Don't Start Threads Focusing On Marriage In Here.

[maximillion]

Thanks for that dUSt, I was a little upset/confused, but this clarifies nicely.

[StClare_OraProNobis]

ye-owch! I think that the people who have posted here on VS regarding marriage as a vocation usually have been people trying to sort out their own vocational calling when they have come up against road blocks in pursuing religious life. It seems a little harsh to suddenly exclude them from the friends they have made on VS with a "You are not called to religious life and therefore we do not want you to post here."

It can be very painful to desire religious life and not be able to live out that vocation. Especially when well-meaning people insist on emphasizing that marriage is a "lesser" vocation. I personally had to leave the convent due to some mental health issues and this was very painful. I actually don't think I have a vocation to marriage, but I can still see how someone who ran up against a "no" to religious life might feel really crummy about this if they think they may have a calling to marriage instead.

Maybe I am totally off base here, but I just think that being sensitive to those who have posted here and have formed relationships on VS and then discovered that they don't have a religious vocation might be important.

[Lil Red]

Well-meaning people like the Pope?

[StClare_OraProNobis]

There is a difference between agreeing that celibacy is a higher calling, which it is, and knowing when it is appropriate to emphasize that fact and when a more gentle approach might be more appropriate.

The truth needs to be given with sensitivity.

[AnneLine]

Hmmmm....

I can see your point, dUSt, and I totally will abide by what you & the mods ultimately decide.... but I think this is worthy of some discussion and definitely for some prayerful thought about what the Holy Spirit is saying here.

For example, what about.... Secular Order vocations?

dUSt, I know you want to keep the VS label for priestly & religious vocations, and I understand the point you are making about objectively a vocation to CONSECRATED religious life being a different and higher thing from marriage. I do remember discerning when there wasn't anything like this, and this is a very helpful venue for those looking into consecrated life….

However… what you are describing is more akin to a 'Consecrated Nation' forum rather than a 'Vocation Station' one…..

I also think that VS has been much healthier and more helpful for discerners because of the wider focus…. Especially for the younger members and/or those who have been searching and not finding the right fit. We totally ARE encouraging vocations.... but the wider focus can help some people from missing their true VOCATION because they have only heard of one or two options …when God has something VERY different in mind… in my opinion, our highest and best vocation is listening to what God wants and doing it with all our hearts….

I've heard it said that the Carmelite NUNS say that you can't know if you have a vocation to the Carmelites until you know if you have a vocation to a particular house. Because each Carmel is different. I suspect that is true for many if not all religious orders and communities. And I know it is totally true for vocations to a Secular Order… we are very much considered members of our respective Orders.....

I think that this discussion belongs in VS because sometimes someone knows they have a vocation to a particular spirituality (Dominican, Franciscan, Carmelite, Benedictine....etc.) but doesn't know if they have a vocation to the monks or friars (1st Order), cloistered Nuns (2nd Order), Active Apostolic and/or Contemplative Apostolic (3rd Order Regular Religious life) or Secular Order (3rd Order Secular/Laity/Oblates/Cooperators, etc.). Or to one of the more modern communities that isn't based off a religious family tradition. Or just a call to learn for the saints of a partiular spirituality without any formal affiliation!!!! Obviously it is easy to discern if you are a male or female candidate for religious life (which limits some options!) but the rest is really tricky!

Seems to me that VS is about discerning and following Vocations. That's why, in my opinion, it really does make some sense to have this discussion and the slightly wider focus in Vocation Station - or at least to have it somehow cross posted. It has been very interesting to me watching people's eyes open up on what God does want for them by seeing the wider focus. A lot of healing and spiritual growth is taking place. I think there are several people who have had much healthier discernments because of this larger view, especially in the wake of a turn-down. For those who haven't been there, discernment and especially a turn down can be REALLY tough… and it helps to be able to see the wider picture, and for those for whom the answer is 'no' to a religious vocation, to realize that God does have a plan for them…. And that there are MANY options…

Again, totally will respectfully abide by the wishes of dUSt and the mods…. But I would be curious to know what the board users would find helpful, too. What would help you in your discernment?

Perhaps ... could the the Holy Spirit be prompting a new category?

A practical question based on this….

I'm about to put together info about vocations to Secular Orders...promised to do this for the VS crowd before Christmas and haven't had a chance... hoping to get it put together within the next week. I just want it to find its discerning 'audience' (as in 'vocare', btw….). I had been asked to put it under 'Lay Vocations' thread in this forum..... I'd planned to shoot a flare up in Open Mike as well…. (yes, I do hang out in both, but this really seems to belong in VS.) Am I supposed to flare it here and post it there? If so, any objection if from time to time I flare it in VS? I don't want to poach any would be priests/nuns/sisters, but as has been pointed out, not everyone checks both boards... and in my opinion, that's unfortunate. They are different.

