How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337577516' post='2433194']
the trickle down effect does not work. profits for the rich continue to go up but they are not highering. today they are getting less people to do more work. more profits, less people, you do the math. tell me how that is helping the economy.

imade the point that paul ryan's budget isabout helping the rich and hurting the poor. paul ryan wants to decrease so called entitlements and give more money to the military. although here's the kicker, the military is not asking for more money. do you want to know paul ryans response? he believes the military is afraid to tell them they need more money. so his thought is they need more money but they are so scared they are unable to tell them. come on give me a break. that reasoning is off the wall.

(this part deals with financial and not social issues)the fact is conservativism by itself does not. liberalism by itself does not work. niether by itself works. comprimise works. both sides of the aisle have goodideas and both havehorrible ideas. although right now the republican party is in the mindset of absolutly no comprimise and that is hurting everyone. not saying liberals are all for comprimise either because they are not.

also any catholic who voted obamawas dead wrong. he is for abortion, gay marriage unmorality in the world. mitt romney is not mr morality himself, although because he is trying to appease conservatives, he is the more moral choice because at the end of the day that is the one area conservatives are 100% right and that is social issues relating to abortion and gay marriage.
[/quote]

Havok I will not waste time arguing with you as your mind is already made up. There is an old quote often wrongly attributed to Winston Churchill that reminds me of the youth see here, " If your not a liberal at 25 years old you have no heart, if your not conservative by the time you turn 35 then you have no brain." The only thing you wrote that I can agree with is that Mitt Romney is the more moral choice. I am 52 years old and have lived through Jimmy Carter's failed liberal agenda as president, hearing at the time it would " take 3 generations of americans to pay off the debt and turn around the country" then came along a staunch constitional conservative Ronald Reagen preaching trickle down economics, business boomed, the debt was paid off, unemployment was at record lows, tax breaks inspired big business and small business owners alike to do what america does best, produce, this produce caused jobs to be created, unions expanded and everyone did well and teh country rode the economic boon right through Reagen;s 2 terms as president and Bush seniors 1 term. Then we got Clinton who slowly stifled business and cunningly hid failing companies and set the economy into recesssion. Bush junior took over and tax breaks again sparked american business and unemployment was down to 5% and we did well through his first term and half his second term. Then liberals Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reed took over the house and senate and programs that gave away homes to people with no credit or ability to pay back the loans they received caused the economy to falter, the whole time the media blaming it on Bush, the youth vote at the time taking their info from liberal school teachers and trusted? sources such as Bill Maher and John Stewart and MTV heard about how Bush ruined the economy, this while unemployment was still at 5% even after a devastating terrorist attack and going to war, with unanimous approval of both sides of the house and senate, the economy still held fast. Bush senior put liberal Rangle's housing policies 12 times before the senate asking for the program to be fixed as the unpaid mortagages were ruining the housing market. Then we had the "saviour" Obama come along and his 3 failed years in office he managed to destroy the free market, how can I say this? We have 2 major car companies owned by the government by all accounts, ridiculous green programs taxing industry, businesses hesitant to expand on two accounts, unknown taxes and cost of prviding health care and we are plunged into the worst recession since the great depression, which by the way was the longest lasting depression ever in the world, america being the last country to emerge from it after almost 12 years under the watch of liberal Roosevelt. This was a world wide depression that the rest of the world emerged after 4-6 years from but his liberal work programs and such kept america in the depression state until the world war and retooling and spending brought business, jobs and success back to america. You will not hear this from your average socialist/communist dope smoking hippie professor that has been entrenched in the education system for the last 30 years though. There are real history books that were written before things like "wiki" came along that can be written by you or I and cited the same way, re-writing history as we see fit. The media controls this country, a man like Herman Cain was forced to retire from the presidential race due to unsubstantiated allegations which were ruining his family life, which by the way have you noticed that all these raped and abused women have disappeared from public attention now that he is gone, where are the prosecutors and lawyers? They are happy that the most credible threat to Obama, a conservative who the "race card" would not be an issue with was forced to quit by the media and the uninformed. This decade has produced some of the brightest, yet most gullible youth ever to draw breath in the history of america. People who put no more thought into a subject than the 30 second sound bite from Snoop Dog, or Tom Cruise or the likes of professional clowns such as Maher and Stewart, remember these last two trusted sources started as comedians. You think the other side has some great ideas, re-elect Obama and watch us slide towards total collapse due to Obama-care, his plans to bankrupt the coal industry, which provides us with 85% of our electricity, whic he stated as a senator would likely cause the electric rates to rise 8-10 times. Besides special rights for gays, unlimited abortions paid for by you and me and whatever religion we are into, same sex marriage, ridiculous business killing green taxes, what other good ideas do liberals have?

