Determining That Someone Isn't Called?

[Sister Marie]

I think she didn't realize what you were saying either ... its classic computer communication problems!

[Feankie]

You're correct. I do agree with everything you are saying, but I'm just not a single woman

[Sarah147]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1323264875' post='2346379']


If being single meant a loveless life then consecrated virgins and hermits would be loveless as well! And the desert fathers and mothers were aflame with love despite their solitary lifestyle!

In fact, living in a religious community isn't always the easiest way to life a life of love!! Communities are not only a great gift, they can also be a pretty good penance as well

As for families, well I think we all know that families (as much as we love them) can also be a source of great suffering for us in many ways! Let's face it, any situation can be both heaven and h*ll, full of love or full of self!
[/quote]


That is so true.


I guess, it's just in the friendships and contacts I have and have had, it typically is just a "hey, how are you doing" chit chat, and with some we catch up sometimes. But it's generally just been a best friend I've lived with kind of that I really experienced a loving relationship, hugs, laughs, really caring what I have to say, helping me through tough times, everything. Very motherly, more than my own mother ever did. And her health is bad and I won't be able to live with her forever and such. I just don't see where I can get that if living by myself in the future. Hopefully in a religious community, if I'm called, which I believe I am. But if that isn't what God wants...

Edited December 8, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1323361840' post='2347347']
I guess, it's just in the friendships and contacts I have and have had, it typically is just a "hey, how are you doing" chit chat, and with some we catch up sometimes. But it's generally just been a best friend I've lived with kind of that I really experienced a loving relationship, hugs, laughs, really caring what I have to say, helping me through tough times, everything. Very motherly, more than my own mother ever did. And her health is bad and I won't be able to live with her forever and such. I just don't see where I can get that if living by myself in the future. Hopefully in a religious community, if I'm called, which I believe I am. But if that isn't what God wants...
[/quote]

I can't completely describe the nature of the relationships between sisters in religious life in one post but I have to say that you are not going to find the kind of relationship you described above in religious life. There are a few reasons why. First, in most communities being "general" is a virtue. Generality means in very simple terms that whether you can't stand a sister, whether she is mean to you, whether she is nice to you, whether you like her... you give yourself in exactly the same way to her as to the others. You may be closer to some sisters than others but you are expected to relate to all sisters in community as your sisters in Christ... not necessarily as blood sisters would relate. You will find that there WILL be sisters who are not kind to you. When that happens you cannot find someone else to meet your emotional needs and make you feel better... that is when the sacrifice of love comes into play. Like St. Therese we must attempt to love them even more.

Secondly, community is not about what you receive... it is about what you give. Jesus' love brought Him to a horrific death - so should ours. The love sisters have for one another in community is characterized more by interior sacrifice of will, wants, and needs than by that kind of intimate relationship. The support we receive from one another is not because of verbal encouragement and kindness but because the nature of our life leads us to the sacrifice which teaches us to love as Christ. Community doesn't support chastity because it takes the place of that type of relationship but because it safeguards an empty place within us that can only be filled by God - not our sisters.

Third, one of the biggest disappointments women have early in religious life is that community is not what they expected it to be. Some expected relationships like mothers, blood sisters, family, friends... it is never any of those relationships. You will live with people you wouldn't have even considered associating with when you were in the world... now you must love them. The focus of religious life is not for the filling of an emptiness within us but for the preservation of that emptiness for God alone and then the pouring out of God's love on those we meet. If any sister DID fulfill that empty place within another... it would be time to rethink that relationship because it detracts from ones vocation not enhances it.

I'm not sure if this all makes sense and I'm trying to think of a good example to illustrate what I mean... I write this because I don't want women to enter communities with expectations that are unrealistic or with motives that won't be fulfilled in religious life. I'm not trying to be dramatic but religious life is austere and it is a call to death so that we can try to live the relationship with God that we will have in eternal life. There are sisters who will be kind and who will help you and who will truly love you... but they must also offer that in the same way to the other sisters around them. In religious life, there are saints and saint makers... women who are incredibly holy and the rest of us who are trying and possibly failing - we succeed by clinging to Christ... not to any human relationship. They can help us but they are not the ones that save us.

