Is It A Sin If...

[CreepyCrawler]

doesn't starbucks support Planned Parenthood?

[Aloysius]

yo, aloysius here to randomly nitpick on a few things without even touching the issue

#1 something is a sin if you do not know it is wrong, you just aren't culpable for it. in all practical terms when thinking about whether or not you committed a sin, it's not a sin. but technically it would still be something contrary to God that offends Him, so it technically is a sin, you just aren't culpable.

#2 St. Peter is not heaven's gatekeeper. this was invented by the protestants to explain the Keys to the Kingdom passage away. Because it has no scriptural precedent and Keys representing authority do have scriptural precent we can safely assume St. Peter is not a 2000 year old doorman.


alrighty then, i don't feel like weighing in one way or the other on the actual issue, so continue

[IcePrincessKRS]

lol Al, good to see ya. You crack me up!

[crusader1234]

[quote]......it is justified to spend the extra money and suggest vanity than to give the 2 dollars???[/quote]

Suggesting vanity? As far as I am concerned, I would rather 'appear' vain than give money to slave drivers.

As for why I am picking on you, well I'm not, I'm just directly refuting your points. You made them, so I'm directing my rebuttal at you.

[quote]Forcing hard labor on maltreated "slave" workers is objectively a sin.

Buying a diamond is not.[/quote]

Buying a conflict diamond is collaborating directly with evil (this sentence courtesy of Will). And, as I have said before, a simple search on the internet will show you where you can buy non conflict diamonds.

[quote]is it a sin if you buy a diamond ring when many diamonds are mined in areas of the world where workers are treated unfairly? wouldn't you be paying for that to continue?
[/quote]

So back to the original question, there ARE ways to buy diamonds you know arent supporting this industry. However, neglecting to do so and collaborating with evil, or knowing its a conflict diamond and buying it for cheap, is a sin.

Creepycrawler, calling me a hippie lunatic is a compliment so thank you hahaha. However, there are many companies which try to get a message out but this is hard because most companies threaten to pull sponsorship of TV shows etc if commercials/ads are aired.

Be a responsible Christian, go online and find good brands. At the VERY LEAST, make it easy on yourself, and look at the label and if it says "Made In Canada/USA/Mexico (or any other country which you know doesnt have slave labour)" then that is an easy indicator you arent funding anything too bad. At least not slavery.

Aloysius, thanks for the St. Peter thing, I didn't really know. Not that it makes a difference about who lets us in... anyways and as for the first thing, I sort of think not checking into where you are putting your money is like Criminal Neglect. Maybe thats taking it a bit far though lol.

I find it ironic, that some of you like to Rant about how your not electing Kerry because you dont want your tax money supporting a president who supports abortions! Then, you go and say 'How are we supposed to look into everything we buy to see what we are doing?'

AMDG... including shopping

Edited April 30, 2004 by crusader1234

[Crusader_4]

Hey Guys... Conflict diamonds are particularly evil especially for the word in front of them CONFLICT. These are diamonds that are coming from socieites that have civil unrest and such. The sale of these diamonds supports the civil and bloody wars in the area of the sale. It is not simply the money going to rich industrialists...its the money going to armies and rebels and all of these civil wars in Africa. Further to that these are the wars where Children are conscirpited and we have Child soldiers and the raping of villages and pillaging. ITs not simply human conditions these diamonds fund wars that rob children as well as adults of their lives. By buying these diamonds one practically handss the money over to the faction armies to buy weapons used for the massacring of people. So when one buys a diamond and wants it cheap think about how many lives you are wearing on your finger and how many childhoods have been ruined. There are alternatives as Crusader1234 has mentioned before...and they do not have the same immorality associated with them...but of course at a higher monetary value. So which is more important how thick your wallet is or how many children die to put a ring on your finger.

Edited April 30, 2004 by Crusader_4

[crusader1234]

Way to go Crusader_4. Haha, thats what I was trying to get at and you put it together well.

[crusader1234]

[quote]During the Maputo meeting, 15 African bishops, 15 Latin American bishops, representatives from the United States, and several experts reflected on the nature of present-day conflicts. They heard testimonies about the suffering of civilians in conflict areas of developing countries, and observed how the nature of war has changed since 1989.

Today, many wars are "identity conflicts" within a country. "Ideology is rarely a motive, despite the claims of the warring parties. Violence has become a means used by criminal bands to gain access to the riches of a nation. Civilians are the main targets, with rape and mutilation being used as instruments of terror," MacLaren explained.

Many of the participants emphasized that at present, neither religion nor ideologies are behind the world's wars. Willing markets in Europe and North America for attractive products like Sierra Leone's diamonds and Colombia's drugs play a decisive role in modern conflicts.

[/quote]

That is from zenit.org

[quote]To many people, diamonds symbolize love, happiness or wealth. However, for many others, they mean conflict, misery and poverty. In some African countries, such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, profits from the unregulated diamond trade are used to fund armed conflicts. As a result, tens of thousands of civilians have over the past years been killed or tortured and millions have been displaced.

