Opposite Sex Housemates

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1334539063' post='2418426']
thats funny, because i could probably find a lot more women that would say other wise. I know all the ones I know do.
[/quote]

Well, if all of your friends think walking around practically naked is okay, what does that say about them? I'm not saying they are bad friends, but I certainly would not have any of my daughters walk around naked or wear immodest clothing. Here's why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3GcCM-PmQs

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1334539317' post='2418431']
Word. Thanks for looking up and providing the Catechism quote. That's the point I was trying to drive home.
[/quote]

Well, again, it's always possible I misread it or read what I wanted to read. I wasn't exactly the best example of a person when I read it. That's why I was laying on my bed reading a book literally titled "Pure Manhood", which more properly translates into "Hey Average Secular Guy, Read This".

Edited April 16, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1334538365' post='2418410']
Jason Evert says lust is a gift from God. And if I remember correctly, Jason Evert is on EWTN quite a bit and had a few shows. EWTN wouldn't have a quack speak about morals.
[/quote]

I'll take Church teaching clearly and expressly written in the Catechism over Jason Evert's opinion. Thanks anyway.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1334535876' post='2418379']
Clothing is morally neutral. Sorry, Victorians.
[/quote]
Joseph Conrad and the other cultural imperialists will not be happy about this...

[missionseeker]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1334539484' post='2418434']
Well, again, it's always possible I misread it or read what I wanted to read. I wasn't exactly the best example of a person when I read it. That's why I was laying on my bed reading a book literally titled "Pure Manhood", which more properly translates into "Hey Average Secular Guy, Read This".
[/quote]

I think this may the case. Since you were only 13, it's quite possible to have misread or misunderstood. I did a quick google of "Jason Evert lust" and found (mostly videos which I can't watch right now) that are titled "Lust vs. Love."

Also this

[url="http://blogs.stthomas.edu/cathstudies/2011/11/jason-evert-challenges-ust-fall-in-love-not-lust/"]http://blogs.stthomas.edu/cathstudies/2011/11/jason-evert-challenges-ust-fall-in-love-not-lust/[/url]

[quote][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][left][background=rgb(251, 251, 249)]First, was the concept that a man must die internally for the woman; he must give fully of himself and disregard many of[/background][/left][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][left][background=rgb(251, 251, 249)][img]http://blogs.stthomas.edu/cathstudies/files/2011/11/respect-women1.jpg[/img] his desires to fully love her. By doing this, the man should always want what is best for her in every situation and to be there to protect and respect her purity. The second thing that stood out to me was finding the unique beauty in each woman. It is important to be able to look beyond the external beauties of a woman and see what truly makes her special. I have seen how the world puts too much emphasis on how a girl looks and what you can get from her rather than what makes her who she is and what you can give to her. Jason highlighted that approaching women in this way does not lead you to fall in love; it leads you to fall in lust.[/background][/left][/font][/color]
[color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][left][background=rgb(251, 251, 249)]After leaving Jason’s talk, here is what I have to say to men on relationships: love the women in your life for who they are, not what for they can give you, and do everything in your power to keep them from harm, protect their purity, and respect the beauty that lies within them. This is not lust; this will lead you to love.[/background][/left][/font][/color][/quote]

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1334538837' post='2418418']
I may have mixed up what he said. Keep in mind I read it when I was thirteen and I wouldn't be surprised if I either misread it or read what I wanted to read.
[/quote]

I sincerely hope that this is the case. Because what you're saying he taught is in direct contradiction with what the Catechism states and that's a dangerous road to go down.

[missionseeker]

Also, more on topic, the catechism also says this about chastity in a secular world.



[quote]

[color=#333333]2527 "The Good News of Christ continually renews the life and culture of fallen man; it combats and removes the error and evil which flow from the ever-present attraction of sin. It never ceases to purify and elevate the morality of peoples. It takes the spiritual qualities and endowments of every age and nation, and with supernatural riches it causes them to blossom, as it were, from within; it fortifies, completes, and restores them in Christ."316[/color]
[/quote]
[quote]

[size=4][color=#000000]2347 The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends,134 who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality.[/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#000000]Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one's neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion[/color][/size]

[size=4][/quote][/size]
[size=4][color=#000000]While it is certainly not ideal, I don't think that men and women living under the same roof are scandal. The[/color][left]y can even be an example of chastity in a world where chastity is.. weird and strange and not known. [/left][/size]

[Marie-Therese]

I don't know how I feel about this thread right now.

Clothing IS morally neutral. There is no inherent morality contained in a scrap of fabric, no matter how you choose to wear it. Is a woman who wears thong underwear underneath her ankle-length skirt and modest shirt a whore, because her knickers contain a few square inches less than another pair? How about people who go without undies? Let's extrapolate. How about people who wear pantaloons that are too tight, because they gained weight and don't have the cash to acquire better fitting ones?

People are responsible for their CHOICES. For their ACTIONS. It seems that plenty of people would love to jump on a person for their poor example, before ever examining what that example actually IS. And YES I'm using capital letters, because, YES, I find this extremely irritating.

A woman wears a bikini at the beach. What an immoral slutbag. In the imminent and all-knowing judgement of the observer they would claim to know the moral state of such a woman. Perhaps that woman is wearing a suit someone let her borrow, because she did not have one of her own. Is a woman attired in such a way as to attract salacious glances? Then she is to be pitied, because that is obviously not the attention that would affirm her as a human being. You don't have to be Catholic, Christian, or even religious to know that being sexually objectified can lead to undesirable consequences. And, what if she actually is a whore? Like a literal pay-for-play harlot? Maybe less time scrutinizing her for her choices, and more time trying to find a real concrete way to help her, might be a better expenditure of energy.