ed

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1337664007' post='2433591']
Havok I will not waste time arguing with you as your mind is already made up. There is an old quote often wrongly attributed to Winston Churchill that reminds me of the youth see here, " If your not a liberal at 25 years old you have no heart, if your not conservative by the time you turn 35 then you have no brain." The only thing you wrote that I can agree with is that Mitt Romney is the more moral choice. I am 52 years old and have lived through Jimmy Carter's failed liberal agenda as president, hearing at the time it would " take 3 generations of americans to pay off the debt and turn around the country" then came along a staunch constitional conservative Ronald Reagen preaching trickle down economics, business boomed, the debt was paid off, unemployment was at record lows, tax breaks inspired big business and small business owners alike to do what america does best, produce, this produce caused jobs to be created, unions expanded and everyone did well and teh country rode the economic boon right through Reagen;s 2 terms as president and Bush seniors 1 term. Then we got Clinton who slowly stifled business and cunningly hid failing companies and set the economy into recesssion. Bush junior took over and tax breaks again sparked american business and unemployment was down to 5% and we did well through his first term and half his second term. Then liberals Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reed took over the house and senate and programs that gave away homes to people with no credit or ability to pay back the loans they received caused the economy to falter, the whole time the media blaming it on Bush, the youth vote at the time taking their info from liberal school teachers and trusted? sources such as Bill Maher and John Stewart and MTV heard about how Bush ruined the economy, this while unemployment was still at 5% even after a devastating terrorist attack and going to war, with unanimous approval of both sides of the house and senate, the economy still held fast. Bush senior put liberal Rangle's housing policies 12 times before the senate asking for the program to be fixed as the unpaid mortagages were ruining the housing market. Then we had the "saviour" Obama come along and his 3 failed years in office he managed to destroy the free market, how can I say this? We have 2 major car companies owned by the government by all accounts, ridiculous green programs taxing industry, businesses hesitant to expand on two accounts, unknown taxes and cost of prviding health care and we are plunged into the worst recession since the great depression, which by the way was the longest lasting depression ever in the world, america being the last country to emerge from it after almost 12 years under the watch of liberal Roosevelt. This was a world wide depression that the rest of the world emerged after 4-6 years from but his liberal work programs and such kept america in the depression state until the world war and retooling and spending brought business, jobs and success back to america. You will not hear this from your average socialist/communist dope smoking hippie professor that has been entrenched in the education system for the last 30 years though. There are real history books that were written before things like "wiki" came along that can be written by you or I and cited the same way, re-writing history as we see fit. The media controls this country, a man like Herman Cain was forced to retire from the presidential race due to unsubstantiated allegations which were ruining his family life, which by the way have you noticed that all these raped and abused women have disappeared from public attention now that he is gone, where are the prosecutors and lawyers? They are happy that the most credible threat to Obama, a conservative who the "race card" would not be an issue with was forced to quit by the media and the uninformed. This decade has produced some of the brightest, yet most gullible youth ever to draw breath in the history of america. People who put no more thought into a subject than the 30 second sound bite from Snoop Dog, or Tom Cruise or the likes of professional clowns such as Maher and Stewart, remember these last two trusted sources started as comedians. You think the other side has some great ideas, re-elect Obama and watch us slide towards total collapse due to Obama-care, his plans to bankrupt the coal industry, which provides us with 85% of our electricity, whic he stated as a senator would likely cause the electric rates to rise 8-10 times. Besides special rights for gays, unlimited abortions paid for by you and me and whatever religion we are into, same sex marriage, ridiculous business killing green taxes, what other good ideas do liberals have?

