Determining That Someone Isn't Called?

[Sarah147]

Hello,

This post is for everyone.

I'm just wondering how an Order determines if someone is or isn't called?


I'm concerned because I have to plan for my near future as I may not have a place to live and the Order I'm discerning may say I'm not called.

God bless you.

[Sarah147]

[b][u][size=5][color=#003161][quote]Hey, What’s My Vocation?[/color][/size][/u][/b][color=#656565][size=5] [/size][/color][left][color=#656565][size=5]In order for you to have a vocation there are certain conditions you have to fulfill. If there is anything missing that you are not able to acquire by putting in a little bit of effort, it would be a sign that you don’t have a vocation.[/size][/color][/left]

[color=#003161][b]by Father Anthony Bannon, LC | Source:[/b][/color]


[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][b]Q.[/b] Dear Father Anthony,[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]As tempted as I am to simply type in my name and say, “Hey, what’s my vocation?” I know it’s not that simple. But are there any signs toward the sisterhood? I’m very confused.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]– Angelique[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][b]A.[/b] Dear Angelique:[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]As regards signs toward the sisterhood, there are some — but beware, they are not infallible. Let me explain:[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In order for you to have a vocation there are certain conditions you have to fulfill: starting from the bottom up, you have to have the necessary physical health for the particular vocation you are thinking of, the necessary psychological and emotional health, the necessary intelligence, and a maturity that is proportionate to your age. Now, all of the above doesn’t make you “extraordinary,” just pretty normal. It is the human base that is needed for a vocation, so if there is anything missing that you are not able to acquire by putting in a little bit of effort, it would be a sign that you don’t have a vocation.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The final condition, if all the above are in place, is the clincher: you have to have an interest in the vocation for the proper reason. It would not be enough or proper to want to be a Sister in order to travel, or in order to teach, or in order to take care of the sick… These are human reasons still on the natural level, even though the latter two are highly commendable goals. Your interest should stem from a faith-moved interest: to care for the sick, or teach, in order to love Christ by serving others, for example; or in order to use your life in the way most pleasing to God; or in order to save your own soul.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The major factor is the fact that you are asking yourself the question. This can often be God speaking to your soul, moving you, gently leading you to look into it more and to open yourself more to his grace. If you have the basic conditions I mentioned above, it would be well worth your while looking into it more. Visit a congregation of nuns that interests you, or look into the consecrated life in one of the new movements in the Church. Get to know the people, and go on a retreat.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]And, especially, ask yourself a question that is much more important than, “Is God calling me?” Ask yourself, “Am I willing to say yes if he is calling me?” Sometimes that’s the problem.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]God bless.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]– Father Anthony[/font][/color]


[url="http://catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=3291&grupo=Lifestyle&canal=Vocation"][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Source[/font][/color][/url]

[/quote]

Edited November 30, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Nunsense]

You may indeed be called, but not necessarily in the time frame that you desire. Simply because you don't have somewhere to live is not a good reason for a community to accept you. However, if the community decides you are a fit for them AND they know that you will soon have nowhere to live, they might recommend you come to live with them. I think this happened with faithcecilia recently. He community wanted her to come, and she was going to have to leave her employer (where she lived) so they offered to let her come early and live in their guest house (I think it was).

No two communities make their decision the same way, so there isn't a sort of standard answer to your question. I guess if you like them and they think you would fit in with them, then it is worth a try. If they think that some of your issues (medical, physical, emotional etc) might not work for them, that doesn't mean that another community might not think you would do fine. so if one community says no, or even not now, be prepared for that and respond with trust in God. you know you have all our prayers.

[Sarah147]

Thank you so much for what you shared! Especially about faithcecilia!! Wow!


I'm looking at visiting RSM in May 2012, if they and my relatives are in agreement. I asked Sister if I could get psych exam the same visit to better determine if I'm called.

I'm nervous because Sister still hasn't returned my email. Sister had written earlier within a few days or less before. I hope she doesn't have a problem with me as I told her everything about me and what's going on.

Can anyone tell me what the RSM ask in the psych exam? I understand it's to determine vocation.


Can anyone tell me what Sisters look for in determining if someone seems to have a calling? What qualities or what not?

