It Appears Herman Cain

[Lil Red]

Ugh Romney. Fyi, my phone wants to turn Romney to 'donkey' and I don't think it is much off the mark

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318701333' post='2321640']
his 9-9-9 plan is unconstitutional. the sixteenth amendment permits the Federal Government to levy personal income tax. we would need to have another constitutional amendment to permit the Federal Government to have a national sales tax... and you KNOW once the government has that power it's not going to stay at 9 forever.

I just wish we had a candidate who would pledge to limit himself to the constitutional limits on the Federal Government. oh wait, there is one, but no one likes him cause they like to run around the world with our military trying to solve everyone else's problems (and causing tons of more problems and civilian death in the process)...

anyway, I don't hate on Herman Cain... but I definitely wouldn't vote for him. I think he'd be ineffective as a pro-life president, though he'd turn it around from Obama he wouldn't go the extra mile to do what is necessary to bash the Federal power that forbade states from making abortion illegal, and I think his economic policies are unconstitutional and will not work.

I also don't think he'll get the nomination... percentage wise he's in the ballpark with Ron Paul with Romney way ahead, unless we see a dramatic change for the better before the primaries, the Republicans are going to be stuck with Romney.
[/quote]

I too don't like the sales tax idea. Bachman called the idea naive and I agree with her. I don not think that he would get it. I am glad that the 16th amendment is there. What I like is that he more than open to tossing the whole tax code and replacing it with something simpler and hopefully less open to corruption.

As to his pro-life stance, I do not question it. He is firm there. To compare him to Obama who defended the killing of aborted babies who survived abortion as one of the few stands that he took in the state legislature is grossly unfair.

I don't know if he can get the nomination. FYI, Cain is leading in some national polls. I think that the republicans are looking for someone who is left-wing and they don't seem to think that Romney is. I like what I have seen from Cain.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318701333' post='2321640']
his 9-9-9 plan is unconstitutional. the sixteenth amendment permits the Federal Government to levy personal income tax. we would need to have another constitutional amendment to permit the Federal Government to have a national sales tax... and you KNOW once the government has that power it's not going to stay at 9 forever.

I just wish we had a candidate who would pledge to limit himself to the constitutional limits on the Federal Government. oh wait, there is one, but no one likes him cause they like to run around the world with our military trying to solve everyone else's problems (and causing tons of more problems and civilian death in the process)...

Ron Paul FTW!

[/quote]
Your stance confuses me. Ron Paul wants to implement the Fair Tax, which is a national sales tax. Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan is a phased approach to the Fair Tax (if you read his plan, 9-9-9 is "phase 1" and the Fair Tax is "phase 2").

So your reason for not liking Herman Cain should automatically make you not like Ron Paul, so I don't get it.

[Aloysius]

Ron Paul refuses to co-sponser the Fair Tax bill, but has said that if it did come up he would [i]probably [/i]vote for it. That's hardly an endorsement of a national sales tax, the Fair Tax bill calls for the 16th ammendment to be repealed, so it could be a step in the right direction. However, as Ron Paul has said, he fears that any national sales tax would inevitably include BOTH the sales and income tax eventually. He would like to go back to the way government was funded PRIOR to the introduction of the Federal Income Tax. which means NO sales or income tax.

so no, Ron Paul does not support a National Sales Tax, though he would support abolishing income tax.

[Aloysius]

Mercy, I don't doubt his pro-life stance at all, I just doubt he'd be effective because he lacks the idealogical constitutional framework that would be necessary to really make the fight against abortion possible in this country. maybe I'm wrong, though, I just get the sense that without a radical constitutionalist arguing from the standpoint of the framework of the Country itself, we're never going to see anything more than Bush's meager progress against the worst forms of abortion, while the standard everyday abortions are never effectively fought against by law. de-centralize the Federal power and the pro-life movement becomes very powerful. I imagine a world where most states begin to illegalize abortions because of local pro-life movement lobbying and impose fines on places like planned parenthood, cutting their funding by decreasing their business and cutting their finances by fines, and a federal government that no longer gives them any funding, so that in the few states where they can still operate they increasingly whither and die until those states finally see the light of illegalizing it as well. that's the battle I think needs to happen, and it can only happen with a true basher of federal power, not a new Newt Gingrich generation that's going to go to Washington talking about bashing federal power but end up selling out (which I think Cain would end up being a part of, in my humble estimation)

I actually DON'T like that the 16th amendment is there and would support repealing it. I do admire Cain's willingness to throw out the entire tax code to try to come up with something more fair, but I don't like that he'd do it while ignoring the Constitution and I don't like that he seems to think a sales tax will somehow save us from bad taxation, when it would actually make us more vulnerable to potentially even worse taxation IMO.

Edited October 16, 2011 by Aloysius

[Jesus_lol]

oh and aside from the fact that Herman Cain's tax plan is the exact same as the one in sim city, accountants are saying that it will very heavily increase the over all tax rate on the middle and lower class (under 100k).

the dude is a political albatross for the conservatives, just like Sarah Palin was.

[BG45]

Sim City tax plans are a step up from Civilization taxes on Chieftan. I can run the world's largest military and continue to build it without worrying about my debts because once I run out of gold, the computer doesn't make me lose anything.

Edit: Then again I don't want to give any candidates ideas. After all, my last resort strategy in Civilization is usualy to build tundra colonies and nuke the world enough to flood it via global warming and then I have the only surviving industry to pump out troops to take the flooded cities where 9/10 of the world population has just been eliminated via famine. No...my Catholic morality doesn't exist in the Civ world...