Living with a platonic member of the opposite sex...again, what if the situation is born of necessity because those individuals cannot afford one of those lovely one-person apartments spoken of earlier? Is the Catholic conscience (and the Catholic "culture" touted here) so devoid of empathy for their fellow men, who Christ commanded to love as one loves themselves, that they would be more concerned with the appearance of a situation than finding out the TRUTH of it? And what if it were people co-habiting and involved in a relationship? Maybe you SHOULD be explaining that stuff to your kids. They need to know the way of the world. If you want them to understand why something is wrong, they have to know it exists first.

If you really believe in Christ and His mercy, then you ought to revel in the opportunity to show it and to teach it.

Edited because I accidentally a letter.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Marie-Therese

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1334538873' post='2418420']
I am not really happy with you speaking for all men, Futurepriest. Your experiences and thoughts do not necessarily represent everyone else with an XY chromosome


and you are even less qualified when it comes to how women feel about clothing.
[/quote]

wha???? a 15-year old can't speak for men in their 20s, 30s, 40s and beyond?

[BG45]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334546029' post='2418506']
wha???? a 15-year old can't speak for men in their 20s, 30s, 40s and beyond?
[/quote]

I don't think I'd feel confident ever speaking for all men, no matter my age. Free will and the fact we're each independent and individual and all that jazz. And I'd rather not presume to speak for women at all, because I don't know what it's like to be one.

[PhuturePriest]

I think we're not understanding each other clearly. First off: Yes, a piece of cloth is neutral in the moral sense. But in our culture when not wearing much is a fashion statement saying "Look at my sexy body", it is bad to wear that clothing. This may not be what you want it to mean, but wearing bikinis sends the message "Look at my body. Isn't it so great?" Like I have had to learn to look at things the way a woman looks at them since I have gotten on this site, you must look at things the way a man looks at them. Do you honestly think a man isn't going to lust after you if you're wearing what might as well be called a napkin-top? I'm not putting the blame on you for his decisions, but is wearing a bikini really necessary? Of course not. The bikini was made for men to lust after women. This is why the designer for bikinis had to hire a hooker to wear it because he couldn't find a model that was willing to wear it on the runway. You can blame it on how times were back then all you want, but that situation is what it is: Only a hooker was willing to wear it, and I'm sure she was paid a lot of money for it.

Also, I am not saying a man and a woman that absolutely had to for economic or other reasons could not live in the same apartment. But doing this simply because you want to is something I would not recommend and it is something I would not let my daughter or son do.

Thank you all for a very fun debate. I'm actually surprised that this debate never turned ugly. I'm not used to debates starting out okay and having nobody freaking out at one point or another, so I must say this was quite pleasant. However, nobody is getting anywhere here, and I do not see any valid reason why I should stay since I am not gaining anything. I will keep reading this debate and see how it all goes, but I do not really want to continue debating.

FYI, I think I may have mixed up the word "lust" with Jason Evert saying that finding a woman sexually attractive and wanting to have marital relations with her is okay and is in fact a gift from God. Just so everyone is clear.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334546029' post='2418506']
wha???? a 15-year old can't speak for men in their 20s, 30s, 40s and beyond?
[/quote]

Well, if I can't why are fifteen year old girls allowed to speak on behalf of all women? I do recall one saying that girls don't find bikinis demeaning. I'm not trying to spark up a fight, but I did think this deserved a response. I do realize I sometimes speak on behalf of all men, but that is usually an accident, believe it or not. Most of the time I don't even know I'm doing it. I'll be sure to watch out for it in the future, and I thank you for pointing it out.

Iff there is one time where I feel I should speak on behalf of all men, it is now when I say that I am sorry for all of the terrible demeaning I used to put girls through and that all men have put girls through. I am sorry for lusting after you through pornography and through the evils the human mind is capable of, and I hope you will forgive me and others.

Edited April 16, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Winchester]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1334538516' post='2418413']
Clothing is not morally neutral. Bikinis are highly demeaning to women, and shockingly enough bikinis are considered clothing, though you could be more clothed with a towel. Did you know that when bikinis first came out the guy couldn't find any model that was willing to wear it on the runway, so he had to hire a hooker to do it? That sure speaks well about bikinis and what women with self-respect think about them.
[/quote]
What culture and year was that?

Disregard, as I see you later admitted that clothing is morally neutral.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Winchester

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1334546701' post='2418513']
What culture and year was that?

Disregard, as I see you later admitted that clothing is morally neutral.
[/quote]

I actually thought I wrote this at first. It's like watching Kramer vs. Kramer...

[Winchester]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1334546920' post='2418514']
I actually thought I wrote this at first. It's like watching Kramer vs. Kramer...
[/quote]
"Admit" is an inflammatory word intended to elicit a response. You did well, using humour.

[Basilisa Marie]

Marie-Therese you are fantastic.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1334546615' post='2418512']
Well, if I can't why are fifteen year old girls allowed to speak on behalf of all women?
[/quote]

who says they are?

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1334547128' post='2418515']
"Admit" is an inflammatory word intended to elicit a response. You did well, using humour.
[/quote]

I played very tactically with this one, though I can sense a bit of an ego out of me. I'm starting to get smarter post by post...

[Winchester]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1334547289' post='2418516']
Marie-Therese you are fantastic.
[/quote]
I taught her everything she knows.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1334547352' post='2418517']
who says they are?
[/quote]

15 year old girls.