accept that my sacrifice has attoned her.
[/quote]
You're missing the main message. How would you feel if you were lying in a bed in severe pain slowly dying from cancer and you knew that the guy who had made lots of promises had skipped out of town before being arrested. To me and many others we believe that God came to earth as a man and suffered the most horrible of deaths as a demonstration of his love for us. It gives us the message that suffering and death has a purpose for which we cannot see. If there were another way wouldn't God have used it rather than suffering himself? During times when I have suffered intensely I think about how Jesus suffered and how other people suffer and so I embrace my suffering with them in the cross of Jesus and this attitude helps me endure.
It was also necessary for him to have a very public death before he could demonstrate the resurrection to us. You are so hard of heart you won't believe unless he proves it and he did as witnessed by many. Yet you still don't believe. What else there is in the way of how his death saves us is a mystery, but to enable our free choice to love God and accept him requires a certain amount of faith.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317203024' post='2311561']
I am not sure which ones Catholics adhere to)
[/quote]
[size="-2"][color="#FF0000"]Mt 22:36[/color][/size] “[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself[b]. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”[/b]

[Aya Sophia]

Have only read the most recent page of this thread and have no abilities in the area of apologetics and logical argument so am pretty much just poking my nose in here to say: how lovely it is that stevil is here - I think it speaks highly of him that, as an agnostic/atheist, he is here instead of (or in addition to) being in a forum for agnositcs and/or atheists where, in theory at least, he would find only affirmation of his unbelief. He is here where conversations will necessarily involve him in a lot of prodding and twisting and pokes in the eye. Perhaps stevil's inspiration to come here was from the Holy Spirit - perhaps it is essentially God who is prodding him into making the biggest discovery of his life.

I was raised a Catholic but was not a believer until age 26 when I had an entirely supernatural conversion experience which caused me suddenly to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that this man Jesus of Nazareth was God, that the "salvation" He was offering He was offering to me, and that this salvation was not something but Somone - it was Himself. I had not used my intellect to get myself to a place where I had finally worked these things out enough so that they made sense to my rational mind. Instead, faith had come, as it always does, as a gift. It comes through grace and remains with us through our response to grace.

An image of before and after conversion: before conversion, before receiving the gift of faith, a person walks around the outside of a church building, a very old building, apparently solid but needing repairs, cracks in the plaster, moss and mold growing all over, paint peeling, etc. Inspecting the building like this from the outside, bit by bit, it is rather offputting. A person wonders why on earth anyone would ever want to go inside. Conversion, the gift of faith, opens the doors of this church to the person, revealing immeasurable treasure inside: ineffable truth, warmth of life and light, glory and splendor and joy. A person enters in, drawn by the weight of truth and the fire of love. Tasting now the inner life, the true life of the Church, he wishes nothing else but to remain and to dwell there always.

Prayers for illumination for stevil and all those in the phorum for whom the matter of faith is obscure but of interest and importance. Prayers that faith may become less an object of debate and more a firey dart aimed at the hearts of the debaters.

Cheers . . . carry on!

[Aya Sophia]

Actually, I guess I shouldn't be praying that faith "become less an object of debate" - this is the DEBATE TABLE, after all!!! My bad ...

[stevil]

[quote name='Aya Sophia' timestamp='1317260548' post='2312050']
Prayers for illumination for stevil and all those in the phorum for whom the matter of faith is obscure but of interest and importance.[/quote]
Hello Aya

If you respect my wishes then please don't pray for me. This would be somewhat selfish of you to pray for me to change into something I have no desire for.
I would much rather you pray for yourself to be able to see the good in other people like me (despite their position on religion), please accept me for who I am rather than pray for me to change.

If this is too hard to pray for then please instead of praying for me, use this time to either pray for world peace, end to world famine, or instead of praying, then do an unexpected good deed for someone.

Or you could ignore all of this post, its up to you.

I thank you for your intent and don't mean to be rude to you, so please don't read this post negatively.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317280775' post='2312128']
Hello Aya

If you respect my wishes then please don't pray for me. This would be somewhat selfish of you to pray for me to change into something I have no desire for.

[/quote]
It is not selfish to pray for someone even if they don't wish it. If a person is drowning and you throw them a rope, is that selfish even if they don't want it? Aya's prayer will have no effect if you reject it, just as the rope is useless if the person does not take it. Prayers are also unbounded we can pray for all those things you ask as well as you.
I doubt anyone would see you as rude. I just feel a little sad for you.

[Aya Sophia]

Stevil, my beloved brother is an atheist (he was agnostic for a few years and now is back to being atheist) - I have always prayed for him in the matter of faith and always will. My love for him impels me to do so. Peace to you in your heart . . . ~AS

[stevil]

So neither myself nor your brother can get acceptance from you? Not as we are, as dare I say it "Atheists"

[Aya Sophia]

I accept you and certainly accept my brother (love him to pieces - unique creature of God). Only, am saddened by the constraints placed on his joy and hope and trust because of his lack of belief.

[organwerke]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1317280775' post='2312128']
Hello Aya

If you respect my wishes then please don't pray for me. This would be somewhat selfish of you to pray for me to change into something I have no desire for.

[/quote]

Stevil I can't understand which kind of disturb Aya Sophia gives to you if in her heart during her prayer with God she prays for you, I honestly think you are the selfish person, not her.
Once there was a person who told me he was in love with me, I told him I was not in interested in him, I said this roughly, because I was angry and annoyed that he liked me and I didn't want he had these feelings for me, well he said that he respected my will and didn't want to stress me anymore, but he also said that I could not be angry with him from having these good feelings and wishes in his heart if he liked me and his feelings were profound and genuine.
Well I think he was right: we can ask to be respected in our will and decisions and we cannot be forced to do something (having a relationship, a conversion) but we cannot ask a person not to have some feelings or prayers or wishes in their hearts because this would be a violation of their free will and of their soul too.

sorry I edited because I did a mistake and posted it twice

Edited September 29, 2011 by organwerke