Ironically in my Secular community we spend a TON of our time trying to get through to potential candidates that you need a VOCATION to make it in a Secular/Lay Order... because it really is a VOCATION. Just wanting it isn't enough. You need the call. It is not like sodality, or Legion of Mary, etc.

Love you all…. And I will keep looking in on these threads and promoting priestly, nunly and sisterly vocations…. Once we figure out where some of these other threads belong, I hope they will encourage those who are in need to check out the other options for those called elsewhere…. Once we figure out where that will be!

Edited December 28, 2011 by AnneLine

[Guest hermanita]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1325094229' post='2358596']
sorry but 'exclusivity' is already on VS. many VS'ers tend to exclude themselves from the rest of the phorums....
[/quote]
[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1325094333' post='2358597']
OK, once again, my lack of communication skills has gotten me in trouble.

I have changed the name of this thread from "Don't talk about marriage in here" to[b] "Don't start threads focusing on marriage in here."[/b]

I assumed you guys would know that you could still talk about marriage when discussing religious vocations (because it would be impossible not to). I just didn't want there to be threads that were started that focus on marriage. What I want to avoid is the thought that a vocation to marriage is somehow equal to a religious vocation--it is not. A vocation to the religious life is superior. That's all. Talk about marriage--that's fine. But if you want to focus on marriage as a vocation, start a thread in Open Mic or the Raising Small Humans board.
[/quote]

Hi Phriends,

Gone for a week and seem to have missed alot. I certainly missed VS as I navigated being "out" as a possible future religious with my extended family and old friends; most of whom were at my wedding and shared the joy and loss of my marriage.

I agree with Red. And I take dUST's points about the focus of this board. So just as the vocation to religious life is rooted in Baptism and lived in and through the Church, so VS is certainly rooted and shared in the greater Phatmass Phamily. At least for me. Don't know what I'd do without my homies on the lame side. I don't live in a very Catholic part of the world. So grateful for you all.

hermanita ..truly your little sister

[MargaretTeresa]

I would like to point out that while it seems that many of us only post (or mostly post) in Vocation Station does not mean we don't read other phorums. I know I have topics I like to read but if I don't have anything meaningful or helpful to add to the conversation, I won't post.

I must agree with dUSt - the phocus here is vocation to religious life. While I occasionally post about how God has thrown a guy in my path (see my post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/117604-bam/page__fromsearch__1"]BAM[/url]), if you look it's about my discernment of religious life.

I can also see why dUSt says Open Mic is there for marriage and why Lil Red also brings up the Raising Small Humans phorum. Topics there are seen and commented on by the larger population of Phatmass (especially when it comes to Open Mic). While some of us VS peeps do venture out, there are many who stick here as well.

Just putting in my two cents.

Merry Christmas.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1325089755' post='2358543']
As the small print states 'it's a party for all you priest and nun wannabes', I guess that's me out too. I'm joining a secular institute.

I will continue to read the phorum occasionally and to pray for you all.
[/quote]

I do think that VS should cover the possibility of vocations to secular institutes. Because it is a (maybe not a higher but nonetheless) calling. There are Church documents that discuss this newer possibility.

I do agree with taking the posts focusing on marriage out of VS and putting it in a different board (I love the idea of RSH ... since I will assume those seriously considering marriage are probably over 18).

I agree with Red -- I for one do post elsewhere, but for example I rarely if ever go over to RSH. I'm not married, I won't be married, and I do not and (unless I really royally mess up) will not have children. So ... why would I go over to RSH? I stay out of debate table because it always leads to trouble and to my blood pressure rising to extremely dangerous levels. I sometimes wander to transmundane. And the lame boards.

Finally I love VS for one reason ... around me, there are very few women (either young or my age) who are not seeking marriage, but are seeking to serve the Church via religious life (or other choices such as secular institutes or 3rd orders). This forum is a source of encouragement.

[AnneLine]

Out of props, or I would prop Cmdiaz' and MargaretTeresa's posts.

I also don't have small humans, only because God didn't choose to send me any... so it would NEVER occur to me to go to Rasing Small Humans. Actually I looked around once and realized it was NOT where I belonged. Debate Table doesn't do anything for me.... and I do spend some time in the Prayer, Lame and Open Boards.... and like the people there.... but there is a discerning community here that just fits what God has me do for Him better.....

Lots of history in the Church of men & women without religious vocations who are called to foster them..... maybe we are foster families raising up not-so-small humans with vocations?

Gotta get away from the computer for a few hours now... will be curious to see where this discussion this goes..... thanks for letting us talk this out, dUSt!

Edited December 28, 2011 by AnneLine

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

I agree with dUST, actually. I have a question, though. Would one who is too young to post in RSH just post in Open Mic? I think it would be un-wise to unlock RSH for marriage talk with younger members.
I have to admit that "Consecration Nation" is a pretty razzle dazzle name to avoid misconceptions. Although, I don't think there were misconceptions, as the fine print says what this forum is for.