ed
[/quote]

regan did not pay off the debt, he increased it. it was one ofthe things he regretted. [In order to cover newly spawned federal budget deficits, the United States borrowed heavily both domestically and abroad, raising the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt"]national debt[/url] from $997 billion to $2.85 trillion.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-156"][size="2"][157][/size][/url][/sup] Reagan described the new debt as the "greatest disappointment" of his presidency.][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-Cannon128-132"][size="2"][133]][/size][/url]- [/sup]
[sup]-source wiki[/sup]

also if the republican part was this incredible party that had all the answers they would all get re-elected and america would never have any problems.

i was younger and i was liberal. then i got older and was a conservative. now i am even older and realize no one political party is right. this just baffles me from both sides of the isle. both repbulicans and democrats believe they are 100% right, everything they do is best for the country,comprimise only hurts the country and if their party could just get full control(which both parties have had in the past) everything would be fine(which it never is). people are so entrenched in their way of thinking, they assume if they comprimise then they are admitting they are wrong and they can't have that. comprimise is a good thing. its the only way this country will get back on track.

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1337654888' post='2433485']
They are not necessarily humane for the prisoners, do a little google searching. [url="http://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights/supermax-prisons-cruel-inhuman-and-degrading"]http://www.aclu.org/...n-and-degrading[/url]

Don't let me color all your ideas with my bias. Also do a little google searching on the safety of the guards as well.

It's fine to think they're safe, clean, effective, and a good place to work if you don't have to be in one or work in one.

Facts might not change your mind, that's a reasonable difference of opinion, but don't discount other opinions based on limited awareness.


It's not all about your personal safety. Read a bit more of the Catechism. [color=#0000ff][b]in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - [u]without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself [/u][/b][/color]

A person who has mental problems to start with, is then put into an environment that causes more damage to his mental capacity, is pretty much taking away the possibiltiy of redeeming himself. That is something to consider.
[/quote]

This is called restorative justice. The USCCB covers it pretty well on their website under life issues.

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337692890' post='2433642']
regan did not pay off the debt, he increased it. it was one ofthe things he regretted. [In order to cover newly spawned federal budget deficits, the United States borrowed heavily both domestically and abroad, raising the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt"]national debt[/url] from $997 billion to $2.85 trillion.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-156"][size=2][157][/size][/url][/sup] Reagan described the new debt as the "greatest disappointment" of his presidency.][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#cite_note-Cannon128-132"][size=2][133]][/size][/url]- [/sup]
[sup]-source wiki[/sup]

also if the republican part was this incredible party that had all the answers they would all get re-elected and america would never have any problems.

i was younger and i was liberal. then i got older and was a conservative. now i am even older and realize no one political party is right. this just baffles me from both sides of the isle. both repbulicans and democrats believe they are 100% right, everything they do is best for the country,comprimise only hurts the country and if their party could just get full control(which both parties have had in the past) everything would be fine(which it never is). people are so entrenched in their way of thinking, they assume if they comprimise then they are admitting they are wrong and they can't have that. comprimise is a good thing. its the only way this country will get back on track.
[/quote]
Compromise, schlompromise.

Both parties are much too liberal, much too statist, and and borrow and spend obscene amounts of money.

And, imho, "conservatives" have already compromised way too much already. The Democrats keep moving ever leftward, while the Republicans keep compromising, gradually playing catch-up to them. Look at the current GOP "leadership." Soon-to-be presidential nominee Romney is hardly conservative, nor is the utterly spineless Boehner.

Bush spent like a drunken sailor, while Obama spends like a teen girl at the mall with her daddy's credit card, and wants to spend even more.