What does the VD ask to get a feel for the person? Do they tend to ask why you want to be a Sister?

Edited November 30, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Lil'Nun]

Thank you for starting this post, because this does confuse me. I read that obstacles can be indications that someone does NOT have a vocation. Then I read that obstacles are often put in the way of those that DO have vocations as the tempter wants to prevent the good they may do for our Lord, themselves and humanity.
So, how are you supposed to be sure you know the difference?
If I get an obstacle is that God telling me I am on the wrong track or is it the tempter (for want of a better word) trying to stop me doing my Lord's will?
I understand of course there are different types of obstacles and this answers part of the question. But otherwise?

[Nunsense]

One thing that helped me with this problem is the direction I received from an Jesuit priest who followed Ignatius' rules of discernment. He told me that the 'devil can always be told by his tail'. And then he explained this to me as meaning that we need to look at the ultimate outcome of any consolation, desolation or obstacle and see if what has happened has helped us to grow in virtue or not.

For example, if we experience a setback, but find that this leads us to an increase of love and trust in God, and increases the virtues of patience, compassion for others, etc...then that obstacle (or whatever) can be considered either of divine origin or something allowed by God to help us. If however, we feel impatience, anger, resentment, etc etc... instead of an increase in any of the virtues, then we are seeing 'the tail of the devil'. And he can only hurt us if we let go of God.

So if you don't get what you want, how do you respond? To allow God to do His work within us, we need to trust Him, even if that means we dn't get our own way. That doesn't mean that He doesn't want us, just that He wants us to let Him be in charge.

I always remember Abraham who is praised for his great faith in God by offering his son as sacrifice. BUT, before Abraham got to that great degree of faith, he showed surprising lack of faith when he tried to take charge of things by having a baby with Hagar instead of waiting on God's time for Sarah to conceive. He must have learned his lesson from that because the end result of his interference in God's plan and timing was the trouble that came from his actions. So by the time God did ask him to sacrifice Isaac, he was ready to listen!

Take everything as a gift from God,even temptations. The devil can't do anything to harm us if we keep trusting in God because He can turn anything to our good. 'God writes straight with crooked lines.'

To discern whether you are called or not, watch to see if your thirst for the life increases or decreases after rejection. Patient perseverence (to me) is an indication that there is a calling. Anger, resentment, bitterness, or a turning away from discernment may mean that it was just an attraction rather than a real calling. In that case, there is no fault in not pursuing religious life and in fact one may find that they feel called to serving God in some other way.

And as I think others have written before, it may be that there is a reason for a person to discern religious life and/or enter for a short time and then leave. Most people who have either been in seminary or religious life and left, seem to have been very grateful for the time they spent doing so. God works differently for each individual.

[InPersonaChriste]

I know there is an answer to this, but I always find the answer frustrating. It is that we must open our hearts more to the will of God and stop controlling our lives.

He decides whether we have a vocation or not. I am not saying that we do not partake in the choice of our vocation, but that it is something he has chosen for us. And we trust that the community we are discerning with listen to Jesus when they make their decision.

Keep in mind that Therese of Lisieux poor clare sister went back 3 times to the convent until she finally stayed there (pardon me it might be more but I cannot remember as it is a very early hour).

[Sarah147]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1322656478' post='2342605']
Thank you so much for what you shared! Especially about faithcecilia!! Wow!


I'm looking at visiting RSM in May 2012, if they and my relatives are in agreement. I asked Sister if I could get psych exam the same visit to better determine if I'm called.

I'm nervous because Sister still hasn't returned my email. Sister had written earlier within a few days or less before. I hope she doesn't have a problem with me as I told her everything about me and what's going on.

Can anyone tell me what the RSM ask in the psych exam? I understand it's to determine vocation.


Can anyone tell me what Sisters look for in determining if someone seems to have a calling? What qualities or what not?

What does the VD ask to get a feel for the person? Do they tend to ask why you want to be a Sister?
[/quote]


Any thoughts on the above??

[Nunsense]

[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1322660217' post='2342633']
I know there is an answer to this, but I always find the answer frustrating. It is that we must open our hearts more to the will of God and stop controlling our lives.

He decides whether we have a vocation or not. I am not saying that we do not partake in the choice of our vocation, but that it is something he has chosen for us. And we trust that the community we are discerning with listen to Jesus when they make their decision.