[AnneLine]

Maybe I am mistaken... but I think people under 18 can neither read nor post in Raising Small Humans..... unless they lie about their ages. Many discerners wouldn't have access unless they fudged their ages. Am I correct?

Now I REALLY have to get away from the computer.... need to get to a gov't agency this afternoon!

Edited December 28, 2011 by AnneLine

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1325106887' post='2358681']
Maybe I am mistaken... but I think people under 18 can neither read nor post in Raising Small Humans..... unless they lie about their ages. Many discerners wouldn't have access unless they fudged their ages. Am I correct?

Now I REALLY have to get away from the computer.... need to get to a gov't agency this afternoon!
[/quote]

Yes, thats true.

My personal opinion is that of someone is old enough to be discerning their vocation, and at the point of choosing to give up the beauty of a sexual relationship with their spouse and procreation, then they are old enough to read of such. If the general feeling truely is that that is not the case, then maybe we should also have an age limit on VS? Accepting the spousal union with Christ alone in religious life requires an understanding of sex and sexuality.

[StClare_OraProNobis]

I just want to say that I personally am really proud of the people who have come here thinking that their vocation is religious life and then have become more open to other vocations as God has led them in their discernment. I think it shows great maturity and an open heart to the Holy Spirit, and in some cases even heroic acceptance of the Will of God which might not be what the person would have preferred themselves.

[MithLuin]

I understand why [b]dUSt[/b] has asked us to stay on point here. I think that discussing marriage is inevitable (in life, but yes, also in this forum), and there is not any problem with that as it naturally arises. I don't think it will hurt VS in any way to leave off starting new threads specifically about married life. If you want to know what it's like to live out a Catholic marriage, I agree that the wider audience in Open Mic is the place to go.

Now, what phatmass [i]needs[/i] is a Matchmaking phorum for all those single posters who don't desire to pursue religious life [i]or[/i] remain single .

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325107210' post='2358687']
Yes, thats true.

My personal opinion is that of someone is old enough to be discerning their vocation, and at the point of choosing to give up the beauty of a sexual relationship with their spouse and procreation, then they are old enough to read of such. If the general feeling truely is that that is not the case, then maybe we should also have an age limit on VS? Accepting the spousal union with Christ alone in religious life requires an understanding of sex and sexuality.
[/quote]
Okay, no age limit on VS. I'm 13 and I will not leave VS! I do agree with what Faith says about people understanding the beauty of the marital act being allowed to read it. I probably would not go on there if it were unlocked, just out of choice for myself.
By the way, there is nothing EVER posted in VS as long as I have been here about sex, and anyone is old enough to discern their vocation. Period.

Edited December 28, 2011 by FutureCarmeliteClaire

[savvy]

[quote]Well-meaning people like the Pope? [/quote]

He is biased because he loves his life

There are similarities between religious life and marriage. They both require commitment, work, compromise.

The differences are that rl is the road less travelled and one cannot have favourite people, except for God.

Edited December 28, 2011 by savvy

[MissScripture]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1325108200' post='2358696']
I understand why [b]dUSt[/b] has asked us to stay on point here. I think that discussing marriage is inevitable (in life, but yes, also in this forum), and there is not any problem with that as it naturally arises. I don't think it will hurt VS in any way to leave off starting new threads specifically about married life. If you want to know what it's like to live out a Catholic marriage, I agree that the wider audience in Open Mic is the place to go.

Now, what phatmass [i]needs[/i] is a Matchmaking phorum for all those single posters who don't desire to pursue religious life [i]or[/i] remain single .
[/quote]
My matchmaking phorum was the lame board.

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1325108200' post='2358696']
I understand why [b]dUSt[/b] has asked us to stay on point here. I think that discussing marriage is inevitable (in life, but yes, also in this forum), and there is not any problem with that as it naturally arises. I don't think it will hurt VS in any way to leave off starting new threads specifically about married life. If you want to know what it's like to live out a Catholic marriage, I agree that the wider audience in Open Mic is the place to go.

Now, what phatmass [i]needs[/i] is a Matchmaking phorum for all those single posters who don't desire to pursue religious life [i]or[/i] remain single .
[/quote]
Totally sums up my thoughts on the whole thing.

Remember people, dUST is the Pope of Phatmass, so it really doesn't matter what we think

[Cherie]

I post often in VS because I was a religious for five years and discerned religious life much longer than that. I worked extensively with the Vocation Directress of my former community. I have learned a lot while I was there and am glad to share what little knowledge I have gained with those discerning, because I love the life, do all I can to encourage it, and have been there before.

That being said, I am now a married woman. It was a vocational decision, not something I just wandered into.