[i<3franciscans]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323365626' post='2347389']

I can't completely describe the nature of the relationships between sisters in religious life in one post but I have to say that you are not going to find the kind of relationship you described above in religious life. There are a few reasons why. First, in most communities being "general" is a virtue. Generality means in very simple terms that whether you can't stand a sister, whether she is mean to you, whether she is nice to you, whether you like her... you give yourself in exactly the same way to her as to the others. You may be closer to some sisters than others but you are expected to relate to all sisters in community as your sisters in Christ... not necessarily as blood sisters would relate. You will find that there WILL be sisters who are not kind to you. When that happens you cannot find someone else to meet your emotional needs and make you feel better... that is when the sacrifice of love comes into play. Like St. Therese we must attempt to love them even more.

Secondly, community is not about what you receive... it is about what you give. Jesus' love brought Him to a horrific death - so should ours. The love sisters have for one another in community is characterized more by interior sacrifice of will, wants, and needs than by that kind of intimate relationship. The support we receive from one another is not because of verbal encouragement and kindness but because the nature of our life leads us to the sacrifice which teaches us to love as Christ. Community doesn't support chastity because it takes the place of that type of relationship but because it safeguards an empty place within us that can only be filled by God - not our sisters.

Third, one of the biggest disappointments women have early in religious life is that community is not what they expected it to be. Some expected relationships like mothers, blood sisters, family, friends... it is never any of those relationships. You will live with people you wouldn't have even considered associating with when you were in the world... now you must love them. The focus of religious life is not for the filling of an emptiness within us but for the preservation of that emptiness for God alone and then the pouring out of God's love on those we meet. If any sister DID fulfill that empty place within another... it would be time to rethink that relationship because it detracts from ones vocation not enhances it.

I'm not sure if this all makes sense and I'm trying to think of a good example to illustrate what I mean... I write this because I don't want women to enter communities with expectations that are unrealistic or with motives that won't be fulfilled in religious life. I'm not trying to be dramatic but religious life is austere and it is a call to death so that we can try to live the relationship with God that we will have in eternal life. There are sisters who will be kind and who will help you and who will truly love you... but they must also offer that in the same way to the other sisters around them. In religious life, there are saints and saint makers... women who are incredibly holy and the rest of us who are trying and possibly failing - we succeed by clinging to Christ... not to any human relationship. They can help us but they are not the ones that save us.
[/quote]
It all makes perfect sense. Thank you so much for sharing this. I know it was not directed toward me, but it was so insightful and very helpful.

[Sister Marie]

Just to clarify... I'm going off of what Joyful said but I'm also not directing it towards her either. It's just a general observation that I've noticed both in myself when I entered religious life and in things I hear other people saying from outside the experience of religious life.

[i<3franciscans]

[StClare_OraProNobis]

Actually, any kind of emotional dependency goes against the vow of chastity in religious life. There is indeed a healthy interdependence that exists. However, religious life can be very difficult because there is a real sense in which you must sacrifice the intimacy with another person which is found in us naturally and disposes us to marriage. Indeed it is said that is not a "natural" way to live, but rather a "supernatural vocation." It requires grace upon grace.

This is one reason why many communities are so careful about the maturity, especially emotional maturity of those they accept. I certainly had struggles in religious life. The main struggle was my mental illness, but also I had some serious "growing up" to do emotionally. We do not all have the capacity for religious life and this is not to downplay our unique gifts and qualities for the Church. Part of being mature in Christ is the humility to accept our limitations in trust and obedience.

[OnlySunshine]

I've heard from MANY religious orders that they do not allow close relationships with Sisters. You are supposed to be there to serve Christ and His Church, not make friends. Being friendly, is one thing, but forming a clique or group of friends is not allowed. I understand this because if you get too chummy with someone, it could interfere with your duties and vows as a religious. Hope this makes sense.

[dominicansoul]

actually, it does happen somewhat, but its hard to describe... there is a supernatural bond between you and your sisters, and Christ is definitely in the center of it all.....

[dominicansoul]

you just cannot have "particular" friendships... no one sister should be the object of all your friendliness... you hafta "spread the love" even when you find others not so friendly...