If the Republicans would spend us $10 trillion into debt, and the Democrats $20 trillion, I hardly think a debt of $15 trillion is the magic number to fix our crisis.

At least Reagan was deeply disappointed by the $2.8 trillion debt, which is utterly dwarfed by the $16 trillion+ debt under Obama, which Dear Leader seems quite blithely unconcerned about.

The idea that "compromise" is always the ideal is an incredibly stupid and thoughtless one, though sadly common.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Socrates

[dairygirl4u2c]

actually not compromising is what is stupid. we live in a pluralistic society. we have no option but to compromise. if we don't, the federal pig trough of the federal debt will continue to mount, as it's always the easy way out when no one can agree to anything.
what's sad is that it's the way out as things stand now... even when people do agree to things, ie, let's go into debt.
things like the debt commission that obama started... it's a start. it didn't fix the problem but you have to start some where.
i just hope it's not the case as it probably is, that things won't change until there's fiscal crisis on the streets.
but you do have to start somewhere. and any solution would require compromise.
perhaps the best option is one that would not be compromised... but that is not at all realistic.

Edited May 23, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

what's unfortunate is that we probably won't solve our fiscal problems by compromising.... but we also won't solve em by not compromising.

when there is chaos in the streets though, you can rest assured that any solutions etc will be had through compromise. there is really no other way. (or God help us we can actually fix the fiscal crisis, also through compromise)

Edited May 23, 2012 by dairygirl4u2c

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1337813437' post='2434113']
Compromise, schlompromise.

Both parties are much too liberal, much too statist, and and borrow and spend obscene amounts of money.

And, imho, "conservatives" have already compromised way too much already. The Democrats keep moving ever leftward, while the Republicans keep compromising, gradually playing catch-up to them. Look at the current GOP "leadership." Soon-to-be presidential nominee Romney is hardly conservative, nor is the utterly spineless Boehner.

Bush spent like a drunken sailor, while Obama spends like a teen girl at the mall with her daddy's credit card, and wants to spend even more.

If the Republicans would spend us $10 trillion into debt, and the Democrats $20 trillion, I hardly think a debt of $15 trillion is the magic number to fix our crisis.

At least Reagan was deeply disappointed by the $2.8 trillion debt, which is utterly dwarfed by the $16 trillion+ debt under Obama, which Dear Leader seems quite blithely unconcerned about.

The idea that "compromise" is always the ideal is an incredibly stupid and thoughtless one, though sadly common.
[/quote]

republicans are comprimising.... are you serious? i really dont like the democrats but its a flat out falsehood to say the republicans have comprimised to much. they have not comprimised on nearly everything.

no one is comprimising. if not comprimising is he solution like you seem to indicate, then this country will only get worse. both republicans and democarts have had all the power and niether made the utopia they both would have you believe they can make if they just get all he power.

without comprimise this country will sink further and further into debt and the economy will continue to decline. but i guess we can continue to do what we have done in the past. give republicans all the power and then it falls. then give democrats all the power and then it falls. rinse and repeat. or we can try something else and try to come together to fix this economy. although that's unlikely to happen with the democrats and republicans... yes republicans inability to comprimise.

[kujo]

Not to put words into the dear mouth of Socrates, but I'm pretty sure he's speaking more about how the Republican Party of the last 2 decades have occupied themselves by compromising the principles of conservativism (i.e.- federalism, fiscal restraint, etc.).

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1337832863' post='2434233']
republicans are comprimising.... are you serious? i really dont like the democrats but its a flat out falsehood to say the republicans have comprimised to much. they have not comprimised on nearly everything.

no one is comprimising. if not comprimising is he solution like you seem to indicate, then this country will only get worse. both republicans and democarts have had all the power and niether made the utopia they both would have you believe they can make if they just get all he power.

without comprimise this country will sink further and further into debt and the economy will continue to decline. but i guess we can continue to do what we have done in the past. give republicans all the power and then it falls. then give democrats all the power and then it falls. rinse and repeat. or we can try something else and try to come together to fix this economy. although that's unlikely to happen with the democrats and republicans... yes republicans inability to comprimise.
[/quote]
What specific compromises do you think Republicans need to make with the Democrats?

