How Can A Faithful Catholic Be A Democrat?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Since a batch of buttknuckles turned this into a question of which right is the most important....let me state this. Try to argue if you wish...good luck.

NO other right, defined by God, the Church, Man, or the State takes precedence over life.
1. dead people cannot marry, regardless of sex
2. dead people cannot vote, regardless of age
3. dead people cannot emigrate/immigrate to/from any country
4. dead people care not one whit about their tax rate
5. dead people do not buy gas at any price
6. dead people do not have a standard of living
7. dead people do not care about clean air or water or spotted owls or hug trees
8. dead people do not need handicapped access, wheelchair ramps, or wide doorways
9. dead people do not require healthcare, health insurance, or long term care
10. dead people do not own property, nor invest in 401(k)s

In other words, if you do not stand up first for the right of a person to live, to be born in the first place, none of the other things you stand up for mean a flipping thing for that person.

werd.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336972571' post='2430423']
Since a batch of buttknuckles turned this into a question of which right is the most important....let me state this. Try to argue if you wish...good luck.
[/quote]I think this is part of the answer. Often Catholic Democrats, when they're not entirely against the Church (like Nancy Pelosi is), justify their position on the idea of rights and what is important, but in the process they often overlook what is truly important for some reason or another.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1336940112' post='2430249']
A false comparison since he had no choice in the matter. Every 14 year old HAD to be a member of the Hitler youth. Fact. Further he deserted it like a good Catholic should desert the Democratic party. Further there is a big difference between a 14 year old boy and the courage expected of an adult! Nope I stand by my post.
[/quote]
Funny that you used the word fact, since very little of what you posted was fact.
1. He not only served in the Hitler Youth, but also in the full-fledged Wehrmacht for two years.
2. By this point in the war, he was 16/17.
3. He did not desert until the very end of the war (we're talking, like, last few weeks - late April 1945).

It doesn't really matter how he came to be a part of the party, in any case. Your statement was that every member of a given party, the example you chose to provide being the Nazis, necessarily adheres to every facet of the party. I provided a counter-example to that.

And, in a very real sense, it is compulsory to be a member of a party in many places. For instance, in my state, if one is not registered as a Republican or Democrat, he cannot vote in the primaries, thereby excluding him from a very large part of the electoral process. Both parties support the culture of death. So, then, I fail to see how my counter-example doesn't hold water.

Now that we've cleared that up, here's a question: if it is not permissible to be a Democrat, whitherto do you believe that a "good" Catholic should desert?

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1336974001' post='2430430']
Now that we've cleared that up, here's a question: if it is not permissible to be a Democrat, whitherto do you believe that a "good" Catholic should desert?
[/quote]

Form a third party - Church Militant. :-)

[havok579257]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336992579' post='2430441']
Form a third party - Church Militant. :-)
[/quote]

the problem is to vote for a third party is to throw your vote away. we can all get on here and talk about if enough people joined a third party they maybe they would actually be elected. although we are deluding ourselves. the vast majority of americans will never get behind a third party in a major election. the problem comes from the conservative and liberal media outlets only show republican or democrat canidates for the vast majority of their programming. i would guess most americans are not going to go out on their own to investigate a third party,hence no third party will be elected to a major position of power. in close ellections you have to vote for the least evil candidate otherwise people like Obama get elected.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336943495' post='2430270']
your really comparing catholic democrats on THIS site with Hitler? Czause your talking to people online on Phatmass,not the entire world. Do you think anyone on here will actually listen to your arguements or consider your points on here when you compare them to Hitler? You just trying to start something and obviously have no intention of trying to change minds and hearts here on phatmass.

Oh and now personal attacks on my knowledge of catholic faith. Grow up, seriously. Your acting childish. Don't agree with what I say and you figure best route is personal attacks.
[/quote]

Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless

[thessalonian]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1336943495' post='2430270']
your really comparing catholic democrats on THIS site with Hitler? Czause your talking to people online on Phatmass,not the entire world. Do you think anyone on here will actually listen to your arguements or consider your points on here when you compare them to Hitler? You just trying to start something and obviously have no intention of trying to change minds and hearts here on phatmass.

Oh and now personal attacks on my knowledge of catholic faith. Grow up, seriously. Your acting childish. Don't agree with what I say and you figure best route is personal attacks.
[/quote]

Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336992579' post='2430441']
Form a third party - Church Militant. :-)
[/quote]
Okay. I could get behind that.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337013990' post='2430501']
Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless
[/quote]Your generalities don't bother my conscience, since that is what they are. If I chose to vote independent I would have no influence at all on a primary election, and here in Pa that is what counts. You can't elect a pro-life democrat if you can't vote.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think thes's analogy works. but with that said, why would it be wrong to be a member of the Nazi party, if the real only reason one belonged to it, was because they wanted to influence votes to lessen all evils, lesser of all evils argument etc. ?

