Fitness For Religious Life

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='marigold' timestamp='1329333395' post='2387596']
Yes, and I'm sorry if I bombarded you a bit.

You know, I thought the topic of this thread was going to be whether we need to get on the treadmill and get in shape before we enter the convent!
[/quote]

I thought it was about nuns doing Jazzercise!

[franciscanheart]

I would strongly encourage you to keep your discernment concentrated in prayer, and to not bring in too many opinions! Your SD should know you well, and he or she can help to guide you to God's will. He will make Himself known to you if only you put your trust in Him.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1329335530' post='2387611']


I thought it was about nuns doing Jazzercise!
[/quote]

[BarbTherese]

Sometimes and even often, our imagination/expectation(s) and the reality are two different things entirely. We can imagine something is going to be like whatever (our expectation/s or anticipations) and when we experience the actual situation or the reality of matters, we were entirely wrong in our imagination/ our expectations or anticipations. This applies to all vocations, be it marriage, religious life or any other call from God which is usually first experienced as an attraction for some reason. That attraction presents to us through our imagination a concept or concepts of 'what it will be like for me', which is only ever an anticipation of or expectation of the way of life. - and not necessarily at all the reality of matters which can only be experienced by experiencing. This is surely one of the reasons that the discernment journey begins intensively with postulancy and the ongoing discernment by oneself and the community in the actual reality of the life up to final profession.

Also, sometimes asking advice can confuse issues further with all sorts of concepts flowing in. Be guided always and primarily by your spiritual director who is in touch with the many aspects of one's person. Also, be absolutely trustful of Divine Providence prayerfully. The Lord is always providing for us and in the many aspects of our person, interior and exterior. Vocation is only ever an invitation and not a Divine Command. If for whatever reason we do not take up The Lord's invitation nothing whatsoever is lost - and as if we had actually taken up His invitation. This is an expression of The Lord's full embrace lovingly of our free will with which He has created us - and of His Unrelenting and Absolute Love of us never withdrawn.

Edited February 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[maximillion]

Pace of Life in Religion relentless - hey have you ever considered the timetable of a home mom who has a couple ( or more ) kids?
After the convent I adopted, and I didn't have a husband to take care of, but I did have a full time job, and let me say this very clearly - I had no time for friends, or very little. It felt like I ran for four years non stop untill my son was a little older and could do stuff for himself.

I found the rigours of raising a child far outweighed ANYTHING I faced in RL!!!!!!

[Antigonos]

A person doesn't choose "marriage" as a vocation; at least, not in our society. We marry [i]someone[/i], male or female as the case may be. It is true that in ultra-Orthodox Jewish circles, the parents do arrange marriages, but their outlook on life is so different from the average modern man or woman that it isn't relevant here. In these cases, children are raised not to expect love, but rather to do their duty in rearing the next generation of ultra-Orthodox Jews, and the parents go to endless trouble to find a compatible person for their son or daughter. Children are raised to believe that their parents know best for them. Many haredi women have told me that "love is something that couples grow into, usually after the first children come", and that "friendship" is more important in any case. Women in this society are raised expecting to not only have very large families but to support their husbands, who do not work but study Torah for their entire lives. They are also largely segregated from men. It works for them; but not for many others [even the modern Orthodox are not so extreme] Reading about lengthy discernments, live-ins, retreats, etc. sounds very thorough, yet many [and many on this list] have found the 24/7 reality to be sufficiently different from their expectations to have left religious life, or changed to another order. There isn't any "trial of marriage" in the Catholic tradition [or, in fact, in most religions] Believe me, marriage is VERY different from the expectations of any single person. It is like having a baby; I don't care how many books are read, or internet searches or classes, first pregnancies and first births, and child-raising are NEVER what you plan for. And in a Catholic marriage, there isn't any formation period prior to "final vows". No noviciate or junior profession when one can change one's mind.

Even if one has a very clear idea of the sort of spouse one wants, there isn't any guarantee that the "bashert" ["the destined one" in Yiddish] will ever show up, or that he/she will turn out as expected. Marriage requires a lot of hard work by both spouses. Issues that singles think will be major often turn out to be minor, and minor irritations -- or even things that, prior to marriage you never even knew existed -- can make or break a relationship. Having a common religious outlook helps, but it isn't the be-all or end-all, especially when idealism gives way to reality.

