How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[4588686]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1336872120' post='2430121']
Possibly less than have been killed by abortion in a single day.
[/quote]

That's interesting. I think that Bentham and MIll will be excited to learn that the Catholic Church has adopted utilitarianism.

[havok579257]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1336940421' post='2430253']
Gee I guess spades shouldn't have been called spades in Germany in the 1930's. No Catholic should have condemned him or called him on his atrocities as it would not of furthered the conversation. Just act as if the gas chambers weren't killing every day and have a nice civil discussion about them. Abortion is what it is. As for your claims about the death penalty there is room for disagreement on that one in the Church. The Church does recognize the right of governments to keep order. There has been no infallible statement that has come out concerning implementation of the death penalty. I personally am in agreement with JPII that it is not needed in most modern societies but do not quible with Catholics who think it is still needed. You really shouldn't speak for Catholicism if you don't understand it.

Abortion mills are killing every day. MILLIONS!! People are not being executed nearly as often. Further the executions are not of the innocent. It is really apples and oranges.
[/quote]
your really comparing catholic democrats on THIS site with Hitler? Czause your talking to people online on Phatmass,not the entire world. Do you think anyone on here will actually listen to your arguements or consider your points on here when you compare them to Hitler? You just trying to start something and obviously have no intention of trying to change minds and hearts here on phatmass.

Oh and now personal attacks on my knowledge of catholic faith. Grow up, seriously. Your acting childish. Don't agree with what I say and you figure best route is personal attacks.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336796332' post='2429985']


im not a democrat, i would NEVER vote for Obama and I will not vote democrat. So why was this directed towards me?
[/quote]Because you cried like a little girl in a knee jerk reaction, questioning why no mean things were said also about them meanie Republicans. Groo was examining the published platform of a specific political prty that states it is For Anortion, For Same Sec Marrige, etc . that is directly and clearly against what Catholic Church has identified as mon-negotiables.

I apologize if you're 16 and haven't hAd the chance to develop maturity to see I didn't intimate you voted for or will vote for Obama.

It seems Groo's question is how can a Catholic identify as being a member of a political party whose express principles include goals that conflict with Catholic non-negotiables.

Some answered there are practical reasons to identify as a member and where willing to discuss the validity of these practical reasons.

Others, whined why is Groo picking on just one party and are getting their panties wadded up. That plays off as being overly defensive, especially considering that of the two major political parties, only one had published clear statements defending abortion.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336947367' post='2430285']
Because you cried like a little girl in a knee jerk reaction, questioning why no mean things were said also about them meanie Republicans. Groo was examining the published platform of a specific political prty that states it is For Anortion, For Same Sec Marrige, etc . that is directly and clearly against what Catholic Church has identified as mon-negotiables.

I apologize if you're 16 and haven't hAd the chance to develop maturity to see I didn't intimate you voted for or will vote for Obama.

It seems Groo's question is how can a Catholic identify as being a member of a political party whose express principles include goals that conflict with Catholic non-negotiables.

Some answered there are practical reasons to identify as a member and where willing to discuss the validity of these practical reasons.

Others, whined why is Groo picking on just one party and are getting their panties wadded up. That plays off as being overly defensive, especially considering that of the two major political parties, only one had published clear statements defending abortion.
[/quote]

So i'm 16 an immature but personal attacks are mature? You resort to personal attacks and name calling. When people do this it shows theyhave no leg to stand on and can not offer up anything worth while and so there only response is to name call and try personal attacks. I never attacked you and called you names. Cause its something a catholic website should notstand for. Although you are not catholic, so maybe you don't understand how a catholic and a catholic website should act. Love thy neighbor. Not insult them and try personal attacks against them.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336943495' post='2430270']
Do you think anyone on here will actually listen to your arguements or consider your points on here when you compare them to Hitler?
[/quote]

I thought drawing correlations between the things I disagree with and Hitler/Nazism was kinda the whole purpose of Phatmass?

Edited May 14, 2012 by kujo

[kujo]

Since I've got an audience of "faithful Catholics" --we won't get into the nebulous definition of THAT phrase-- let me ask you: do you guys ever get tired of having Republicans exploit your unwavering anti-abortion belief? It's like you are a marionette and their vacuous rhetoric is them tugging your arms and legs. I'm not saying I am pro-choice--I am VERY pro-life, as my friends on here and else where will testify-- but I gotta say, I get really tired of being jerked around by politicians who have [b]ZERO[/b] intention of doing a beaver dam thing about this issue once they're actually in office.

