Is It A Sin If...

[crusader1234]

If conflict diamonds were the only things available, I wouldnt buy any diamonds. I pray for your soul, because when you meet St. Peter I hope he is as interested in diamonds as all you people tend to be. For some reason I don't think He will buy into the thought that pleasing your girlfriends need for BLING is a worthy cause for slavery and poverty.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 29 2004, 11:36 PM'] Amen Jason.

Sigga, don't you think that we should try now, more than ever, to change our ways? The US was built on slavery (i'm from Canada) and your using the fact that you once had slavery as an excuse to continue to promote it? This seems like a questionable thought process to me. Excuses are never good, especially when you are saying 'Well we did this back then so ther'es no point in changing!' [/quote]
The U.S. is built on rules that the strong survive and the wise excell, the rest fall as they may to stabilize the rest of our framework. This ain't Canada, but I'm all about moral and ethical reforms if that is what you mean. I believe it can change, but not that much sadly if Americans still want to maintain the American/Western way of life. Note this is why the World hates America. Before finalizing your statement on illegal diamonds, check out Zales and Adlers, and their records in South Africa.

[HomeTeamFamily]

hey now, i never said that i approve of the human rights abuses, please dont make assumptions on my character......i was merely suggesting some thoughts for discussion

since you seem to be a crusader for human rights.....what have you done recently to help the situation....sent food over there? gave money?

[crusader1234]

I volunteer, I put money in those feed the children tins, I am a member of my school's amnesty international chapter, and as soon as I get a better job want to sponsor a kid and I'll most likely go do missionary work with MCC. Thanks for asking. I hope you start doing something too.

If you dont want to violate human rights, why dont you think that conflict diamonds are wrong?

M.SIGGA, regardless of your country's standards, dont you have personal moral standards? Personal faith standards? How can you be Christian and still say that conflict diamonds arent a sin. I get that your country isnt exactly righteous when it comes to human rights outside of itself, but does that make it ok for you to go along? Yeah it is sad that they arent righteous. so DO something!

[HomeTeamFamily]

[quote]I hope you start doing something too.[/quote]

thanks for judging

but before this gets bumped to the back alley.......

i think that if you knew full well that your purchase was going to a company that openly had human rights abuses (conflict diamonds for the purpose of discussion) then it could be considered sinful.....mortal even

however, if you did not know that the company supported human rights abuses, again using the diamonds as our example, then yes it would still be sinful but not mortal.....i think that everyone has sins that they commit that they dont realize they commit and that will come out in purgatory

hope this clears some confusion up

ok another situation.....there is a shirt that is 2 dollars that would go to a company that supports abuses.....there also a shirt that sells for 20 dollars but the money does not support abuses......it is justified to spend the extra money and suggest vanity than to give the 2 dollars???

[Livin_the_MASS]

This is the way I feel.

God is Mercy and Love.

We are to love even or enemies pray for them, go the extra mile when we are PUSHED too.

I'm not big on judging so the thing to do is pray! I agree this is a problem, like instead of wasting money to go to mars and look at some red rocks could feed alot of people

But God allows things to happen, I struggle with this myself, I'm not perfect, I'm a sinner, my job is to pray for salvation of souls. Some people don't know better and if they do know better I still pray! For as a Catholic Christian this is our duty!

"Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." Jesus gave us a big job to do, but thats why He also said "apart from Me you can do nothing." We need Him were He is Truly Present in The Holy Eucharist, so we can show that divine love to others.

Pray for everyone no matter who, at all times, for the salvation of their soul and the salvation of the whole world.

Pray the Holy Rosary IT'S POWERFUL.
I shall pray for you my brothers, please do the same for me!
God Bless
Jason

[M.SIGGA]

[quote]As for coal miners, I am not sorry for them.  I will NOT be sorry for them, until they are making 25 cents an hour.  Getting beaten, etc.  Sure, it is not a desireable job, but it sure beats starving to death in Ethiopia.[/quote]
What about miners who are thrust into the situation because of other social injustices being inflicted upon them such trying to afford family health care, tuition for their children to keep them out of public schools, to pay debt so they are not homeless, etc... It's not as clean-cut as you are making it and who is the person to judge what suffering really is other than God? It's totally different for everyone in every situation because everyone is different and is effected by different "isms" making human life a living hell.

