Determining That Someone Isn't Called?

[dominicansoul]

you just cannot have "particular" friendships... no one sister should be the object of all your friendliness... you hafta "spread the love" even when you find others not so friendly...

[Lilllabettt]

A lot of Sisters have "close" friendships, even "particular" friendships. The difference is that these "particular" relationships can't be exclusive.

When a woman gets married, she finds her vocation in loving her husband especially much, in preferring him to every other person on earth. And she herself is chosen, loved especially much, preferred to all others.

Religious do not get - that wonderful experience of being chosen. Of being preferred. That is the sacrifice.

[das8949]

I am glad that Sister Marie felt the desire to post her latest posts. It is a subject that both Faith and I tried to breach several months ago. I experienced some disappointments when I entered because I was looking for a "family" and love that comes from relationship. I was not mature enough to be able to function in community due to my "neediness" The pain and disappointment that comes from this is something I would truly like to shelter others from having to experience. To have a dream for years and then to realize that this dream was not based on pure intentions but also some selfish motivation is heartbreaking. Fortunately I realized this early enough that I did not bring any harm to others and was able to get the help I needed to move forward in my life.


'

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323381320' post='2347530']
actually, it does happen somewhat, but its hard to describe... there is a supernatural bond between you and your sisters, and Christ is definitely in the center of it all.....
[/quote]


A relationship certainly does happen but not the one that joyful described. There are many sisters I consider my friends and with whom I can share spiritual struggles and blessings and everyday laughter and sadness. But there is a difference between [i]sharing[/i] with someone and [i]relying [/i]upon them for that interaction. In religious life, we rely upon God... yes we interact with and love our sisters but [i]no [/i]sister can be the one who fulfills [i]any [/i]need within us.

It isn't fair to the sister we are expecting this relationship from and it isn't fair to God. That sister needs to be given the support to grow in her relationship with God - not with me. As sisters, chastity is dependent upon leaving a part of yourself [i]untouched [/i]in a spiritual way. If you need someone else to fill up every space - every doubt, insecurity, desire... then you are not living with a heart that belongs only to God. You are filling yourself up instead of emptying yourself out - to God, community, and the people you serve.

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1323381498' post='2347531']
you just cannot have "particular" friendships... no one sister should be the object of all your friendliness... you hafta "spread the love" even when you find others not so friendly...
[/quote]

That is really just the very tip of a big iceberg about community living. As I said earlier, I can't give an entire response on community living in one post on the internet but I am glad to keep the dialogue going to clear up some misconceptions if anyone would like me too.
----
However, I am aware that what I am saying is probably not a popular thing because it is much easier to dream about the habits, prayers, recreations, feast days, liturgies, and all the other beautiful things about religious life. I'm not knocking talking about it - I think that is fine and it is fun sometimes! They have their place in discernment and they are tools for our holiness - but - they are very little in the lived reality of religious life.

I would love to continue this conversation but I won't unless there is some desire on the part of others on phatmass to do so as well. Community is one of the big three of religious life and I think it deserves some serious consideration too.


[quote name='DarleneSteinemann' timestamp='1323381721' post='2347534']
I am glad that Sister Marie felt the desire to post her latest posts. It is a subject that both Faith and I tried to breach several months ago. I experienced some disappointments when I entered because I was looking for a "family" and love that comes from relationship. I was not mature enough to be able to function in community due to my "neediness" The pain and disappointment that comes from this is something I would truly like to shelter others from having to experience. To have a dream for years and then to realize that this dream was not based on pure intentions but also some selfish motivation is heartbreaking. Fortunately I realized this early enough that I did not bring any harm to others and was able to get the help I needed to move forward in my life.
[/quote]

Darlene, thank you for your very compassionate and open example of the difficulty and pain that comes from entering religious life with expectations that could not be fulfilled. I too entered with some expectations that were not appropriate and the results were not wonderful! The reason I am saying these things is to try to challenge a little bit so that others don't have to experience the great difficulty that they will if they go into religious life thinking this way.