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336947367' post='2430285']
Because you cried like a little girl in a knee jerk reaction...
[/quote]

Hey, don't be a sexist twit! Little boys cry too! Hell, miKolbe got all damp-eyed when we parted ways after a few brews in February!

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336947367' post='2430285']

Others, whined why is Groo picking on just one party and are getting their panties wadded up. That plays off as being overly defensive, especially considering that of the two major political parties, only one had published clear statements defending abortion.
[/quote]

That's interesting. I didn't realize that the only thing that the Church was morally opposed to was abortion.

[MIKolbe]

Oh here comes the social justice junk....

[kujo]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1336956994' post='2430312']
Oh here comes the social justice junk....
[/quote]

Poor minorities say hi

(Actually, they say "hola" and other ethnic things)

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1336956956' post='2430311']


That's interesting. I didn't realize that the only thing that the Church was morally opposed to was abortion.
[/quote]It seems to me tht Groo was specifically discussing specific published values espoused by the Democrat party. He, nor I was comparing political parties or their published platforms.

It is silly and unnecessarily defensive to respond to questioning or assumed criticism by making changing the conversation to a comparison.

Though you're not Catholic, you seem to know much about Catholicsm. Are you saying that there are principles the Drmocratic party professes that outweigh their stance on abortion?

(havoc, I've been posting in phatmass far longer than most people here. I know how this Catholic site works. I've earned my suspensions over the years. Two words, "man up". )

Edited May 14, 2012 by Anomaly

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1336956804' post='2430309']
Since I've got an audience of "faithful Catholics" --we won't get into the nebulous definition of THAT phrase-- let me ask you: do you guys ever get tired of having Republicans exploit your unwavering anti-abortion belief? It's like you are a marionette and their vacuous rhetoric is them tugging your arms and legs. I'm not saying I am pro-choice--I am VERY pro-life, as my friends on here and else where will testify-- but I gotta say, I get really tired of being jerked around by politicians who have [b]ZERO[/b] intention of doing a beaver dam thing about this issue once they're actually in office.
[/quote]Though not Catholic, personally I prioritize right to life as top. If you're dead, nothing else seems as important. I would think on a practical level, Catholics would agree. Society needs to be ordered and fair and protect the least able. Infants, whether born or unborn, sappear the most in need of protection.

[BG45]

The conscience of the individual is where the culpability lies, as Missy said, not in marking a D or an R on a slip of paper. Mitt [url="http://massresistance.org/romney/pp_survey_2002/index.html"]"buffer zone to protect abortion clinics" [/url]Romney and Barack "[url="http://nation.foxnews.com/roe-v-wade/2012/01/23/obama-roe-v-wade-helps-our-daughters-fulfill-their-dreams"]Roe v. Wade enables our daughters to fulfill their dreams[/url]" Obama shows that.

If we want to pick at how neither party really does what they claim, we could be here until the Lord returns or we die of old age, whichever happens first.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1336941268' post='2430260']
That's interesting. I think that Bentham and MIll will be excited to learn that the Catholic Church has adopted utilitarianism.
[/quote]

I laughed. :heh:

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1336956956' post='2430311']
That's interesting. I didn't realize that the only thing that the Church was morally opposed to was abortion.
[/quote]As Anomaly pointed out, the Church places them in a hierarchy of importance. Abortion and euthanasia are at the top of that list because they deal with the innocent and with the most fundamental issue, the right to life. Abortion incidentally is about protecting the most amount of people, so when choosing between two bad options we have to go that route. In this case it's not Utilitarianism, but prioritizing.


Saying that Catholics should give equal priority to other issues like supporting the poor or minorities is misleading for two reasons:

1) While the government has the responsibility of protecting the rights of the poor, how to do it is a matter of prudence. Likewise citizens can act in the meantime to protect their rights. There is no question of how abortion ought to be treated. It must be outlawed period. Certainly we can try to limit abortion as citizens, but so long as people think it is a right (and some think it is a responsibility) our response must be different. Because of this attitude the government is required to make a firmer stand against abortion. As citizens we are not able to protect the rights of the unborn in the same way as we can protect the rights of the poor or minorities.