[quote]What sort of attitude is it to say that we should not sacrifice our lifestyle so that human rights can be upheld.  What would Jesus have to say?  Probably he would be disappointed.  The Bible is filled with him telling us to be generous of ourselves both mentally, spiritually, and financially.[/quote]
Jesus asks so much more. The Apostles told the first Christians to literally sell EVERYTHING and "Come Follow" and the one who lied was struck dead. It's that serious... and you have to understand that people are at different levels of poverty and dispair depending on their personal situation. Socialism (like in Europe and Canada) tries very hard to uphold what you are talking about, but the gaps in Socialism, such as less than spectacular specializations in some medicine and technology, leads them to funding the "Capitalist Machine" in America which they despise so much. Generalizations are really harsh and every situation needs to be taken into consideration individually. Peace.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Keep it civil guys... play nice, this is debate/discussion not boxing.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 30 2004, 12:01 AM'] M.SIGGA, regardless of your country's standards, dont you have personal moral standards?  Personal faith standards?  How can you be Christian and still say that conflict diamonds arent a sin.  I get that your country isnt exactly righteous when it comes to human rights outside of itself, but does that make it ok for you to go along?  Yeah it is sad that they arent righteous.  so DO something! [/quote]
Dude why are you jumping on me personally? I am an American, you are not, and I was just being informative for someone who is not familiar with how stuff is done down here. I've never alluded to personal convictions, other than every situation should be judged individually.

I'm not going to broadcast Good Works, but if you are interested, I am a Student Volunteer Coordinator at my Parish, and please feel free to Message me anytime if you want some ideas or want any info. God Bless

Edited April 30, 2004 by M.SIGGA

[photosynthesis]

isn't depriving workers of their just wages one of the "sins that cry out to heaven for justice?"

[Jake Huether]

I bought my wife a diamond engagement rign. The last thing on my mind was who was digging them out.

Although in retrospect had I known, I might have looked elsewhere for diamonds that came from a "good" company.

How are we to know if the diamond is a "conflict" diamond?


Anyway. Yeah. It is pretty hard to pin the sin on the consumer. We take a part in being responsible, sure. But it is these companies who are putting us in the possition.

I wouldn't think that in normal circumstances buying a diamond is a sin. It objectivly isn't, and so we can't judge whether one has sinned or not.

Forcing hard labor on maltreated "slave" workers is objectively a sin.

Buying a diamond is not.

[CreepyCrawler]

I think before you can blame consumers for their choices, they need to be aware. Maybe an awareness campaign would be the best thing that people who know what's going on could do because unless people actually know what you're talking about, they'll just think you're some raving hippie lunatic. (I do agree with most of what you're saying, though, crusader).

******************************

I thought this article would be appropriate. It's an editorial from the NY Times. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but it gives an interesting perspective on child labor/sweatshops, etc.



Op-Ed Columnist: Put Your Money Where Their Mouths Are

April 3, 2004
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF


BISKÉ, Chad - With Democrats on the warpath over trade,
there's pressure for tougher international labor standards
that would try to put Abakr Adoud out of work.

Abakr lives with his family in the desert near this oasis
in eastern Chad. He has never been to school and roams the
desert all day with his brothers, searching for sticks that
can be made into doors for mud huts. He is 10 years old.

It's appalling that Abakr, like tens of millions of other
children abroad, is working instead of attending school.
But prohibiting child labor wouldn't do him any good, for
there's no school in the area for him to attend. If child
labor hawks manage to keep Abakr from working, without
giving him a school to attend, he and his family will
simply be poorer than ever.

And that's the problem when Americans get on their high
horses about child labor, without understanding the cruel
third world economics that cause it. The push by Democrats
like John Kerry for international labor standards is well
intentioned, but it is also oblivious to third world
realities.

