Don't Start Threads Focusing On Marriage In Here.

[Sarah147]

It doesn't feel quite appropriate out there for the whole world to see. Over here in VS, it is more quiet, and given more seriousness and discretion. People that tend to respond over here are more serious about different types of discernment and spirituality and give a different perspective than one would typically get on the newspread of open mic.

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325121855' post='2358921']
how is that hard to understand?
[/quote]

I think those that disagree are just trying to state a perspective that perhaps dUSt has not thought of. Not that it is not understood, but that perhaps dUSt would reconsider.

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325122199' post='2358926']
And yet my diocese uses the term Vocation to indicate a call to religious life or the priesthood on their website. When people click on the link, they don't expect to find out information about the 'vocation' of marriage.
[/quote]

However even in VS there was a pinned "Resources for Marriage." I am not sure when or why it was taken down; but it WAS here for quite a long time. Which seems to add to the notion that marriage would be an acceptable topic for which to have threads begun here.

If dUSt wants to change it, that's his prerogative.

[Lisa]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1325122202' post='2358927']
It doesn't feel quite appropriate out there for the whole world to see. Over here in VS, it is more quiet, and given more seriousness and discretion. People that tend to respond over here are more serious about different types of discernment and spirituality and give a different perspective than one would typically get on the newspread of open mic.
[/quote]

I would like to respectfully remind you that VS is still very much "out there for the whole world to see". In fact, many of us lurked, reading VS threads long before joining when we googled one or more religious orders. Actually, the RSH board is probably the most secret in that it has a password. I've seen that you've successfully introduced several topics over there, and you've gotten great input from out "phatmass mom's group"- and those are the people that probably can give the most input on marriage as a vocation being lived out every day. It does become difficult, however, for our teen discerners who might have dating questions.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1325122339' post='2358931']
However even in VS there was a pinned "Resources for Marriage." I am not sure when or why it was taken down; but it WAS here for quite a long time. Which seems to add to the notion that marriage would be an acceptable topic for which to have threads begun here.

If dUSt wants to change it, that's his prerogative.
[/quote]

This has, I believe, only gone in the last day or so - I remember seeing it when I logged on on my phone as it takes longer to go through so I noticed it more.

[Sarah147]

True, this is public, too. But, the posts can get pretty hairy on the open mic and things get shuffled to the end of the pile.

Yeah, I have posted in RSH, but it still doesn't seem the best place for discerning marriage/courting/etc.

Edited December 29, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[BarbTherese]

The Church in the CCC has a very broad interpretation and understanding of the word "vocation"


[url="http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=vocation&xsubmit=Search&s=SS"][u][size=2][color=#0000ff][size=2][color=#0000ff]http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=vocation&xsubmit=Search&s=SS[/color][/size][/color][/size][/u][/url]

I noticed too that the Resources for Marriage had been taken down and wondered why.

[size=3]My diocese has this entry for "What is a Vocation?"[/size]

[b] [size=3][quote]What is a Vocation?[/size][/b]

[size=3][url="http://www.adelaide.catholic.org.au/sites/VocationsCentre/a-vocation"]http://www.adelaide....ntre/a-vocation[/url][/size]
[b] [size=3]ONE OF THE 'BEST KEPT SECRETS'[/size][/b]




'The dawning of this new century presents us with the challenge of continuing to foster a new (actually very old) understanding of vocation, one that was prevalent in the early Christian community but faded over the centuries. Many of our Catholic adults today remain blissfully unaware, firstly, that they actually have a vocation, and secondly, that they can play a vital role in assisting young people to choose the vocational lifestyle that will help them develop to their fullest potential.

Our English word "vocation" comes from the Latin "vocatio" which means "calling". For the greater part of the 20th century, there was a widely held perception that only priests, religious brothers and sisters had a "vocation", and that their lives were more favoured in God’s eyes than those who did not have a calling. This narrow understanding of "vocation" was reviewed and addressed during the Second Vatican Council, which reinstated the vocational theology of the early Christian community.