2) As I said above, the right to life is prior to all other rights in nature and in importance. Without the one the other will not be an issue (nature). The right to life is a higher right than a standard of living. While Catholic teaching says that we ought to work for a good standard of living for all, this is not truly part of the pro-life agenda. They're obviously inseparable, but they cannot be conflated into one.

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1336958861' post='2430334']
Though not Catholic, personally I prioritize right to life as top. If you're dead, nothing else seems as important. I would think on a practical level, Catholics would agree. Society needs to be ordered and fair and protect the least able. Infants, whether born or unborn, sappear the most in need of protection.
[/quote]

So, in your world, the unborn are deserving of the most protection. Who gets the 2nd most protection? Who gets the least?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1336960714' post='2430356']
So, in your world, the unborn are deserving of the most protection. Who gets the 2nd most protection? Who gets the least?
[/quote]I know this wasn't directed my way, but I think the innocent deserve protection from the worst evil first. Nothing is worse than the evil of intentionally taking an innocent person's life, except intentionally taking the lives of multiple innocent people.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1336960714' post='2430356']


So, in your world, the unborn are deserving of the most protection. Who gets the 2nd most protection? Who gets the least?
[/quote]Children next, elderly, persons with the least ability to care for themselves. It's a tough struggle fore mere existence.

[4588686]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1336961048' post='2430362']
I know this wasn't directed my way, but I think the innocent deserve protection from the worst evil first. Nothing is worse than the evil of intentionally taking an innocent person's life, except intentionally taking the lives of multiple innocent people.
[/quote]

1-How are unborn children innocent? They are marked with original sin, yes?

2-The issue in question was innocent men being executed. The response was that far more innocents are killed vie abortion then the death penalty, which is a utilitarian argument.

[kujo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1336964708' post='2430393']


1-How are unborn children innocent? They are marked with original sin, yes?

2-The issue in question was innocent men being executed. The response was that far more innocents are killed vie abortion then the death penalty, which is a utilitarian argument.
[/quote]

"Innocent" is an emotionally-charged word meant to conjure up feelings of sympathy. It's a tactic no different than the one used by pro-choice people justifying abortions on the basis of rape and incest. It's misleading and illogical.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1336964708' post='2430393']
1-How are unborn children innocent? They are marked with original sin, yes?[/quote]While we are all born with the stain of original sin, original sin most properly corresponds to our relationship with God. Original sin is a general condition of humanity, which means we all partake in it. As such, it's not our place to determine actions on that basis. If we could, then all unbaptized people could be fair game (sorry to take it to the absurd extreme, but it's the true consequence of acting based on original sin).

The innocence of unborn children is determined in this case by their innocence with respect to us. Innocence in this context means a person who has done no wrong, particularly against the agressor.

Since Kujo responded before I finished, "innocent" is a technical term used by Catholic moral theologians and extends well beyond this instance. If you want I can give you times when it's used. Murder happens to be one and is a due circumstance surrounding the act of killing. Killing an innocent person is murder. Killing an agressor is not (normally). It's a very technical term. If you want I can give more explanation how unborn children are more innocent, but it's not necessary because they also suffer the greatest evil (depravity of life), which is much graver than standard of living.

[quote]2-The issue in question was innocent men being executed. The response was that far more innocents are killed vie abortion then the death penalty, which is a utilitarian argument.
[/quote]I will concede that Catholics can take a utilitarian approach to theology, but there are a few reasons why I don't think that utilitarianism applies here. Utilitarianism (I know Mill best) says that all actions should be directed toward the greatest amount of happiness for the greatest people. In the case of the state killing an innocent man utilitarianism might argue that the killing is the right course of action, particularly if it will keep the wronged party (obviously not wronged by him) from killing multiple people. Utilitarianism might also argue for abortion even if it is killing because it makes more people happy (causes a greater amount of pleasure for more people).

Catholic moral teaching says that we ought to act on behalf of all the innocent, but in the case of the innocent man being put to death we have to take into account that it is the government performing the action (and it is on the state level), but we also have a greater chance of intercession on their behalf.

Lastly, the death penalty is not immoral in itself. Abortion is.

As an aside, while Bush was president did the national death penalty rate go up? Exclude Texas because it was governed by Perry.