Look, I feel like Scrooge when I speak out against bans on
sweatshops or on child labor. In the West, it's hard to
find anyone outside a university economics department who
agrees with me. But the basic Western attitude -
particularly among Democrats and warm-and-fuzzy
humanitarians - sometimes ends up making things worse.
Consider the results of two major American efforts to ban
imports produced by child labor:

In 1993, when Congress proposed the U.S. Child Labor
Deterrence Act, which would have blocked imports made by
children (if it had passed), garment factories in
Bangladesh fired 50,000 children. Many ended up in worse
jobs, like prostitution.

Then there was the hue and cry beginning in 1996 against
soccer balls stitched by children in their homes (mostly
after school) in Sialkot, Pakistan. As a result, the balls
are now stitched by adults, often in factories under
international monitoring.

But many women are worse off. Conservative Pakistanis
believe that women shouldn't work outside the home, so
stitching soccer balls is now off limits for many of them.
Moreover, bad publicity about Pakistan led China to grab
market share with machine-stitched balls: over the next two
years, Pakistan's share of the U.S. soccer ball market
dropped to 45 percent from 65 percent.

So poor Pakistani families who depended on earnings from
women or children who stitched soccer balls are now further
impoverished.

I'm not arguing that child labor is a good thing. It isn't.
But as Jagdish Bhagwati, the eminent trade economist, notes
in his new book, "In Defense of Globalization," thundering
against child labor doesn't address the poverty that causes
it.

In the village of Toukoultoukouli in Chad, I visited the 17
girls and 31 boys in the two-room school. Many children,
especially girls, never attend school, which ends after the
fourth grade.

So a 12-year-old boy working in Toukoultoukouli has gotten
all the education he can. Instead of keeping him from
working, Westerners should channel their indignation into
getting all children into school for at least those four
years - and there is one way that could perhaps be
achieved.

It's bribery. The U.N. World Food Program runs a model
foreign aid effort called the school feeding program. It
offers free meals to children in poor schools (and an extra
bribe of grain for girl students to take home to their
families). Almost everywhere, providing food raises school
attendance, particularly for girls. "If there were meals
here, parents would send their kids," said Muhammad Adam, a
teacher in Toukoultoukouli.

School feeding costs just 19 cents per day per child.

So here's my challenge to university students: Instead of
spending your energy boycotting Nike or pressing for
barriers against child labor, why not sponsor school meals
in places like Toukoultoukouli?

I spoke with officials at the World Food Program, and
they'd be thrilled to have private groups or individuals
help sponsor school feedings. (See
www.nytimes.com/kristofresponds for details.) Children in
Africa will be much better off with a hot meal and an
education than with your self-righteous indignation.

[Paladin D]

D'oh! Voted for [b]"no"[/b] by accident, got confused.

[Lil Red]

good thing that i don't like diamonds, but like sapphires. and they're mined in my state, so there!

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Lil Red Devil' date='Apr 30 2004, 09:21 AM'] good thing that i don't like diamonds, but like sapphires.  and they're mined in my state, so there!  [/quote]
on stolen Indian land ... I'm so so sorry RD, but the tortured liberal I have shackled up inside is screaming to come out and play

[Lil Red]

yeah, but at least we don't have slaved people mining ours! They get paid a pretty good wage!

[IcePrincessKRS]

Jake, thats exactly what I was thinking!

Red, my sister hates diamonds, too! Her engagement ring is a ruby.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Lil Red Devil' date='Apr 30 2004, 09:36 AM'] yeah, but at least we don't have slaved people mining ours! They get paid a pretty good wage! [/quote]
define slavery... muahhahaha the liberal beast is out!!!

[Lil Red]

Slavery:

-the state of being under the control of another person
-the practice of owning slaves
-work done under harsh conditions for little or no pay
-The most extreme, coercive, abusive, and inhumane form of legalized inequality; people are treated as property.
-A system of enforced servitude in which people are owned by others and in which enslaved status is transferred from parents to children.

[pinstripes]

[quote name='lankyswimmer' date='Apr 29 2004, 11:20 PM'] alright then.....show me an industry that pays its workers absolutely fair and equal wages and benefits.......umm yea that doesnt exist [/quote]
STARBUCKS, BABY! BEST COMPANY TO WORK FOR!!!