[Lisa]

Sister, your answers are very helpful to those of us discerning. Would you mind if I started a thread to ask you questions (or if any other Sisters on here wanted to answer), particularly about community life and day-to-day stuff?

We completely understand that you might not be able to answer right away.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Lisa

[Sister Marie]

I would be glad to do that.

As a side note... I am an apostolic religious so I am speaking from that perspective - not a monastic one. Because I'm an apostolic religious though - I will usually have the time to answer because it is part of my charism to be around for others.

[Discipulus]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323389462' post='2347590'] I am aware that what I am saying is probably not a popular thing because it is much easier to dream about the habits, prayers, recreations, feast days, liturgies, and all the other beautiful things about religious life. I'm not knocking talking about it - I think that is fine and it is fun sometimes! They have their place in discernment and they are tools for our holiness - but - they are very little in the lived reality of religious life.

---

I too entered with some expectations that were not appropriate and the results were not wonderful! The reason I am saying these things is to try to challenge a little bit so that others don't have to experience the great difficulty that they will if they go into religious life thinking this way.
[/quote]

Sister, I wonder if you would agree with a sentiment I've often heard expressed by more experienced religious, that those of us who [u]enter[/u] religious life often do so for particular reasons, some of which may be a little naive or immature or even selfish; but that those of us who [u]stay[/u] in religious life ultimately do so for different reasons, because when we've come to understand fully the inappropriate nature of those things that led to us to enter in the first place, we're finally ready to learn why God has, in truth, called us to this particular place.

In my own life I've seen this happening to me, not without pain and regret, as I came to realise that my initial religious formation had been a process whereby my illusions and desires were stripped away from me; and its only really now that I'm properly discerning the call that's been offered to me, without the comforts and assumptions that I thought I might find within it. As I say, not easy and not welcome: but necessary, and perhaps a great opportunity for grace to enter in, if we can stay on the path laid out before us.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Discipulus' timestamp='1323391533' post='2347603']

Sister, I wonder if you would agree with a sentiment I've often heard expressed by more experienced religious, that those of us who [u]enter[/u] religious life often do so for particular reasons, some of which may be a little naive or immature or even selfish; but that those of us who [u]stay[/u] in religious life ultimately do so for different reasons, because when we've come to understand fully the inappropriate nature of those things that led to us to enter in the first place, we're finally ready to learn why God has, in truth, called us to this particular place.

In my own life I've seen this happening to me, not without pain and regret, as I came to realise that my initial religious formation had been a process whereby my illusions and desires were stripped away from me; and its only really now that I'm properly discerning the call that's been offered to me, without the comforts and assumptions that I thought I might find within it. As I say, not easy and not welcome: but necessary, and perhaps a great opportunity for grace to enter in, if we can stay on the path laid out before us.
[/quote]

I agree completely with what you said. All of us enter with some illusions... I did... and it really hurt to have them taken away but it was a process of purification and when they were gone I was left knowing that I was here for Him and for no other reason. It is an incredible opportunity for grace to abound and to truly transform one into Christ. I now thank God for the pain of losing those illusions because once they were gone I was free to really love Him and to be the woman He called me to be.

If I may ask, are you in religious life now or discerning or in formation...?

[Discipulus]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323391891' post='2347607']
If I may ask, are you in religious life now or discerning or in formation...?
[/quote]

You [u]may[/u] ask, and I [u]will[/u] answer!

I'm in my fourth year of simple vows in the UK province of my order.

Prayers and best wishes to you.

[brandelynmarie]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1323365626' post='2347389']

I'm not sure if this all makes sense and I'm trying to think of a good example to illustrate what I mean... I write this because I don't want women to enter communities with expectations that are unrealistic or with motives that won't be fulfilled in religious life. I'm not trying to be dramatic but religious life is austere and it is a call to death so that we can try to live the relationship with God that we will have in eternal life. There are sisters who will be kind and who will help you and who will truly love you... but they must also offer that in the same way to the other sisters around them. In religious life, there are saints and saint makers... [b]women who are incredibly holy and the rest of us who are trying and possibly failing - we succeed by clinging to Christ... not to any human relationship. They can help us but they are not the ones that save us.[/b]
[/quote]
[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1323367991' post='2347425'].