Keep in mind that Therese of Lisieux poor clare sister went back 3 times to the convent until she finally stayed there (pardon me it might be more but I cannot remember as it is a very early hour).
[/quote]



Very good point. Leonie tried the Poor Clares and left after two months, then entered the Visitation three different times but finally succeeded that last time (her fourth attempt at religious life). I'm sure she felt discouraged many times but she kept persevering time and time again. She is a real inspiration to those of us who have tried and failed before. I will beat her record, but I do hope I ended up with the same result - entering and finally staying as she did. She speaks to me much more than even St Therese because of how hard it was for her.

It is true that it is God's call, but there is also a part for us to play in responding to that call with trust and love.

[Nunsense]

I think there is an interesting thread on CA forum in their vocations section called 'Let's Pretend' by Sr Helena. She says let's pretend she is a Carmelite Prioress and you have come to talk about a vocation with them. She then goes on to ask questions like

'Why do you want to enter religious life?
what do you think it would be like living in the cloister?

etc...

I have had problems with my connection tonight so this link might not work
[url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=323250"]http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=323250[/url]

but you can go to their website and find it for yourself if you want.

I think it has a lot of the questions you might be asked if you were discerning religious life. Not all will fit for an active community (non-cloistered ones) but it's still interesting to think about.

[Sarah147]

Sister of RSM still hasn't gotten back to me. I wonder what's going on?

[Totus Tuus]

Don't worry about the future! God's going to take care of you!
Pray, hope, and don't worry. -St. Padre Pio

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1322687182' post='2342840']
Don't worry about the future! God's going to take care of you!
Pray, hope, and don't worry. -St. Padre Pio
[/quote]

That will be put on my tombstone.

[Lilllabettt]

It stinks. It does. At first blush, it seems unfair - why not let a person have a go - try it out, really see if it's a fit? But the reality is that communities are in the buisness of discernment; they know a lot about it. And if they *know* a person isn't called, it's a great mercy to come out and say it and spare the person a bigger disaster down the road.

[Sarah147]

But how do they determine it?

[das8949]

I know that it has been posted before but for those of you discerning it is important to be careful what you write in this Phorum. There are many religous as members as well as those who just peruse the site scanning the topics and posts affording them the opportunity to get to know you in advance in much the same way you learn more about the communities. When you go on a "Come and See" weekend, retreat, or live-in experience keep in mind that this process goes two ways. If I were in the position to discern I would approach it much like a job interview. It seems that one can learn much about an individual - is this person an introvert or extrovert; is she/he a team player; does his or her personification of their vocation and prayer life seem genuine; is this person's personality a good fit with our community. I also think it is important to highlight your strengths as well as your weaknesses in a honest way but also as "professionally" as possible. You would be surprised how much you can learn about someone from work, meals and recreation. If they can determine that you are not a fit for them early on, it really is in your best interest if they are honest rather than causing you more pain as the process progresses.

[das8949]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/user/10715-joyfullife/"][color=#272727]JoyfulLife[/color][/url]<p class="author_info">

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Posted Today, 05:30 PM
But how do they determine it?

Joyful,

Hopefully some Sisters will post to this thread but I think that religious communities much like employers know what personality characteristcs mesh with the rest of the organization; they know if they prefer assertive or passive members or a combination; they also take these matters to God in prayer and have a Vocation Committee in many cases who meet after an event has ended and discuss the potential of the candidates. It is not a cut and dry process but more like a tried and true one.

In the 60's when I entered, we did just that, we came and met the community, had one on ones with the Reverend Mother, VD's and PD's. Times were different and there were not discussions of charisms- if you wanted to teach you entered a teaching order, to nurse a nursing order. It is a much more complex process now as much has changed in the dynamics of our society and in the human relations field.

An example that I happen to se was that a candidate described her discernment publically (written on website) in terms of wearing the habit and being called Sister rather than in a more spiritually mature manner and in the end was asked to wait a year. Whether or not that was a part of the process of determination obviously is not known but my point is that one should express themselves in ways that is going to showcase their attributes.

I hope this helps.