So, in short, I have trouble getting my mind around the "either-or" of marriage vs. religious life. You can choose religious life, but marriage might happen, or it might not. Or at least, that's my opinion. I wanted to get married quite badly in my twenties, but no one suitable turned up -- until I really was resigned to remaining single. Fortunately, I had a profession which could engage me. Then, one day, when I was 31, my bashert showed up, and I've now been married for 33+ years. But I'd be lying if I said that it has been an easy marriage or anything like I expected it to be. Now, at 65, with three grown children and a granddaughter, I have mellowed and can congratulate myself on a job pretty much well done, but there were a lot of times when I regretted marrying.

[marigold]

Antigonos and maximillion thank you for providing some perspective! Oh my goodness yes, I'd forgotten about when I took my 2-year-old charge for the weekend... it was VERY difficult, much harder than my dayjob of nannying, and gave me a lot more respect for his mother. I did make the comment about doing laundry and arguing about dishes being the reality of both married and convent life, but thank you both for giving lengthier explanations.

[AccountDeleted]

While I agree with antigonos and maximilion about how hard it is to be married and raise a family, just as it is impossible to understand how relentless being a mother is, there are also challenges to religious life that no one can truly understand until they have lived it.

I was also a single mother raising an adopted child (actually, two of them since I already had a longterm foster care child when my second daughter came along) and working full time as a college administrator and finishing off both my graduate diploma and my Master's in the same year! Talk about over achiever

And yes, raising children was so much more than I had expected from being a long time aunt, even though I was involved with my sister's children as their nannie when they were young. Having all the responsibility for a little life is very intimidating and very all consuming.

On the other hand, religious life is totally all consuming in a different way. The thing that I found the hardest was no longer having a say in so much of my own life. When one is a mother, it is sometimes possible to get a friend or family member to care for the child/ren while one has a day off or a sleep in. And school/summer camps were a delight - a whole weekend or week in which to pamper myself!

In the convent, one's daily routine is scheduled according to the needs and demands of the community and one can't simply say, "Okay I need a 'mental health day' to rest and recover my equilibrium now." While one can ask for an early night or a late rising, it just isn't done (in Carmel at any rate) to take a day or weekend off whenever one needs it!

I think the intensity (and greatest challenge) of religious life is not just living in community (we all have difficult family members), it is the fact that one lives with, eats with, sleeps with and works with the same people day in and day out for the rest of their lives. If one has a difficult child or co-worker in the 'world', there is almost always some way to get away from them, but in the convent, not only does one have no where else to go, one is also expected to go beyond their own personal feelings about another person for the love of God and the good of the community.

Sure, marriage is very difficult due to its intimacy, but when one has a fight with their spouse, they are also able to sit down and talk things out (hopefully), work out ways to solve the problem, and then to 'make-up' in a loving and intimate way. In the convent, one doesn't have the same opportunities to work things out, and often this isn't encouraged - one is just told to accept the cross and to pray for the other person. It can take a greater degree of surrender to do this without the opportunity to hash out all the difficulties between each other. It is trying to see Christ in another person through acceptance and trust.

So, what I am saying is that I don't think this a competition between religious life and family life (not that anyone said it was). Each way of life has its own challenges and also its own rewards. Having been blessed to know married life (briefly), motherhood (through foster care and adoption) and religious life (in a few different environments), I respect and admire all these states of life. whichever one God calls a person to, there is more than enough opportunity to work on sanctity.

[BarbTherese]