[/quote]

That is from amnesty.org

But for the 6 or so of you who think conflict diamonds are OK since they are less expensive so you can afford more bling and blind has to come from somwehere... Do you need more quotes?

[Lil Red]

the thing is, it is almost impossible with diamonds to track if they came from conflict areas. that's why i stick with montana yogo sapphires!

[url="http://www.montanagem.com/"]http://www.montanagem.com/[/url] to learn more.

[Crusader_4]

Actually that is no longer the case one can quite honestly ask where a diamond is from and I know in Canada i dont know about the United States but they are requried to tell u the location.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't think conflict diamonds are good (hopefully you didn't mean me, because thats not what I meant at all) but honestly, the idea of conflict diamonds had never occured to me. I have diamonds in my wedding band and engagement ring... I tried doing a search on them but couldn't find much as to who supplies acceptable diamonds and who doesn't.... can you get me a link? I'm curious, but if it turns out mine is a CD there's not really much I can do about it at this point (except, of course, try and give aid in other ways)....

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 30 2004, 04:39 PM']

Creepycrawler, calling me a hippie lunatic is a compliment so thank you hahaha. However, there are many companies which try to get a message out but this is hard because most companies threaten to pull sponsorship of TV shows etc if commercials/ads are aired.
[/quote]
i knew you'd like that
i meant it as a compliment. it's important to educate people in any way you can, even if it's just on internet phorums

[luciana]

I think I remember something about that zenit story, but I never heard of the term "conflict diamonds" to refer to those that support the civil wars. So, it wouldn't be a sin if someone had one of them unkowingly. Once a person knows better, no invincible ignorance, than they shouldn't support companies that support evil. If they do, it would be a sin. This kind of reminds me of the debate over these pro-abortion politicians who call themselves Catholic-- they shouldn't receive the Eucharist because they are in a state of mortal sin? because they cause scandal and publically support abortion with money and legislation.
I guess, how serious the sin, if any, of a consumer is depends on their full knowledge of the companies practices, that those practices are of a serious matter,a nd that the consumer does it anyway? or am I reallly wrong in my thinking?

I am not getting any bling-bling from any gentleman at the moment, but how would one know if the diamond is from a fair source? Do you have links to your info. crusader1234?

[crusader1234]

Hey, it varies from place to place. You can request, before buying, a certificate of where the diamond is mined. Polar Bear (Canadian) Diamonds are obviously conflict free. Ask your Jeweler for a certificate. The certificate is kind of like a clothes label. If it says Canada you know its ok. Same with US.

[crusader1234]

Oh, and don't worry about returning your wedding ring. Since you had no idea it couldnt have been a mortal sin I'm sure. HOWEVER make sure in the future that yuo know where your diamonds are coming from.

[CreepyCrawler]

why don't men give women chocolate rings? diamonds may be forever but chocolate tastes SO MUCH BETTER!

[crusader1234]

because nobody wants a fat wife. hahahaha just jokin

[IcePrincessKRS]

So in the USA (and Canada), unless its smuggled black market or something, diamonds are fine to buy in stores (if I'm reading that correctly)? So its ok for us to buy them, but we should work on supporting causes to stop the sale of conflict diamonds in other countries?

I wouldn't return my rings, its too late to do that now anyway (I think the warranty is still in effect but we can't return it, its been over 2 years since we bought them), unless I tried to hock them.... and I couldn't bring myself to do that. I have far too much sentimental value attached to them. I was just wondering if it were a possibliity that diamonds from jewelers here in the US were conflict diamonds. (Chances are likely that I won't be getting any more diamonds. lol At least not for a good LONG time! I would try to make sure that the jeweler Matt want to didn't have conflict gems, though... subliminal messages or something.... *such and such jewelers is BAD!* )

(I'm just trying to be really clear here, sorry if I'm being annoying lol)

Edited May 1, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 30 2004, 04:39 PM'] Be a responsible Christian, go online and find good brands. At the VERY LEAST, make it easy on yourself, and look at the label and if it says "Made In Canada/USA/Mexico (or any other country which you know doesnt have slave labour)" then that is an easy indicator you arent funding anything too bad. At least not slavery.
[/quote]
How is sweatshop labor in poverty different than poverty elsewhere? In an earlier post you agreed with the poverty of miners being deserved and tolerable as long as people in Ethiopia remain poor - this makes no sense. A more practical solution would be to avoid it all together and TOTALLY work for change.

[M.SIGGA]

Hey Lil'Red...

[quote]Slavery:

[b]-the state of being under the control of another person[/b]
-the practice of owning slaves
[b]-work done under harsh conditions for little or no pay[/b]
[b]-The most extreme, coercive, abusive, and inhumane form of legalized inequality; people are treated as property.[/b]
-A system of enforced servitude in which people are owned by others and in which enslaved status is transferred from parents to children.[/quote]

You're actually getting closer to my way of thinking! TOUCHE

[Lil Red]

but, M.SIGGA, if you are getting a fair wage, then you are not being treated as property. You ARE working under harsh conditions, but you are getting paid a good wage. You are NOT under someone's control, because you could quit anytime you like and you would not be hunted down like a dog and shot for it.