Until the early 1990s this was one of the Vatican Council’s "best kept secrets". The secret is now out, and the good news continues to spread. Today growing numbers of people recognise and celebrate that everyone has a vocation.

"Vocation" must be understood in the context of baptism. Our Christian calling is the consequence and the challenge of our baptism. Through baptism, all of us are called by God to become disciples of Jesus, discovering, developing and sharing our gifts and resources with others, as we work together to make a difference in our local and global communities.

God’s call is always an invitation to "Choose Life" (Deut.30.13). God calls most people to "choose life" within the vocation of marriage. Others are called to "choose life"through the single vocation, while others are called to "choose life" as sisters, brothers and priests.'

[i]From Sr Mary Ryan RSJ, Executive Officer, Catholic Vocations Ministry Australia[/i].

[quote]As well as the vocation to priesthood, religious life, marriage and single life, there is also vocation to the diaconate and to lay ecclesial ministry within the Church.[/quote] [/quote]

[Nunsense]

I have no idea why dUSt chose to make this decision at this time (yes I do remember seeing the Resources for Marriage thread pinned) but I can understand it a little. I too felt that things were getting a bit skewed here on VS with all the marriage threads and discussion. Incorrect or not, I felt that it was a way for those who had changed their minds about discerning a religious vocation to feel better about themselves by including their new plans in the VS. It is a hard pill for some to swallow that the Church considers a religous vocation a 'higher calling' than the married state - but I think this is simply a matter of pride. In our society, we are always striving to 'be the best', 'to win' and the 'be number one' so to hear that one state might be somehow 'better' (in our minds) than another makes the person who does not choose this state (or can't choose it for good reasons) feel bad about themselves. But I think this is an error in understanding. Higher does not mean better, especially in the terms that our society understands these terms. Is it better for a ballerina to try to be a doctor? I know that analogies can never really work, but for someone called to married life (and many will tell you that they definitely feel that this is what God has called them to) to think that they are somehow 'inferior' because their calling is not 'higher' than another is just a very subtle form of pride. And pride always hurts. The Martins wanted to be called to religious life but God had other plans for them as parents of a saint (and maybe many saints!). And in following their calling, they too became saints.

I don't think anyone should feel bad about not discerning religious life, but they should at least understand that it isn't the same as being called to the married state, as being married is a more 'natural' state than religious life. It may not be 'higher' in the eyes of the Church, but on the other hand, it is considered more necessary, and for that reason, marriage is a sacrament, whereas religious life is a sacramental state. I think we can all accept that being a priest is a higher state than being a husband/father, but when it comes to a nun/religious sister in relation to a wife/mother, we don't like the comparison. But we need to focus on the word 'higher' - not 'better'. Different. In this case, higher is a more spiritual term. At least in my understanding.

Some of us would have loved to have lived married life with all its joys, but for one reason or another that has been denied, or they felt that the calling to religious life had to be answered. My last Prioress had been engaged at the time she felt called to enter Carmel. She used to talk to me about it sometimes, and even after 50 years in Carmel, still felt a pull to that life and said it had been a real sacrifice for her to give up. Discussing marriage is great, but it is not the same as discerning religious life and perhaps needs to take a bit of back seat here in this forum. If it needs more attention, the another forum might be the answer, but I have no idea what that involves on dUSt's part or if he even thinks it is necessary. So I can see why it is being discussed here, but I also agree with dUSt that this is not the place for threads focused on married life. Where it should be done however, I just don't know and I hope this issue gets resolved without causing a lot of pain.

[BarbTherese]

.[quote]the Church considers a religous vocation a 'higher calling' than the married state [/quote]

Theologically speaking in an objective sense, religious life is a higher calling. Celibacy for the sake of The Kingdom is a higher calling objectively speaking theologically.
However, nothing can be higher or better than God's Will for a person by which means He intends to draw the person to holiness and to build up His Church - and this is a subjective theological sense. God also offers all the Graces necessary to live out one's vocation under those two terms: personal holiness, build up His Church.