All of the current Democratic Party policies are a mess, and should be avoided as much as possible, though I'm aware liberals think otherwise.

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1337838255' post='2434319']
Not to put words into the dear mouth of Socrates, but I'm pretty sure he's speaking more about how the Republican Party of the last 2 decades have occupied themselves by compromising the principles of conservativism (i.e.- federalism, fiscal restraint, etc.).
[/quote]
That's a pretty accurate summation.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Socrates

[Ice_nine]

asses and elephants

[dairygirl4u2c]

[img]http://plinkplunk.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/explanation-motivational-poster.jpg[/img]

[spiritual]

[b]I am a "Faithful" Servant of God & my Savior Jesus Christ. I was born & raised Catholic, but have Not been an active member for Many years. I Pray, Read my Bible, Meditate, & remain steadfast in my journey of being the Woman that God created me to be.[/b] [b]However, I do have a problem with the Church & their 'Politics'. How can the Strongest Religion in the world condemn So many people for So many things? Am I mistaken or didn't Jesus die on the Cross for my sins (and all of yours)? It took me 40 years, 10 years of that in abuse and addiction,[/b] [b]to realize that if I truly was sincere in my repentence that I would be forgiven. The Church did not do that, my Faith in God did that. Growing up the only thing the church taught me was how I would go to Hell if I broke Any Commandments, now I know that to be Very Misleading. So today I have a Relationship with my Holy Father-NOT a Religion. Religions make their own rules, yet in the end we All will have to answer to God-if you went today how many of you would truly be ready......ready to say that, yes you helped your fellow man at every oppurtunity, yes you did Not judge or condemn your fellow man, etc., So how can so many of you Claim to be a "Faithful Catholic"? [/b]
[b] How religious is it to have politicians in your pockets, only if they[/b] [b]will vote your way on certain issues? How religious is it to pressure politics about contraceptives & abortion when "male" contraceptives (ie: condoms, Viagra, Cialis, Penis Enlargement Treatments) are never mentioned in these talks (when it is proven that birth control also helps an aray of health problems & the above 'male' items are basically available only to have sex)? AND, last but definitely Not least, How Religious is it for the CC to condemn & judge birth control or abortion when it Continually has hidden & moved around the Pedophile Clergy? Why are they Still in Service? That's an answer I would Love to hear from the Vatican itself, but they have So many Problems going for them right now, like Finances & Secrecy don't they?![/b]
[b] Will the "Faithful Catholics" step up & take in the Children born from women unable to care for them OR from women that were 'Raped' if abortion is outlawed? And will Any of you have Any Conscience at all about the women dying, either from suicide or botched back alley abortions if outlawed? You all talk the "good Christian" talk, but I have Not seen very many do the "good Christian" walk! Remember, just b/c you are 'catholic' & go to church does Not mean you won't be Judged as well & go to Heaven, just like going to a bakery does not make me a baker! Live as God intended & ask forgiveness when needed[/b][b]. Not as the church intends with No forgiveness.[/b]
[b] (p.s. Sorry. But has the church ever taken a poll to see how many 'good catholics' use birth control, have had abortions, have had sex out of wedlock, are homosexual OR Pediphiles?? They are either deceiving themselves or are totally out of touch with reality if they think that None of their church going faithful have Never done Anything against their beliefs!)[/b] [b]So keep your Sanctimonious laws out of my life & never dare to tell me that your faith in God is Any better than mine just b/c you're catholic [/b][b]& go to church.[/b]
[b] Thank You & May God Bless Everyone[/b]

[b](And that's how a Faithful Child of God can be a Democrat--never judge or condemn, that's God's job!)[/b]

[Winchester]

Waste of words, that.