Part of being mature in Christ is the humility to accept our limitations in trust and obedience.
[/quote]


Yes, all of the above, but especially these things...Thank you all for your posts on this topic.

Oh & to the newbies on VS!

[Antigonos]

Reading the above posts, especially by Sister Marie and Darlene and Discipulus, I am struck, not for the first time, by the paradox inherent in the age limit imposed by so many communities. While I can understand that the conventual life needs fit persons who are still young enough to be molded, and that a community vowed to poverty can have real difficulties with elderly and/or sick sisters, it seems to me that such wisdom [and experience of life] is rarely found in the very young. Looking at myself, an Old Trout of 65, and not in the best health, either, I know that I can deal with interpersonal issues much better now than 30 years ago. If I were Catholic, which I'm not, I would find it very discouraging that so few communities would be willing to even consider someone such as I, especially as I think that in many ways my life experience would be valuable in a community setting.

At times I too think that discerners seem to be rather excessively focussed on "externals" such as the habit, etc. but after all, their formation hasn't begun. I remember who I was when I entered nursing school in the mid 60s -- and how much I had changed in unexpected ways, by the time I graduated. The excitement about being capped! First time on the wards! And the realization, which brought us down to earth with a thud, that our scientific educations were going to tax our little brains to the utmost [several of my classmates dropped out because of that], as well as learning that one doesn't dare put a DC plug into an AC socket. Hunting for the right electric socket seemed to take an inordinate amount of my time, and it never seemed to have happened to Sue Barton or Cherry Ames! Being the only child of elderly parents, I never knew how to communicate with patients in emotional situations, while my classmates seemed to find it easy. It took me years to develop that skill, but I had never thought about it before entering nursing. And so on. I imagine that formation must be somewhat comparable. The non-essentials get stripped away while the essentials are strengthened -- only the person being formed usually doesn't know, ahead of time, how she'll turn out in the end.

Rather scary, that, I should think!

[Lisa]

That is a beautiful reflection. Thank you!

[AnneLine]

I am really awed by the depth of this thread, and I thank ALL of your for sharing.

Antigonos, I think it is fantastic to have someone who is not Catholic in on this discussion. You write with respect, and you add a wonderful 'distance' perspective and can say what many of us are thinking and aren't sure how to say it! My mom (who had been in the WWII Marines) was able to give me many insights into religious life from her experience in boot camp and in the military... different, but a good parallel.

The age thing -- I don't criticize the communities that have them (and I think many will be a little flexibile for a candidate who looks to be called) but I think sometimes they do cut out people at exactly the time they would bring great wisdom and depth-of-experience to the community. For some, that is outweighed by the need to 'form' people.... and it is harder to adjust to community as one gets older. (Heck, it is harder to genuflect as one gets older! But... if the vocation is there I think God will give the graces to person and community.

And... when the right fit between person and community appears, that is what the vocation looks like.

Really have valued the discussion of Sister Marie and Darlene and Discipulus. I want to get into this discussion, but just don't have time right now... .busy day ahead of me!! But I am praying for you and hope to get into it over the weekend!

Blessings....

Edited December 9, 2011 by AnneLine

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323456925' post='2348123']
Reading the above posts, especially by Sister Marie and Darlene and Discipulus, I am struck, not for the first time, by the paradox inherent in the age limit imposed by so many communities. While I can understand that the conventual life needs fit persons who are still young enough to be molded, and that a community vowed to poverty can have real difficulties with elderly and/or sick sisters, it seems to me that such wisdom [and experience of life] is rarely found in the very young. Looking at myself, an Old Trout of 65, and not in the best health, either, I know that I can deal with interpersonal issues much better now than 30 years ago. If I were Catholic, which I'm not, I would find it very discouraging that so few communities would be willing to even consider someone such as I, especially as I think that in many ways my life experience would be valuable in a community setting.
[/quote]

I can definitely see what you mean and I think you definitely have picked up on a paradox that does exist. One thing I would like to add to your reflection is that maturity very rarely has something to do with age. It does have to do with experience and how we learn from it. I get the feeling from your post that you would be surprised to know that I am only 24. I definitely don't know everything or even a majority of things but I am willing to have new experiences and do the hard work of integrating them with my identity as a religious woman - I'm sure there are older women who would be able to do the same thing.