Edited November 30, 2011 by DarleneSteinemann

[OnlySunshine]

If there is anything that I could relate you about the discernment process, it's to be careful what you write in your correspondence with any Vocation Director. Of course, be honest, but don't assume that you found where you are called simply from what you believe. They have to affirm the call. I will say some prayers for you.

Edited November 30, 2011 by MaterMisericordiae

[beatitude]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1322688646' post='2342848']
But how do they determine it?
[/quote]

The Holy Spirit blesses them with the insight they need. That is really all that can be said.

It sounds as though you're trying to prepare for this in the same way you might study for a school exam, to increase your chances of 'passing'. It doesn't work like that. It's also not like job-hunting, where you have to do the best you can to sell yourself to the employer. Ultimately, you either have a vocation to a particular community or you haven't; and you need to trust that God will give both you and these experienced sisters the wisdom you need to see it.

As far as I know, psychological evaluations aren't usually done unless a candidate has already been accepted by the community. (Some communities may differ, but this is certainly the case with all the ones I know.) You seem to be rushing things quite a lot here - you haven't even met the RSMs yet, but you're already talking about the month when you might enter, and trying to arrange a psych assessment without having had a proper chat with one of the sisters. This does come across as anxious behaviour. I recognise it, because I myself have suffered from a fairly serious anxiety disorder, and this compulsive planning and rushing was something that I also used to do. In my case it was coupled with a fear of uncertainty, and from what you have written about the upcoming change in your work situation, I think you have the same difficulty.

You have written that you wouldn't be able to support yourself - but how do you know? You might very well be capable of finding a job and an independent apartment, with God's help. It could be that this is something you have to do. I did. It was terrifying, especially as I have other disabilities in addition to anxiety, and I was frightened that it would mean nobody would want to hire me. But I managed, and I'm glad I did. It brought me to a fuller understanding of my potential and all the gifts God has entrusted to me. It was quite an adventure, and one I needed to have. Without it I wouldn't know myself as well as I do now. Self-awareness is an important part of discernment, and one thing I am continually aware of is that anxiety is part of my temperament. I no longer have a medically diagnosable disorder, but I am more prone to anxiety than the average person, and no medication or therapy is ever going to take that away. I have had to learn to catch myself gently when my thoughts start racing ahead, and to offer any anxious feelings to God - not so that He can make them vanish, but so that He can prevent them from taking over my day. Now I no longer want this 'thorn in my flesh' to be removed, and I understand why St Paul was thankful for his. It's taugt me to trust.

Something that many people have commented on about me is the deep faith and trust they see in me. I get highly personal prayer requests from people to whom I've only spoken once or twice. Just a couple of months ago I had one from a former classmate whom I haven't seen in six years. This humbles me, and makes me feel a little uncomfortable, because I don't feel trusting, not inside. Inside I'm so muddled and jumbled up. With the help of a close friend, I was eventually able to see that this [i]is[/i] trust - it's not about feeling serene and calm all the time, but quietly plodding on even if you really don't have the faintest idea what's going to happen next and you're scared.

I hope that your medication can help you to manage your condition better, but I also think that you need to learn how to [i]use[/i] your difficulties. Don't just think about how to erase them, but about what they can teach you and how they can help you to grow in love for God and other people. There are people who go into religious life with quite severe mental health problems, and their perseverence is not determined by how well they squash those problems and whether they achieve 'normality', but whether they can make a gift of their whole person to God through this way of life. You can only do that if you're able to give yourself fully in this present moment. The same is true of everybody, mentally ill or not.

This is was the test of Faith's perseverence. You are right, Notting Hill Carmel's ability to be flexibile with her in order to meet her employer's needs is encouraging - but what about the two years that preceded her application to this community? To say that she suffered would be an understatement. She has shared quite a lot about her pain on PM, which is why I feel comfortable saying this in her absence, but I don't think any of us can fully appreciate how hard it was for her - and it was painful for me to witness at a distance, so goodness knows how much more painful it was for her to endure. When she was asked to leave her old monastery she had no idea what to do, where to go long-term - it was all unknown. But God has done great things for her and through her in those two years. She's probably changed one little boy's life forever. This was part of her vocation and her journey too. She hasn't just stepped into a monastery at a convenient time; she had a long hard (and necessary) slog to get there. If it were to be required of you, could you do a similar thing?