[quote]somehow 'better' (in our minds) than another makes the person [b]who does not choose [/b]this state (or can't choose it for good reasons) feel bad about themselves[/quote]

It is God who provides the qualities and Graces necessary to live any vocation at all - any call from God whatsoever. It is never we who choose God, but rather God who chooses us "You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you". Why He chooses this person for this and another for that is in the Mystery of God.

Edited December 29, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[faithcecelia]

I guess one way to think of it, if feeling disappointed that the Church considers celibacy 'a higher calling', is that marriage is held in high enough esteem within the Church as to be its own sacrament, whereas religious consecration is 'only' an extention of baptism. They are equally valid without being identical.

[Sarah147]

"Nothing can be higher or better than God's Will..." Absolutely! Please see the post by Sister Marie posted earlier in this thread.


I'm tired and have to get ready for bed now, so unfortunately, I can't stick by this thread for a while.

Cherie, others, please keep the word out that we want VS or some special place for marriage talk.

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

I am glad the odds are that I won't be kicked out of VS. That would break my heart....

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1325124837' post='2358988']
I am glad the odds are that I won't be kicked out of VS. That would break my heart....
[/quote]

Claire, that was never the intention, just to highlight that if we are encouraging religious vocations at very young ages we should also be encourging discernment of marriage at the same age. I wouldnt want to lose you

Edited December 29, 2011 by faithcecelia

[Nunsense]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1325124837' post='2358988']
I am glad the odds are that I won't be kicked out of VS. That would break my heart....
[/quote]

I don't see anything in dUSt's original post or subsequent posts that said anything about kicking anyone out of VS!!!!!!!!! Why would you even think this?

All he asked, again I repeat, is that we don't START threads focusing on marriage.

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325123671' post='2358965']
Discussing marriage is great, but it is not the same as discerning religious life and perhaps needs to take a bit of back seat here in this forum. If it needs more attention, the another forum might be the answer
[/quote]

I suppose we must agree to disagree. I don't think VS was used to discuss the "joys of marriage" per se, but in the context of discernment. For example, a thread titled, "How did you discern you were called to marriage and not religious life (or vice versa)?" would be particularly apropos in VS.

I also think the point is that marriage DOES take a back seat in VS, and it should. So why make a point to prevent the starting of rare threads that have marriage as a topic when a) it's rare, and b) it's not the focus of VS anyway...and yet, being a vocation, is still appropriate to be here in VS.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1325124297' post='2358975']
"Nothing can be higher or better than God's Will..." Absolutely! Please see the post by Sister Marie posted earlier in this thread.


I'm tired and have to get ready for bed now, so unfortunately, I can't stick by this thread for a while.

Cherie, others, please keep the word out that we want VS or some special place for marriage talk.
[/quote]

Another poster suggested splitting VS into two boards. I like that idea.

I am all supportive of those who are discerning married life. Nunsense did state it right -- it is more "natural" to go towards marriage than religious life.

I am ok with starting threads that is the pondering of both married life and religious life. Pros and cons of each. That makes perfect sense especially in discernment.

However ... I think the line was sort of crossed with the "engaged/married list." I personally felt uncomfortable with such a list. I would supposed that there is a whole huge line of pmers who would belong in such a list. And honestly this would be a large contrast against the "discerning/entered" list. That isn't the intent of VS.

JL and MT -- I applaud your decisions to discern (if not pursue) marriage as a holy vocation. I think it is wonderful. We need more holy families that produce holy men and women who will either enter into a holy marriage or enter a vocation (to priesthood, to religious life, to consecrated virginity, to consecrated hermit, to etc.).

Again I'm with dUSt on this one. Well, except I do like the split phorum idea. That would solve the problem -- and for example threads that have to do with both marriage and religious life can cross thread (i.e. be pointed to by one of the admins in the other phorum).

[Nunsense]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1325125888' post='2359010']
I suppose we must agree to disagree. I don't think VS was used to discuss the "joys of marriage" per se, but in the context of discernment. For example, a thread titled, "How did you discern you were called to marriage and not religious life (or vice versa)?" would be particularly apropos in VS.