[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323456925' post='2348123']
I imagine that formation must be somewhat comparable. The non-essentials get stripped away while the essentials are strengthened -- only the person being formed usually doesn't know, ahead of time, how she'll turn out in the end.
[/quote]

That is one of the best descriptions of formation I have ever heard... I'm definitely going to pray on that one as I reflect on my own formation - and continuing formation of a lifetime.


[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323456925' post='2348123']
While I can understand that the conventual life needs fit persons who are still young enough to be molded, and that a community vowed to poverty can have real difficulties with elderly and/or sick sisters, it seems to me that such wisdom [and experience of life] is rarely found in the very young. Looking at myself, an Old Trout of 65, and not in the best health, either, I know that I can deal with interpersonal issues much better now than 30 years ago. If I were Catholic, which I'm not, I would find it very discouraging that so few communities would be willing to even consider someone such as I, especially as I think that in many ways my life experience would be valuable in a community setting.
[/quote]

There are other considerations with the whole age discussion that are often not looked at. For instance, if a woman is looking to enter a community that has an apostolate of education or nursing or social work - they are going to need to have a great deal of education in order to participate fully in the charism and mission of that community. That education costs a lot of money and requires a lot of stamina. A lot of apostolic communities would, rightfully, be wary of paying for an education that would only be in practice for a short amount of time in someone who is much older. I know in my community if you are studying... you are usually working full time as well... and being full time in community... and full time in prayer... It's just another perspective on the whole age thing.

[Discipulus]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323456925' post='2348123'] I would find it very discouraging that so few communities would be willing to even consider someone such as I, especially as I think that in many ways my life experience would be valuable in a community setting.[/quote]

I think this often is a problem, but there are pros and cons both to being younger or being older when entering religious life. The young have energy and many years to offer; older people have experience and more greatly developed skills. Both can be great gifts to a community, and often a mixture of ages is what brings about the best results.

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323456925' post='2348123'] I remember who I was when I entered nursing school in the mid 60s -- and how much I had changed in unexpected ways, by the time I graduated.
---
I imagine that formation must be somewhat comparable. The non-essentials get stripped away while the essentials are strengthened -- only the person being formed usually doesn't know, ahead of time, how she'll turn out in the end.[/quote]

i was a nurse for 20 years before entering religious life (yes, i'm quite old!) and I think you're quite right with this analogy, which acknowledges many similarities between religious and professional formation; and I know from talking to married friends that both matrimony and parenthood engage people in similar and profoundly challenging processes of gains and losses as the new role is adopted and becomes more familiar. Seeking this kind of growth and maturity is what life is all about, isn't it?

This embodies what is to me a very important point about religious life, that sometimes is missed both by people who have only ever known the consecrated existence and also by younger people coming to it fresh out of the education system or after only a few years of employment: that although yes, religious life is different from other states, it also shares in common with them many elements such as rites of passage, learning through mistakes, personal development and undergoing the necessary education, and external signs and symbols that are often seen as an end in and of themselves rather than as indicators of deeper truths and realities. Being a religious is not so different to other forms of life that we should over-indulge our sense of apartness from other people - nor is it something we're called to because we're inherently different to others. Often we're called because we're available, and because we're willing.

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1323456925' post='2348123']Rather scary, that, I should think!
[/quote]

Oh yes! But I think that our walking with God is always about letting go of fear, most especially the fears of being hurt or of being abandoned. We journey in darkness towards a destination that we cannot see, but are held by the hand and are slowly led towards that destination - if we can overcome the temptation to pull away from the one who guides us, either to run towards or to run away from the end point of our journey. The willingness to stay with our guide and walk at the pace they choose for us should be the obvious choice, but often it isn't easy to trust them; and that choice has to be made every day of our life, because the final destination won't be reached this side of the grave.