[Lilllabettt]

A lot of Sisters have "close" friendships, even "particular" friendships. The difference is that these "particular" relationships can't be exclusive.

When a woman gets married, she finds her vocation in loving her husband especially much, in preferring him to every other person on earth. And she herself is chosen, loved especially much, preferred to all others.

Religious do not get - that wonderful experience of being chosen. Of being preferred. That is the sacrifice.

[das8949]

I am glad that Sister Marie felt the desire to post her latest posts. It is a subject that both Faith and I tried to breach several months ago. I experienced some disappointments when I entered because I was looking for a "family" and love that comes from relationship. I was not mature enough to be able to function in community due to my "neediness" The pain and disappointment that comes from this is something I would truly like to shelter others from having to experience. To have a dream for years and then to realize that this dream was not based on pure intentions but also some selfish motivation is heartbreaking. Fortunately I realized this early enough that I did not bring any harm to others and was able to get the help I needed to move forward in my life.


'

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323381320' post='2347530']
actually, it does happen somewhat, but its hard to describe... there is a supernatural bond between you and your sisters, and Christ is definitely in the center of it all.....
[/quote]


A relationship certainly does happen but not the one that joyful described. There are many sisters I consider my friends and with whom I can share spiritual struggles and blessings and everyday laughter and sadness. But there is a difference between [i]sharing[/i] with someone and [i]relying [/i]upon them for that interaction. In religious life, we rely upon God... yes we interact with and love our sisters but [i]no [/i]sister can be the one who fulfills [i]any [/i]need within us.

It isn't fair to the sister we are expecting this relationship from and it isn't fair to God. That sister needs to be given the support to grow in her relationship with God - not with me. As sisters, chastity is dependent upon leaving a part of yourself [i]untouched [/i]in a spiritual way. If you need someone else to fill up every space - every doubt, insecurity, desire... then you are not living with a heart that belongs only to God. You are filling yourself up instead of emptying yourself out - to God, community, and the people you serve.

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323381498' post='2347531']
you just cannot have "particular" friendships... no one sister should be the object of all your friendliness... you hafta "spread the love" even when you find others not so friendly...
[/quote]

That is really just the very tip of a big iceberg about community living. As I said earlier, I can't give an entire response on community living in one post on the internet but I am glad to keep the dialogue going to clear up some misconceptions if anyone would like me too.
----
However, I am aware that what I am saying is probably not a popular thing because it is much easier to dream about the habits, prayers, recreations, feast days, liturgies, and all the other beautiful things about religious life. I'm not knocking talking about it - I think that is fine and it is fun sometimes! They have their place in discernment and they are tools for our holiness - but - they are very little in the lived reality of religious life.

I would love to continue this conversation but I won't unless there is some desire on the part of others on phatmass to do so as well. Community is one of the big three of religious life and I think it deserves some serious consideration too.


[quote name='DarleneSteinemann' timestamp='1323381721' post='2347534']
I am glad that Sister Marie felt the desire to post her latest posts. It is a subject that both Faith and I tried to breach several months ago. I experienced some disappointments when I entered because I was looking for a "family" and love that comes from relationship. I was not mature enough to be able to function in community due to my "neediness" The pain and disappointment that comes from this is something I would truly like to shelter others from having to experience. To have a dream for years and then to realize that this dream was not based on pure intentions but also some selfish motivation is heartbreaking. Fortunately I realized this early enough that I did not bring any harm to others and was able to get the help I needed to move forward in my life.
[/quote]

Darlene, thank you for your very compassionate and open example of the difficulty and pain that comes from entering religious life with expectations that could not be fulfilled. I too entered with some expectations that were not appropriate and the results were not wonderful! The reason I am saying these things is to try to challenge a little bit so that others don't have to experience the great difficulty that they will if they go into religious life thinking this way.

[Lisa]

Sister, your answers are very helpful to those of us discerning. Would you mind if I started a thread to ask you questions (or if any other Sisters on here wanted to answer), particularly about community life and day-to-day stuff?

We completely understand that you might not be able to answer right away.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Lisa

[Sister Marie]

I would be glad to do that.

