Opposite Sex Housemates

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1334384661' post='2417618']
I was reading the Ranger motto and thought how in many ways it fits for Catholics if we replace the word Ranger with Catholic.
[/quote]
Catholics Lead The Way!

[vee]

Forget room mates period. Even if you live with a same sex family member you may sin with anger and fighting, gossip etc. Sexual sins arent the only sins around and frankly there is a reason God invented one bedroom apartments!! One bedroom, one person ALONE!

[kujo]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1334421687' post='2417715']
Forget room mates period. Even if you live with a same sex family member you may sin with anger and fighting, gossip etc. Sexual sins arent the only sins around and frankly there is a reason God invented one bedroom apartments!! One bedroom, one person ALONE!
[/quote]

Right, because there aren't any sins that "one person" could commit while living in one of these God-blessed "one bedroom apartments"...."ALONE"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1334423319' post='2417727']
Right, because there aren't any sins that "one person" could commit while living in one of these God-blessed "one bedroom apartments"...."ALONE"
[/quote]

The point is scandal isn't one of them

[AnneLine]

OK, I am going to risk making some of you want to take away my spiffy new title (and my new-found ability to do good with props that has made my housework suffer terribly the last few days(!)) but I am not sure that it ALWAYS is a bad thing to have opposite sexes sharing an apartment. I think it just depends on the situation.

Ok... I'll start with this. You want to talk about the potential for a scandal - my namesake, SAINT Anne Lline shared a house with a bunch of priests and other hiding recusants...I suspect ALL of them males... and I would be willing to bet that there was NO scandal involved... And, of all the things they accused her and those priests of, that one never even came up. Granted, that was an extraordinary situation, but I use it to point out that NEVER is a very strong word... it just depends.

MIKolbe has offered the use of his basement to PHATmassers for the Phamily Meet-up -- and I'd be willing to bet there will be no hanky-panky if people of opposite genders take him up on it. Again... it just depends!

And people in other cultures and even in our own but with different customs have managed to live holy and chaste lives while sharing a space together for hundreds of years. And yes, there have been problems, too, which is probably why we have become more concerned, and why as we take more time before we get married (often because of financial pressures) we have moved into more and more people living isolated before marriage.

That also has its own set of problems... because living in community is tough (whether religious life, married life or family life). Those who have been blessed to grow up in big families have learned to share space and respect those of opposite sex living among them. There are unspoken -- and I would suspect spoken -- standards of behavior to be sure that that nothing happens. Many people have to have roommates or live with housemates prior to getting married because even studio apartments are VERY expensive.

Living with others in a chaste way isn't a bad thing. Because ... if you are living alone, you forget how to SHARE a space with another. You forget how to respect yourself and the other enough because one can get sloppy and too laid-back -- in housework, in living habits, and yes, in modesty habits as well. After all.... it's your own space, right? I'm not advocating this, mind you.... but I have known a lot of people for whom moving into a healthy marriage was a problem over just some of those things. And these were good,, holy, and fine people!

I think a number of you have made some excellent points about the dangers involved.. and the potential for scandal. I get that, and it MUST be a consideration. If it would scandalize neighbors or family memers, it shouldn't be done. But if the space is big enough, and the house/apartment is set up for people to have their own space within it, I don't see it as a problem. Maybe one of the tasks of a parent is to decide on how to explain how two people of either sex could share a space together in a way that would be pleasing to God. I understand the concern about how to explain this to a young child... but I think the idea that they have separate spaces or apartments within that dwelling might work... just as you have a separate 'space' from theirs within your own home. I dunno... I'm not a parent, and maybe I am being naive.

Now that I think of it, one of our older Seculars (in her mid-sixties I believe) has a male housemate - and he has never been anything other than respectful toward her - and he even brings her to our meetings and prints things out of his computer for her... and he isn't even Catholic. But she has often spoken of how blessed she is to have him as a roommate... and I think she would be shocked that you would be concerned about her! No one could be more traditional or Catholic minded.... and there is NO scandal for any of us -- and some of our members were a little startled at first, I must admit... but we all are perfectly OK with it now that we understand.

Yes, for many people it might not be advisable.... if someone knows they are tempted, definitely, don't go there. If you aren't sure about the roommate or what the ground rules would be -- don't do it! And,if it would offend or shock someone of COURSE one should not do it - out of charity for that person if for no other reason.

One could made the argument, well, but aren't there female roommates out there? Couldn't she find someone else to live with? Well.. space is tight in my part of the world, and we have rent-control IF you don't move to a new space... but your houseing could go up $1000 or more PER MONTH if you tried to make that change. And finding the kind of person one wants to live with isn't always that easy.

And... gotta say this... there are also people of my own sex that I would NOT want to have as a roommate ... I would be as concerned with having a stranger of the same sex as I would be having one of the opposite sex.