[sixpence]

people usually begin rants like that in their own new thread...but welcome to PM nonetheless

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='spiritual' timestamp='1338826615' post='2440598']
[b]I am a "Faithful" Servant of God & my Savior Jesus Christ. I was born & raised Catholic, but have Not been an active member for Many years. I Pray, Read my Bible, Meditate, & remain steadfast in my journey of being the Woman that God created me to be.[/b] [b]However, I do have a problem with the Church & their 'Politics'. How can the Strongest Religion in the world condemn So many people for So many things? Am I mistaken or didn't Jesus die on the Cross for my sins (and all of yours)? It took me 40 years, 10 years of that in abuse and addiction,[/b] [b]to realize that if I truly was sincere in my repentence that I would be forgiven. The Church did not do that, my Faith in God did that. Growing up the only thing the church taught me was how I would go to Hell if I broke Any Commandments, now I know that to be Very Misleading. So today I have a Relationship with my Holy Father-NOT a Religion. Religions make their own rules, yet in the end we All will have to answer to God-if you went today how many of you would truly be ready......ready to say that, yes you helped your fellow man at every oppurtunity, yes you did Not judge or condemn your fellow man, etc., So how can so many of you Claim to be a "Faithful Catholic"? [/b]
[b] How religious is it to have politicians in your pockets, only if they[/b] [b]will vote your way on certain issues? How religious is it to pressure politics about contraceptives & abortion when "male" contraceptives (ie: condoms, Viagra, Cialis, Penis Enlargement Treatments) are never mentioned in these talks (when it is proven that birth control also helps an aray of health problems & the above 'male' items are basically available only to have sex)? AND, last but definitely Not least, How Religious is it for the CC to condemn & judge birth control or abortion when it Continually has hidden & moved around the Pedophile Clergy? Why are they Still in Service? That's an answer I would Love to hear from the Vatican itself, but they have So many Problems going for them right now, like Finances & Secrecy don't they?![/b]
[b] Will the "Faithful Catholics" step up & take in the Children born from women unable to care for them OR from women that were 'Raped' if abortion is outlawed? And will Any of you have Any Conscience at all about the women dying, either from suicide or botched back alley abortions if outlawed? You all talk the "good Christian" talk, but I have Not seen very many do the "good Christian" walk! Remember, just b/c you are 'catholic' & go to church does Not mean you won't be Judged as well & go to Heaven, just like going to a bakery does not make me a baker! Live as God intended & ask forgiveness when needed[/b][b]. Not as the church intends with No forgiveness.[/b]
[b] (p.s. Sorry. But has the church ever taken a poll to see how many 'good catholics' use birth control, have had abortions, have had sex out of wedlock, are homosexual OR Pediphiles?? They are either deceiving themselves or are totally out of touch with reality if they think that None of their church going faithful have Never done Anything against their beliefs!)[/b] [b]So keep your Sanctimonious laws out of my life & never dare to tell me that your faith in God is Any better than mine just b/c you're catholic [/b][b]& go to church.[/b]
[b] Thank You & May God Bless Everyone[/b]

[b](And that's how a Faithful Child of God can be a Democrat--never judge or condemn, that's God's job!)[/b]
[/quote]

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this one, but, here it goes:

The problem you have here is you mistake the Catholic Church for making up its own rules. The Catholic Church was instituted by Christ himself. Jesus Christ calls the shots through the infallibility of the Pope, not any man capable of theological error. If you'd like to take a look around at the "Bible Alone" Christians, you would notice how not two of them can completely agree with each other. This is because they are going off their own interpretation, despite having no authority nor proper training of Greek and Latin to do that. The Catholic Church has two thousand years of history and all of the Church Fathers as its sources, and their sources came from the men they followed, more specifically, men who knew Christ personally. Bible Alone Christians have a twenty dollar Bible and the capability to read the Bible in English - a very dangerous language to read the Bible in since it doesn't have a lot of key words Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew have, which means it is a very imperfect translation since these are the languages the Bible was written in. This is why you need to learn your Greek at the very least, and this is why Protestants have incorrect interpretations that aren't even close to the original text.

And welcome to Phatmass. I hope you enjoy it here.

Edited June 4, 2012 by FuturePriest387