[sub][size=5]Every vocation is going to have its joys and its high points and its challenges and low points and they probably wont clarify on a personal level until the actual way of life is lived. This, I think, is what commitment is about - a being prepared to accept whatever may come along with trust in Divine Providence, not only providing directly or permissively for whatever may occur but granting also the Grace of perseverance through all challenges. [/size][/sub]
[sub][size=5]With marriage, the commitment comes before the actual life can be experienced and lived and takes immense confidence in God - when I married, I truly shuddered at the marriage vows although I truly vowed in the actual sense of the word and quite consciously before The Lord. I wanted to be the best wife and mother that I could be with His Help. What I was to many years later realize, was that marriage takes two to truly vow in the actual sense of the word and before God depending on Him. This is not to compare marriage say with religious life. Every vocation indeed will have its joys and also its challenges - different only in kind. For example a religious makes her final vows, but she has no idea of what changes are going to occur in her community, including that of leadership and their concepts as time rolls on. My own spiritual director is celebrating 60 years in religious life at the end of this month - her life has gone through incredible changes in those 60 years and religious life is no longer as she first experienced it - nothing like it! When she entered she was in a huge convent of over 100 fellow sisters and in full habit with a very demanding horarium including an active apostolate of teaching in primary schools in Australia. When at home, the sisters were almost enclosed. When the full habit was abandoned and changes began, her comment to me was "I just followed the others". Now she lives alone, is in secular clothing and drives a car. Daily Mass is no longer a few paces away in a Chapel - she needs to drive to different parishes. Amazingly, though well into her 80's, I thought initially she was somewhere around my age (66yrs).[/size][/sub]
[sub][size=5]I dont think the different vocations can be compared except to state that there will be joys and there will be challenges as The Lord may see fit. The personal details of how one's particular vocation unfolds and that of another in the same vocation will vary immensely and as The Lord may see fit for our personal sanctification. I did find religious life easier than marriage, but I could see the lines of struggle and suffering edged into the faces of some of my fellow sisters. "Let us make man in Our Own Image and Likeness". The face of God is spiritual beauty - but he gave us material faces on which I think we probably do write our interior story and spirit. That I found religious life easier than marriage (a particularly difficult marriage on several fronts it needs to be stated) was only my particular rather short journey and even then I left monastic life and felt and still feel that I made the right choice as much as I love and admire absolutely our religious sisters and nuns and their way of life. I know I always will.[/size][/sub]

Edited February 17, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I live in a block of three units - all of us in our mature years and living alone. The block of units is set well off the road in a paved courtyard and though I shifted here in latter half of 2009, I have had no opportunity to get to know my neighbours out in my street and vastly different from my previous address where my house was not far off the street and I knew everyone in the street and at times visited for coffee and a chat - and over 30 years got to really know everyone and not only in my own street.. This is an entirely new experience for me at this address - totally unanticipated and I had no choice from the government housing authority of whom I am a tenant, I had to shift. I truly almost dropped the phone when they rang me. I had anticipated being taken out of that address in a coffin. There are advantages over my previous address in that I am in a very modern unit, easy to keep clean with a pretty easy care garden established by my sons. I am closer by an hour's drive to my two brothers to whom I am very close along with their families - but we dont live in each other's pockets. One of my sons lives and works interstate, the other is about 8 miles from me. He is actually my foster son and we took him in while I was married with behavioural problmes at 8yrs old. He is now 47yrs old and still regards me as Mum, which I am. He too has his own career and life, independance.

I was in college at my previous address and loved the experience. When I shifted I transferred to an adult campus near my new residence. It was a dreadful experience for me personally and nothing like the campus near my previous address. I left college and thoughts of going to university and began voluntary work 2 days weekly. I take in ironing 5 days each fortnight.

With my two neighbours here, we do tend to live in each other's pockets and this is a really new and unexpected challenge for me. It was an established practice, I discovered, before my shift and I fell into step without realizing what was happening, hindsight informed me. I didn't realize at first what living in a block of three units as an environment would mean never having experienced such previously. Now I call it "living in each others pockets". My neighbours just experience it as life, their way of life. We probably have, and in fact I think we do, different attitudes and perspectives.

Attitude and perspective is the whole of life - broadly speaking and we are all tarred with the same humanity and also with absolute uniqueness in our humanity. Each of us is a one only - a one of and beloved by The Lord reflecting somehow His Image and with a particular reason we are here wherever we are in this life. That reason is the great challenge of life, no matter how great, no matter how nondescript and humble to this world. Nothing is nondescript and humble with The Lord - all is great, of absolute necessity, and all is blessed with outstanding potential for holiness.

We are, every single last one of us, a warts and all package, beloved by The Lord - warts and all.

My life in the parish gradually become a most rewarding time of joy; however, we have had a major parish crisis and I am now an outsider again - pushed to the outside looking in is the feeling. My best friend at my previous address died in her sleep a few months after I shifted and a married woman in this new parish and I were just becoming real friends, getting to really know each other and to enjoy the experience as fellow commited Catholics - she too was an ex religious sisters although an active order. On holidays she very suddenly passed away last month.