Vocation is only partly about where you end up. It's also about how you get there.

Edited November 30, 2011 by beatitude

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1322695680' post='2342910']

The Holy Spirit blesses them with the insight they need. That is really all that can be said.

It sounds as though you're trying to prepare for this in the same way you might study for a school exam, to increase your chances of 'passing'. It doesn't work like that. It's also not like job-hunting, where you have to do the best you can to sell yourself to the employer. Ultimately, you either have a vocation to a particular community or you haven't; and you need to trust that God will give both you and these experienced sisters the wisdom you need to see it.

As far as I know, psychological evaluations aren't usually done unless a candidate has already been accepted by the community. (Some communities may differ, but this is certainly the case with all the ones I know.) You seem to be rushing things quite a lot here - you haven't even met the RSMs yet, but you're already talking about the month when you might enter, and trying to arrange a psych assessment without having had a proper chat with one of the sisters. This does come across as anxious behaviour. I recognise it, because I myself have suffered from a fairly serious anxiety disorder, and this compulsive planning and rushing was something that I also used to do. In my case it was coupled with a fear of uncertainty, and from what you have written about the upcoming change in your work situation, I think you have the same difficulty.

You have written that you wouldn't be able to support yourself - but how do you know? You might very well be capable of finding a job and an independent apartment, with God's help. It could be that this is something you have to do. I did. It was terrifying, especially as I have other disabilities in addition to anxiety, and I was frightened that it would mean nobody would want to hire me. But I managed, and I'm glad I did. It brought me to a fuller understanding of my potential and all the gifts God has entrusted to me. It was quite an adventure, and one I needed to have. Without it I wouldn't know myself as well as I do now. Self-awareness is an important part of discernment, and one thing I am continually aware of is that anxiety is part of my temperament. I no longer have a medically diagnosable disorder, but I am more prone to anxiety than the average person, and no medication or therapy is ever going to take that away. I have had to learn to catch myself gently when my thoughts start racing ahead, and to offer any anxious feelings to God - not so that He can make them vanish, but so that He can prevent them from taking over my day. Now I no longer want this 'thorn in my flesh' to be removed, and I understand why St Paul was thankful for his. It's taugt me to trust.

Something that many people have commented on about me is the deep faith and trust they see in me. I get highly personal prayer requests from people to whom I've only spoken once or twice. Just a couple of months ago I had one from a former classmate whom I haven't seen in six years. This humbles me, and makes me feel a little uncomfortable, because I don't feel trusting, not inside. Inside I'm so muddled and jumbled up. With the help of a close friend, I was eventually able to see that this [i]is[/i] trust - it's not about feeling serene and calm all the time, but quietly plodding on even if you really don't have the faintest idea what's going to happen next and you're scared.

I hope that your medication can help you to manage your condition better, but I also think that you need to learn how to [i]use[/i] your difficulties. Don't just think about how to erase them, but about what they can teach you and how they can help you to grow in love for God and other people. There are people who go into religious life with quite severe mental health problems, and their perseverence is not determined by how well they squash those problems and whether they achieve 'normality', but whether they can make a gift of their whole person to God through this way of life. You can only do that if you're able to give yourself fully in this present moment.

This is was the test of Faith's perseverence. You are right, Notting Hill Carmel's ability to be flexibile with her in order to meet her employer's needs is encouraging - but what about the two years that preceded Faith's application to this community? To say that she suffered would be an understatement. She has shared quite a lot about her pain on PM, which is why I feel comfortable saying this in her absence, but I don't think any of us can fully appreciate how hard it was for her. I remember her struggling to adjust to that demanding live-in job with no personal space, being physically out of reach of all her friends, and crying every night. When she was asked to leave her old monastery she had no idea what to do, where to go long-term - it was all unknown. But God has done great things for her and through her in those two years. She's probably changed one little boy's life forever. This was part of her vocation and her journey too. She hasn't just stepped into a monastery at a convenient time; she had a long hard (and necessary) slog to get there. If it were to be required of you, could you do a similar thing?

Vocation is only partly about where you end up. It's also about how you get there.
[/quote]

What a beautiful and insightful post, beatitude. It is very much what I needed to hear right now.