Edited October 17, 2011 by BG45

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1318704873' post='2321665']
Your stance confuses me. Ron Paul wants to implement the Fair Tax, which is a national sales tax. Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan is a phased approach to the Fair Tax (if you read his plan, 9-9-9 is "phase 1" and the Fair Tax is "phase 2").

So your reason for not liking Herman Cain should automatically make you not like Ron Paul, so I don't get it.
[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iJvtQpyx1A&feature=player_embedded

[Aloysius]

5:20 for Shiff's criticism of the 9-9-9 plan there is a "fourth 9"--9% payroll tax, that's going to actually be the thing that hikes lower income taxes.

either way I hate how nobody bothers to question whether the 9-9-9 plan is constitutional, whether national sales tax is constitutional at all.

[kamiller42]

I like Cain's personality, his ability to communicate, his focus on solutions rather than campaign noise, the simplicity of his plans, and the irritation he causes racist leftists.

What I don't like are the assumptions in his plans, the gaps in understanding current events, and his preference for Romney over Perry (Really, Cain?).

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1318824192' post='2322520']
the dude is a political albatross for the conservatives, just like Sarah Palin was.
[/quote]
The democrat party is an albatross on this nation, just like the communists were on Russia.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318861107' post='2322652']
5:20 for Shiff's criticism of the 9-9-9 plan there is a "fourth 9"--9% payroll tax, that's going to actually be the thing that hikes lower income taxes.

either way I hate how nobody bothers to question whether the 9-9-9 plan is constitutional, whether national sales tax is constitutional at all.
[/quote]
Cain addresses many of the complaints of 999 in an article published today by him.

"[url="http://www.northstarwriters.com/2011/10/16/9-responses-to-9-false-attacks-on-the-9-9-9-plan/"]9 responses to 9 false attacks on the 9-9-9 plan[/url]"

I still don't believe in 999, but good to see he's answering the critics.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318755310' post='2321986']


so no, Ron Paul does not support a National Sales Tax, though he would support abolishing income tax.
[/quote]
OK, then what taxes would we pay under Ron Paul?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318851295' post='2322590']

[/quote]
I don't think that Schiff guy knows what he's talking about. He said that the 9% corporate tax equals a 9% payroll tax, because his logic is that if the corporation didn't have to pay the 9% corporate tax, that entire 9% would go directly to the employees. I don't know what corporations he's talking about but that seems to be a huge assumption on his part.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1318861107' post='2322652']
5:20 for Shiff's criticism of the 9-9-9 plan there is a "fourth 9"--9% payroll tax, that's going to actually be the thing that hikes lower income taxes.

either way I hate how nobody bothers to question whether the 9-9-9 plan is constitutional, whether national sales tax is constitutional at all.
[/quote]

Cain said on Meet the Press that there would be no payroll taxes with his plan

[dUSt]

I think Winchester is a mouthpiece for the man.

[Aloysius]

haha, well I know of Peter Shiff as a good economist, so I just took his word for it about the hidden fourth 9. that's good if it's not true.

under a President Ron Paul we'd probably be paying the same taxes as under a President Herman Cain, income taxes, because these pie-in-the-sky overhauls will never pass, at least not "just because we elected a president that proposed them". that's not to say we shouldn't fight for them, and I appreciate Cain's argument against the attitude that dismisses an idea because it won't work. But Ron Paul's immediate plans would call for massive spending cuts and massive tax cuts, something that is more practical. you can't reign in the beast all at once, you have to do it step by step, especially because the Federal Government has made certain promises to people and they should fulfill such obligations (ie Social Security). He's said that we have to do it step by step so that we're not hurting the people that have come to rely on such things, so that we can start returning the decision as to whether such programs would exist back to the states, letting states run any such programs (so you might have a local state Social Security system, or you might not, depending upon who you elect to your state government).

as to what he'd do to overhaul the system, I believe from what I've heard him say he'd like to repeal the 16th amendment, and have the Federal Government funded by Tariffs and by the states. under Ron Paul's ideal system, individual citizens would pay NO federal taxes, only state and local taxes. and if any state was taxing too high, then you're free to move to a different state. each state would have a certain responsibility towards funding the Federal Government (though a smaller Federal Government would require much less funding than there is now), so you'd see some increase in state taxes, but that'd be the only taxes you'd be paying.

after Ron Paul somehow miraculously accomplished that and returned our country to its constitutional principals, you're free to try to get Herman Cain to run for governor of Texas where he would have full power to implement a 9-9-9 plan.

[Aloysius]

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/ron-paul-plan-to-restore-america/

"To stand with the American People, President Paul will take a salary of $39,336, approximately equal to the median personal income of the American worker. "

let's hear a pledge like that from every other candidate!! that's of course not too much of a cut, but it'd be hugely symbolic!

[Papist]

Whoever gets the bid, needs to unload both barrels on Obama and fussy poot around key issues.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1318697523' post='2321618']
Seriously, why do you people not like Cain? His 9-9-9 plan was just endorsed by Reagan's economic adviser.[/quote]
That's a [b]bad[/b] thing. Reagan oversaw the largest increase in national debt. Remember that ceiling thing that serves no purpose?


[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1318697523' post='2321618']He's staunchly pro-life, saying that life begins at conception. He comes off as very real, not fake or phony like all the other candidates.
[/quote]I agree with this part.

[Adrestia]

p.s. I find it amusing that Rick Perry's stock dropped as soon as the rest of the country heard him speak. Whew!