To me, this is the environment and community, neighbourhood and parish, to which The Lord has called me and on mission with a personal brief to Peace, Justice, Truth and to Joy, His Kingdom - the House of The Lord, and it will have its joys I know as well as its challenges, but Grace I know goes before me. God grant me faithfulness. And as with any and all calls and vocations, this may be where we are at now, wherever we may be. Only The Lord knows His Designs for the future - and all is well, all is well and all manner of things shall be well (St Julian of Norwich).

[TheresaThoma]

This thread reminded me of a video :
[url="http://www.preachingfriars.org/vespers-preaching/perfect-vocation"]http://www.preachingfriars.org/vespers-preaching/perfect-vocation[/url]

He really clearly explains the difference between the perfect vocation and the vocation that is perfect for you.

[BarbTherese]

Good video, TheresaThoma, and with some humour. I had a big smile in a few places and especially at the opening comments. Thank you for very much for the sharing.

Edited February 17, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Antigonos]

Some of the members of VS are very young, and I have thought, more than once, that [without sounding patronizing!] that they are too inexperienced in life generally to make such radical committments in one way or another. It is one of the reasons why I am surprised that there aren't more orders interested in older vocations. While it is true, of course, that health issues are much more critical as one gets older, and some people become more rigid with age, it is also true that a great many older folks, having "been there, done that" are actually more flexible in outlook and adaptable, and know their own minds much better than they might have done several decades before.

On a lighter note, I had three children in a space of three and a half years. One might deplore the constant presence of one's sisters in a convent, but I well remember the frustration of trying to have a decent interval in the bathroom--the instant they knew I was occupied, they'd tear the house apart. I suffered from constipation for years! [Someday, I'm gonna write a book entitled "What Dr. Spock Forgot". I'll make a million ]

My point is that while one can plan for religious life, marriage as an alternate vocation is not something one can "organize", even with Catholic dating groups.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1329460197' post='2388371']
Some of the members of VS are very young, and I have thought, more than once, that [without sounding patronizing!] that they are too inexperienced in life generally to make such radical committments in one way or another. It is one of the reasons why I am surprised that there aren't more orders interested in older vocations. While it is true, of course, that health issues are much more critical as one gets older, and some people become more rigid with age, it is also true that a great many older folks, having "been there, done that" are actually more flexible in outlook and adaptable, and know their own minds much better than they might have done several decades before.

On a lighter note, I had three children in a space of three and a half years. One might deplore the constant presence of one's sisters in a convent, but I well remember the frustration of trying to have a decent interval in the bathroom--the instant they knew I was occupied, they'd tear the house apart. I suffered from constipation for years! [Someday, I'm gonna write a book entitled "What Dr. Spock Forgot". I'll make a million ]

My point is that while one can plan for religious life, marriage as an alternate vocation is not something one can "organize", even with Catholic dating groups.
[/quote]

Certainly one can 'try' to plan for religious life but like marriage and motherhood, it is never really what one expects. For me, although life as a mother was very demanding (especially when more than one child was in the home), at least as a mother I was the one making the decisions and controlling the environment (as much as any parent can do, however little this may be). In a religious community, one has very little say in so many aspects of their life and this can feel worse (in my opinion) than being denied access to the bathroom!

Perhaps one of the greatest difficulties in religious life is to subsume the natural inclination to try to control one's life. giving away autonomy and decision making to another is never easy, but especially so in those times when the decisions of the community or a superior seem to be lacking in common sense. I know that I trust my own judgment much more than I trust others (perhaps from being a boss so many times and a parent), and yet in religious life, I have to accept another's will (praying and trusting that it is God directed) for even the small things in my life. This isn't the same as making a compromise with a spouse or child, although in many communities now, much more collaborative communication is allowed and encouraged, because ultimately, the decision rests with the superior. One could argue that this is the same with any employer, but it isn't exactly because in the world, one can choose a variety of options to handle a disagreement or lack of confidence in the decisions of a superior. At one job, I took a disagreement to human resources and they had both of us participate in mediation until the issue was resolved. In the end, I realised that the situation would not change, and made the decision to leave. This was not considerd a 'failure' (as it often feels in religious life when one leaves) because I went on to a more prestigious and higher paying job where I was able to use my own judgment more often.