I also think the point is that marriage DOES take a back seat in VS, and it should. So why make a point to prevent the starting of rare threads that have marriage as a topic when a) it's rare, and b) it's not the focus of VS anyway...and yet, being a vocation, is still appropriate to be here in VS.
[/quote]

Look, I'm happy whichever way dUSt decides because honestly, it isn't the biggest thing happening in my life right now, and I can understand that it appears to have upset a lot of people here, although I am not sure why since he hasn't forbidden them to continue existing threads or to mention marriage in other threads, just not to START threads focused on marriage. Anyway, the point for me is that marriage is NOT a Vocation in the true sense of the word in relation to the Catholic Church. It is a vocation (small l) and a very important one (a sacrament), but not a Vocation (as meant by the Church). In that sense, if dUSt intended this forum to be about Vocations and not vocations, then he has every right to choose to limit the threads started here.

I can understand that you have an interest having discerned religious life (and lived it) before and now are in the married state, but for those of us who are still discerning (or living the life, as Sr Marie does), then the focus for us is the Vocation of religious life, not marriage.

Yes, we have to agree to disagree I guess, but perhaps those who want to post more about marriage, might use the existing threads here on VS (such as the one you mentioned) instead of starting new ones. dUSt is not asking for much here.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1325110925' post='2358716']
I post often in VS because I was a religious for five years and discerned religious life much longer than that. I worked extensively with the Vocation Directress of my former community. I have learned a lot while I was there and am glad to share what little knowledge I have gained with those discerning, because I love the life, do all I can to encourage it, and have been there before.

That being said, I am now a married woman. It was a vocational decision, not something I just wandered into.

I think it's general knowledge that VS is more geared toward consecrated life. But I see many benefits in discussing the topic of marriage every now and then, and that includes starting a topic on it now and then. When I was seriously discerning religious life, at one point in my discernment, the question of my attraction to marriage came up daily. It was a choice I had to make, guided by prayer, discernment, and spiritual direction. I think it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for those discerning to understand the vocation of marriage in discerning their call from God, for countless reasons.

I understand dUSt, where you are coming from, but I think the recent surge in threads in VS on marriage is simply the result of a few members taking a turn in their vocational discernment. It is by no means a permanent trend, and as someone who has been part of discerning religious life, being in religious life, then discerning marriage and becoming married, I think it is innocuous, if not very beneficial, for the VS audience.

I personally don't think Open Mic is necessarily the best place for folks to ask serious questions on marriage. RSH might be a good place, but it still might not be the right place for someone still open to religious life, yet wondering if marriage is their possible calling (a "dilemma" the majority of discerners encounter at some point.)

These are just my humble opinions.
[/quote]

Being that I am one of the ones who recently discerned out of marriage, I feel that your post hit the nail right on the head. I have been a member for a long time and have contributed many posts, but I feel like I am excluded from this particular (and favorite) sub-forum because I am no longer discerning religious life. If one posts on an already active thread about marriage, their post looks to be the one hijacking the discussion and/or it gets lost in the shuffle.

I am one of the ones that thinks that if we aren't allowed to post topics here discussing marriage, then start a sub-forum for discerning married life. I don't post serious topics about vocations in Open Mic, because, like JoyfulLife said, they tend to devolve into some weird discussion. In fact, I cannot recall one single topic I started there where it wasn't hijacked.

I may have to be a less active member now...

Edited December 29, 2011 by MaterMisericordiae

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1325125054' post='2358993']
I don't see anything in dUSt's original post or subsequent posts that said anything about kicking anyone out of VS!!!!!!!!! Why would you even think this?

All he asked, again I repeat, is that we don't START threads focusing on marriage.
[/quote]
Did you miss the page about Faith's idea of making an age-limit on VS? That's why, and I love what you said, dUST has spoken!

[BarbTherese]

I dont know where the small "v" and the capital "V" are distinguished anywhere by The Church in connection with "vocation".
A call and vocation from God is always deserving of the very best of everything including dignity and application. It can be of course a purely personal choice to use the distinction.

Edited December 29, 2011 by BarbaraTherese