Why? Because at one point I lived in a group living situation with only women.... and we later found out that two of them had been, uh. had been 'sharing' a room in a way we would not have been happy with had we known. (We found out after they moved out because they were bragging about how the had pulled the wool over our innocent eyes. Made us feel like idiots.) We hadn't chosen them -- the landlady found them when we needed extra roommates.... a wonderful, Catholic woman who encouraged us to take them when we were concerned because she "wanted to 'give a break' to those nice girls from the midwest who didn't know anyone, and needed a nice, traditional place to stay. You are trying to live as a Catholic community - won't you give them shelter for a few months?" Yeah.

After that point, I would NEVER have a housemate that I didn't feel comfortable sharing my space... but I learned that I would be just as likely to give consideration to a male who fit my values MUCH faster than a female who didn't. It just depends.

I also had friends living in dorms who had 'requests' to vacate the space so it could be used for 'activities' - and that in a Catholic school dormitory. She and I were shocked - and what was scarier was that her RA was shocked that we should be so scandalized... after all, she DID ask the roommate to leave before they started. Now THAT is what scandal looks like to me....

A related thought... I am a mid-50 year old woman who doesn't drive... and my husband works very odd hours. I live a fair distance away from the nearest bus line... including about 1 mile walk next to a park. So, if I need to come home when the busses aren't running, my friends - of both sexes - drive me home. And sometimes (horrors!) we sit out in their cars and talk... or I bring them into the house for hours at a time... sometimes into the early morning hours! Sometimes I serve them meals! If one wanted to look at this the wrong way, I supose I could be giving scandal... but my neighbors know me, and know I need the driver help. And we all respect each other. And I can guarantee you, there is NOTHING gong on.

So, now I will post this... and I'll be curious to see your reactions. I do respect those of you who wouldn't do this yourself, and certainly understand the ones who wouldn't want your son or daughter doing this. Everyone needs to decide this for themselves. But i have always thought it most impt to know the why I (and others) make decisions.... and to respect that sometimes there really is more than one good and holy answer to a question.

Blessings to all! Good discussion!

Edited April 14, 2012 by AnneLine

[Anomaly]

I was thinking about this earlier.
It seems to me that the average secularist wouldn't think anything if they knew a guy and girl living together as roommates because if they were boyfriend girlfriend they would be told that. However, scroupolus Catholics are scandalized because they think the worse and if told otherwise, they're just being lied to or it's only a matter of time before people are overcome with urges that can't be controlled.

That is just twisted.


And major props to you, AnneLine! It's about respect given to yourself and others.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Anomaly

[AnneLine]

Thanks, Anomaly, for your response.

I do think that there are MANY possible reactions to my post, and i am perfectly OK with people not agreeing with me, too...

I can learn from others as you all can from me from time to time. one of the marks of healthy community, IMHO. I've actually learned so much from so many of you that I hesitate sometimes to share...

( I do have to go off line for a few hours, howver, so don't feel you are being ignored if i don't respond to comments...)

[Jesus_lol]

I think you are right Anomaly. For most people, being told that a man and woman, or several of either, are rooming together would be a non issue(as in, so what? thats not interesting). at the most eventually someone might ask if there is anything going on, and upon being told "no" would be totally ok with it.

Whereas scrupulous Christians see an orgy behind every closed door it seems.

[AnneLine]

Now come on, guys.... there IS a potential for scandal and also for something to happen, so I can understand where the others are coming from....

[Lil Red]

what's the saying about to the impure nothing is pure?

found it: As to the pure all things are pure, even so to the impure all things are impure. Augustus Hare

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1334436021' post='2417823']
Thanks, Anomaly, for your response.

I do think that there are MANY possible reactions to my post, and i am perfectly OK with people not agreeing with me, too...

I can learn from others as you all can from me from time to time. one of the marks of healthy community, IMHO. I've actually learned so much from so many of you that I hesitate sometimes to share...

( I do have to go [b]off line[/b] for a few hours, howver, so don't feel you are being ignored if i don't respond to comments...)
[/quote]

So you went from Anne Line to Off-Line? Intriguing...

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1334433657' post='2417815']
I was thinking about this earlier.
It seems to me that the average secularist wouldn't think anything if they knew a guy and girl living together as roommates because if they were boyfriend girlfriend they would be told that. However, scroupolus Catholics are scandalized because they think the worse and if told otherwise, they're just being lied to or it's only a matter of time before people are overcome with urges that can't be controlled.

That is just twisted.
[/quote]

You're dead-on! Kudos!

[dominicansoul]

my Dominican sisters are neither twisted or impure...


...neither is Holy Mother Church...


...like I said before, there is a reason for concern, there is a reason to protect others from scandal... to the secularists, nothing really matters (i'm glad someone admitted that,) but to those who have a reason to protect others from scandal, (for example, two devout catholics, one a young lady, another a young man living together in the same house, even where no sin is involved---might cause scandal to those wishing to live in sin ---they will say, "well so and so who are holy rollers are doing it, why can't we?")