I think it's general knowledge that VS is more geared toward consecrated life. But I see many benefits in discussing the topic of marriage every now and then, and that includes starting a topic on it now and then. When I was seriously discerning religious life, at one point in my discernment, the question of my attraction to marriage came up daily. It was a choice I had to make, guided by prayer, discernment, and spiritual direction. I think it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for those discerning to understand the vocation of marriage in discerning their call from God, for countless reasons.

I understand dUSt, where you are coming from, but I think the recent surge in threads in VS on marriage is simply the result of a few members taking a turn in their vocational discernment. It is by no means a permanent trend, and as someone who has been part of discerning religious life, being in religious life, then discerning marriage and becoming married, I think it is innocuous, if not very beneficial, for the VS audience.

I personally don't think Open Mic is necessarily the best place for folks to ask serious questions on marriage. RSH might be a good place, but it still might not be the right place for someone still open to religious life, yet wondering if marriage is their possible calling (a "dilemma" the majority of discerners encounter at some point.)

These are just my humble opinions.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325090050' post='2358547']
I thought this thread was a joke. Unfortunately I'm wrong...
[/quote]
[quote name='Totus Tuus' timestamp='1325090632' post='2358555']
I understood the post and I have no intention of not posting in here anymore. I was in religious life so I actually have some things to say that dUST would want me to say. However, I don't think it's right to call a forum "vocation station" and not really have it be a vocation place, but a place to talk about one specific vocation. That's misleading, and most people probably don't read the fine print. Second of all, the amount of talk in here about marriage is probably less than 10% of the total conversation, and usually it's initiated by someone who's discerning religious life and wants to know about other vocations. I was starting to think that VS was becoming a healthier place by becoming slightly more focused on the fact that there is more than one vocation for people to choose, but apparently that was never the direction this forum was meant to go in. So where's the forum for people to talk about marriage as a vocation, if they're not allowed to do it in "vocation" station? I sure as heck don't want a fourteen year old reading the NFP forum. So what's their alternative?
[/quote]
[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1325091645' post='2358568']
Can we have a marriage board, then?

Call it Love Connection. It'll be epic.

In all seriousness, I understand what you're aiming for, dUSt. It would be good to have something for the wannabe-marrieds, if we are holding VS up as for the discerning only.
[/quote]
[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1325093125' post='2358584']
Vocational discernment doesn't happen in a vacuum. Often someone's discernment to a religious community can be very enriched by hearing stories of people's discernment to married life. Knowledge of the one can deepen appreciation for the other. Like Totus Tuus, I also appreciated the fact that this phorum was containing a bit more info on marriage - it seemed like a beautiful testament to the nature of the universal church. An understanding of that should be fundamental to anyone's discernment. It certainly doesn't hurt the religious discerners to have a few threads on married life in here.

I know you are not trying to be a jerk, but it does feel as though you are imposing your opinion of what religious discernment ought to look like. As you are a married man yourself, that seems a bit strange - unless you've been a vocation director yourself at one time, or had a lot experience with leading a parish discernment group, and you found this way to be best through experience.
[/quote]
[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1325093882' post='2358595']
I agree with beatitude ( and others).
1) Talk of marriage on VS has never ever in any way shape or form 'upset' me, nor can I see this talk being potentially upsetting to anyone else.
2) Everything in life is relative. I personally would be unhappy if marriage were not to be able to be talked about here on VS, It too is a vocation. I have never noticed posts talking MORE about marriage than they do about Life in Religion, but alongside, which IMO is just fine.
3) Exclusivity tends to breed attitudes of discontent, separation, and alienation in every place I have seen it. Please don't introduce it here on VS or phatmass....
4) I am an ex-nun. I am not discerning anything beyond the Lord's Will in my daily life. I am single and celibate. Does this mean I am not supposed to post here in VS? I am neither a priest or nun wannabe......
[/quote]
[quote name='StClare_OraProNobis' timestamp='1325095333' post='2358606']
ye-owch! I think that the people who have posted here on VS regarding marriage as a vocation usually have been people trying to sort out their own vocational calling when they have come up against road blocks in pursuing religious life. It seems a little harsh to suddenly exclude them from the friends they have made on VS with a "You are not called to religious life and therefore we do not want you to post here."

It can be very painful to desire religious life and not be able to live out that vocation. Especially when well-meaning people insist on emphasizing that marriage is a "lesser" vocation. I personally had to leave the convent due to some mental health issues and this was very painful. I actually don't think I have a vocation to marriage, but I can still see how someone who ran up against a "no" to religious life might feel really crummy about this if they think they may have a calling to marriage instead.

Maybe I am totally off base here, but I just think that being sensitive to those who have posted here and have formed relationships on VS and then discovered that they don't have a religious vocation might be important.
[/quote]


I totally agree with all of you!