I think this is why so many communities are wary of taking older women - because of my own experiences as a person in charge, I often find myself questioning the judgment of others, and unless I truly respect my superior (in a job), then I do find it hard to work with them. This is something that I am aware of and in the world, it might not be considered such a problem because 'accepting responsibility' in a job is well regarded. I know that in religious life, there is a supernatural element at work and that accepting responsibility isn't as important as accepting God's will through the superior.

I am not saying that all superiors are right or that everything they do can be tolerated (especially in the case of abuse) - only that living religious life can't really be compared with any other vocation on a point for point basis because once the element of self-will is taken away (after freely choosing to enter) then things start to take on a different perspective. There is no way that one could live the religious life without the grace of God and still turn out to be a healthy, well-balanced individual. Spouses may have to make a lot of compromises but in a healthy relationship neither one of them gives up their self-will totally for the will of the other. And unless a religious is giving up theirs for the love of God alone, then they are in danger of becoming bitter and resentful and potentially abusive to others.

As for the youth of most of the phatmassers on VS these day, I think it is wonderfully refreshing that so many young people want to give their lives to God. The community I am joining has a minimum age of 25 (although I am sure they would treat each person as an individual) because they prefer a young person to have experienced a bit of life, being independent and making choices, before entering. I do worry a little about the teenagers here who want to enter at 15, 18 etc, because the young women of today are different than those of yesterday (and of course St Therese comes to mind) but I am the last person to think that a biological age should be a limitation. I just pray for good guidance and discernment on the part of these young women before they make their final decision. Youth is about learning and growing and maturing, so all of these retreats and nun runs and other events are a wonderful way for them to determine where God is leading them.
Anyway, that's my perspective on things.

Edited February 17, 2012 by nunsense

[BarbTherese]

I think probably we can all rest assured no matter our vocation in life, that in all it contains it will be blessed with the potential for great holiness - and with joys and challenges. And before we hear that special call from God through our baptism, we have a vocation already in our baptism and call and vocation to a relalationship with Jesus and a Gospel based way of life - a call from The Lord to a certain way of life ........... until He starts to spell out a special invitation to us and the initial detail therein - convent or monastery bound, marriage bound - or whatever.

It is not easy to get up night after night to a sick baby say - and then care for the whole family during the day and perhaps hold down a job as well. Then come down with a nasty cold oneself and have to persevere through it all as best one can. But then there are factors in religious life that aren't easy either. You can't really weigh things in any sort of scale to my mind to say this is easier than that. This is harder than that. Some will find "this aint so bad"! Others may find the same factor is a dreadful burden. The Lord knows what He is about in the joys and challenges that come our way and there will be sufficient of both to make great saints of us all, faithful to His Promises and if we are faithful to Grace.

I think it is really wonderful that nowadays discernment is a journey that begins quite early sometimes and with opportunities to experience the life as a guest in the community. Not all communities do this however I know. One hears the call whenever one hears it - as gold is found wherever it is found. No gold where it is not, for sure! I have really loved reading on Catholic Discussion Sites about the youngies desiring religious life, and lamenting that they still have years to go before they can enter. I do feel for them and remember my own youth. Treasures they are! Some are psychologically and spiritually at a sound level of maturity at a young age, others may take longer. Opportunties exist too for female mature aged vocations into religious life even after divorce and annulment. I think probably it always has been possible under Canon Law (although I am unsure) but pre V2 not often, if ever, taken up by religious orders.

As a pre V2-er it is amazing to me how much information is available about religious life and monastic living nowadays outside of the life itself. One can even have a video tour through a monastery and nowadays an even closer look at religious life itself through various documentaries - once totally unheard of pre V2. Pre V2 all this was almost secretive and one did not know anything really until one entered. The movie "The Nun's Story" (and there may have been books prior) was an amazing experience in that it was a look into an almost 'secret society' to the uninitiated. And I must say with St Mary of The Cross MacKillop, our first Aussie saint that "it is an Australian who speaks" and I am coming from and reflecting on my own experiences in Australia. Way years back then too in my youth we did not have the communication technology we have today with so much info at our fingertips. My parents didn't even have a telephone and for many years not a television either. The family gathered around an ancient radio cabinet in the evenings - sometimes.

Edited February 17, 2012 by BarbaraTherese