As a side note... I am an apostolic religious so I am speaking from that perspective - not a monastic one. Because I'm an apostolic religious though - I will usually have the time to answer because it is part of my charism to be around for others.

[Discipulus]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323389462' post='2347590'] I am aware that what I am saying is probably not a popular thing because it is much easier to dream about the habits, prayers, recreations, feast days, liturgies, and all the other beautiful things about religious life. I'm not knocking talking about it - I think that is fine and it is fun sometimes! They have their place in discernment and they are tools for our holiness - but - they are very little in the lived reality of religious life.

---

I too entered with some expectations that were not appropriate and the results were not wonderful! The reason I am saying these things is to try to challenge a little bit so that others don't have to experience the great difficulty that they will if they go into religious life thinking this way.
[/quote]

Sister, I wonder if you would agree with a sentiment I've often heard expressed by more experienced religious, that those of us who [u]enter[/u] religious life often do so for particular reasons, some of which may be a little naive or immature or even selfish; but that those of us who [u]stay[/u] in religious life ultimately do so for different reasons, because when we've come to understand fully the inappropriate nature of those things that led to us to enter in the first place, we're finally ready to learn why God has, in truth, called us to this particular place.

In my own life I've seen this happening to me, not without pain and regret, as I came to realise that my initial religious formation had been a process whereby my illusions and desires were stripped away from me; and its only really now that I'm properly discerning the call that's been offered to me, without the comforts and assumptions that I thought I might find within it. As I say, not easy and not welcome: but necessary, and perhaps a great opportunity for grace to enter in, if we can stay on the path laid out before us.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Discipulus' timestamp='1323391533' post='2347603']

Sister, I wonder if you would agree with a sentiment I've often heard expressed by more experienced religious, that those of us who [u]enter[/u] religious life often do so for particular reasons, some of which may be a little naive or immature or even selfish; but that those of us who [u]stay[/u] in religious life ultimately do so for different reasons, because when we've come to understand fully the inappropriate nature of those things that led to us to enter in the first place, we're finally ready to learn why God has, in truth, called us to this particular place.

In my own life I've seen this happening to me, not without pain and regret, as I came to realise that my initial religious formation had been a process whereby my illusions and desires were stripped away from me; and its only really now that I'm properly discerning the call that's been offered to me, without the comforts and assumptions that I thought I might find within it. As I say, not easy and not welcome: but necessary, and perhaps a great opportunity for grace to enter in, if we can stay on the path laid out before us.
[/quote]

I agree completely with what you said. All of us enter with some illusions... I did... and it really hurt to have them taken away but it was a process of purification and when they were gone I was left knowing that I was here for Him and for no other reason. It is an incredible opportunity for grace to abound and to truly transform one into Christ. I now thank God for the pain of losing those illusions because once they were gone I was free to really love Him and to be the woman He called me to be.

If I may ask, are you in religious life now or discerning or in formation...?

[Discipulus]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323391891' post='2347607']
If I may ask, are you in religious life now or discerning or in formation...?
[/quote]

You [u]may[/u] ask, and I [u]will[/u] answer!

I'm in my fourth year of simple vows in the UK province of my order.

Prayers and best wishes to you.

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323365626' post='2347389']

I'm not sure if this all makes sense and I'm trying to think of a good example to illustrate what I mean... I write this because I don't want women to enter communities with expectations that are unrealistic or with motives that won't be fulfilled in religious life. I'm not trying to be dramatic but religious life is austere and it is a call to death so that we can try to live the relationship with God that we will have in eternal life. There are sisters who will be kind and who will help you and who will truly love you... but they must also offer that in the same way to the other sisters around them. In religious life, there are saints and saint makers... [b]women who are incredibly holy and the rest of us who are trying and possibly failing - we succeed by clinging to Christ... not to any human relationship. They can help us but they are not the ones that save us.[/b]
[/quote]
[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1323367991' post='2347425'].

Part of being mature in Christ is the humility to accept our limitations in trust and obedience.
[/quote]


Yes, all of the above, but especially these things...Thank you all for your posts on this topic.

Oh & to the newbies on VS!