There is also a reason that I don't find most of y'all too scandalized by the thought of opposite sexes living together: you've been conditioned by the worldly point of view... (I find that is true in most of the topics having to do with sexuality, modesty, etc.)

it gives me a bit of evidence that in today's world, Catholics are thinking very much like secularists and there really isn't much of a difference between us on issues such as these...

...thus, the reason why I also mentioned, there is a total disappearance of "Catholic culture..."

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1334444380' post='2417875']
my Dominican sisters are neither twisted or impure...


...neither is Holy Mother Church...


...like I said before, there is a reason for concern, there is a reason to protect others from scandal... to the secularists, nothing really matters (i'm glad someone admitted that,) but to those who have a reason to protect others from scandal, (for example, two devout catholics, one a young lady, another a young man living together in the same house, even where no sin is involved---might cause scandal to those wishing to live in sin ---they will say, "well so and so who are holy rollers are doing it, why can't we?")

There is also a reason that I don't find most of y'all too scandalized by the thought of opposite sexes living together: you've been conditioned by the worldly point of view... (I find that is true in most of the topics having to do with sexuality, modesty, etc.)

it gives me a bit of evidence that in today's world, Catholics are thinking very much like secularists and there really isn't much of a difference between us on issues such as these...

...thus, the reason why I also mentioned, there is a total disappearance of "Catholic culture..."
[/quote]

LOL

you.are.funny.

[dominicansoul]

i think example is very important...since most of us don't evangelize like preachers on street corners, all we have is our actions..., and our actions sure do make impressions on others... (we think they don't but they do.)

when it comes to this particular decision, whether or not to live with the opposite sex, prudence is a gift of the Holy Spirit... i would definitely pray about it...and let Him decide...

[AnneLine]

Dominicansoul, I do hear what you are saying, and you are making a valid point as well.

I think there is room for both sides on this continuum.

My preference would be to live alone.... believe me! if i weren't called to marriage. I would HATE to have to live with a roommate, but if it were between a person who didn't share my values at all of the same sex and someone who did share my values and faith, it would be an easy question for me. For someone else, might be different, and it might make a difference what the local community's customs were.

I actually had a PRIEST ask me to take in a male housemate for a short while when one of our fellow students had no where to go between roommates/semesters. I was a little shocked, and even asked about the scandal thing, and he indicated that it wasn't something I should worry about IN THIS CASE. And this was a very traditional, holy priest, mind you! There just wasn't another option available at all.... and this guy needed a place to stay for a few weeks. It worked out OK. I wouldn't have liked it to go on for long, but more because I liked my space!

I respect the stance your sisters - and you - are taking on this, but as you say, it is something one needs to think and pray about and let God do the deciding... Sometimes, I think there are times when it is appropriate. But that is just me! You absolutely have the right -- and perhaps the obligation -- to choose differently.

And you and the Sisters are definitly not twisted or impure... you just have a different insight into this question. And the Sisters have a different standard of Chastity to keep.... although all of us are called to live out and promote this virtue, no doubt about it.

Edited April 14, 2012 by AnneLine

[cmotherofpirl]

Scandal can be in the eyes of the beholder. To presume people are sinning without evidence is also a sin

[AnneLine]

Yup, AnneLine has to go off-line sometimes... and sometimes she is just off! I just didn't want anyone to think I was being huffy & refusing to respond if I didn't reply. And... I need to go off-line again pretty quickly, because I have to do some stuff while there is still daylight here...

My housework has been suffering TERRIBLY since I got the extra props.... I need to develop some discipline or I won't get anything done... I'll just PHATmass all day given the option.... oh no!

Good discussion, people!

[Maggyie]

This is an issue of cultural standards, not religious ones, there is no commandment against opposite sex housemates (obviously) the key is to determine whether within your culture you will cause comment and be setting a bad example.

For instance, in some cultures, dressing modestly for a woman requires wearing a veil or even a burqa. In other cultures modesty does not require covering the hair or face and includes wearing pantaloons or swimsuits (in appropriate circumstances).

When I was in my last years of college I lived in a boarding house. At first there were five other girls living there. In my last quarter one of the downstairs rooms was let to a boy. I didn't have much interaction with him (I lived upstairs) but we did share a kitchen. None of the girls was overcome by temptation (especially because boys tend to be slobby in the kitchen and make others very sad when they have to clean up after them). No one was scandalized as this is something that happens in boarding houses especially around a university.

Keep in mind that it also used to be considered scandalous for a couple to be in public without a chaperone (remember Gone with the Wind?) that standard no longer applies, because our culture has changed.

[vee]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1334447202' post='2417892']
This is an issue of cultural standards, not religious ones,
[/quote]

I disagree. For Catholics we are Catholic first, that is to be our primary culture.