[dairygirl4u2c]

it could be argued that voting third party or such things that waste a vote is the greater sin, evil etc. because you are not doing what you can to mitigate evil, and promote good, that is within your *reasonable* power to do so.
for example, i don't think it, but if you thought romney was the lesser evil because of abortion etc, it'd be your moral perogative to vote for him, instead of some better third party candidate who has no chance of winning.
you can't escape making tough decisions and responsiblity so easily.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1337030593' post='2430594']
i think thes's analogy works. but with that said, why would it be wrong to be a member of the Nazi party, if the real only reason one belonged to it, was because they wanted to influence votes to lessen all evils, lesser of all evils argument etc. ?
[/quote]I think as long as you have the possibility to change the stance of a party on a issue you should hang in there doing your best. I think that is a much better option than throwing in the towel and doing nothing. I still don't vote for pro-abortionists.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1336972571' post='2430423']
2. dead people cannot vote, regardless of age
[/quote]

You obviously haven't been to Chicago, have you?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1337041271' post='2430673']


You obviously haven't been to Chicago, have you?
[/quote]LoL! Or Wisconsin.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i think what groo is getting @ is if you vote the democrats, in the general party outline includes what he stated,and even voting for those whom are pro life within the party the old saying comes to mind that "a kingdom divided against itself can never suceed" so if the general party consensus is yada yada than the pro-lifers will have to bow down to the majority or get lost because it's the democratic party,weight of numbers. Also musing through the other postings i think the magesterium has clearly stated that one can not get in the frame of mind of doing evil with the intent of a good outcome,even i assume if the supposed evil has all power to make changes. Like lets say i go on a vigilante mission to murder all the drug dealers,than i would just be one evil replacing the other evil so to speak (extreme example but politics is pretty much life or death too) the outcome can never be good from choosing to do evil. Thats what i rekon anyhow. Keep voting the good even if the good seems to be less powerful in popularity i guarentee you it is more powerful,and besides if you never vote for them they will never have the numbers anyhow, if numbers truely matter which i hear they do in a democratic system of polotics.

Onward christian souls.
Jesus is LORD.
God is good,God is love,God saves.

P.s. and if every party in general becomes evil than i would be copping jail time for not voting, probably have more luck sewing and nurturing seed sin there if that ever happens.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[kujo]

I think the operative difference between Nazis and the Democratic Party is voting. Being a member of the Democratic party as a citizen means you are voting every so often for a candidate for public office who will represent you in that office. As a politician or other elected official, you're placed into your seat to vote for or against certain bills or policies that espouse the beliefs of yourself and your constituency.

On the other hand, being a Nazi in Germany in the 30s and 40s meant one thing--you were male who was conscripted to the army. The ideological preferences you may or may not have held had nothing to do with your membership. It was the law, and unless you were part of the very small minority of dissenters who were able to flee the country, you abided the law at gun point.

Thus, thess's analogy does not hold water.

[kujo]

As to the argument about registering as a Dem--or Republican, for that matter-- for the sake of supporting candidates who might be pro-life, I simply question the utility of the action. In the hyper-moneyed, hyper-partisan, dismally-idiotic political system we currently find ourselves in, these politicians who work against the grain on such divisive issues such as abortion will simply never attain much power or influence, even if they somehow find themselves elected. The committee and/or caucus will not support them. Sure they could get elected, but they will be marginalized and treated like pariahs. It's just a fact of life. There might be exceptions, but they'll be few and far between.

So, in my opinion, there's nothing morally wrong with doing what cmom is doing. It's just not fruitful.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1336739793' post='2429736']
You can "belong" to a party and still not agree with everything they stand for. Catholic Answers and their "Voter's Guide" isn't the Vatican (NOT to say it doesn't have good points, just that it doesn't have the same weight as the Vatican). Faith-based programs AREN'T a [i]replacement [/i]for government programs. Government programs have a broader audience. Every child should have the opportunity for education, and last time I checked Catholic schools were still expensive, generally speaking. Public school doesn't mean it's the [i]only [/i]school.

Republicans would rather give the rich tax cuts and get the money to cover our national debt from everyone else, particular programs that serve the poor and fund education. Most Republicans support the death penalty (which is completely inexcusable for pro-life Americans). I only bring it up because even though it may be another thread for another time, talking about how Catholics supposedly can't be Democrats makes it sound like the only other option is to be a Republican. BOTH parties smell of elderberries.
[/quote]
Sigh . . . Where to even begin?

1) There is absolutely nothing in Catholic Church teaching that requires Catholics to support ever-increasing spending on federal government "social programs" and ever-expanding entitlements as practiced by the Democrat Party. Due to the vast and ever-increasing spending of the government under Obama and the Democrats (and yes, the Republicans under Bush contributed to this disaster, but Obama greatly compounded it), we are 16 trillion dollars in debt and counting. This is an unthinkably huge sum of money, which America will never be able to pay its creditors, and will lead to financial ruin for our country in the long run. Our current levels of spending are simply unsustainable, and a bankrupt nation will simply not be able to help its poor and destitute. Laying a vast debt on our young and future generations which they will never be able to pay back to pay for ever-expanding entitlements is neither charitable nor Christian, but quite the opposite. The poor will be the ones ultimately most hurt by the reckless insanity of our government's out of control spending.

(Not that the "mainstream" GOP leadership is a vast improvement in this regards. As the great Mark Steyn put it, Obama's policies are setting us full-throttle, pedal-to-the-metal over the cliff of financial ruin, while Romney would only slow us down into third gear.)

Those duped by "progressive" "Catholic" propaganda into thinking that being a faithful Catholic somehow demands that we support the ever-expanding all-encompassing welfare state as pushed by the Dems would do well to read the sections of John Paul II's [i]Centesimus Annus[/i] regarding the principle of subsidiarity and the "social assistance state" or "welfare state."

Regarding "tax cuts for the rich," conservatives realize that the wealth of our country comes ultimately from private business and enterprise, rather than out of Obama's backside, to be spread around "fairly" by government bureaucrats, We need much less taxation and spending all around. Increasing taxes on those who create wealth will not solve any of our financial problems, but only lead to increased joblessness and poverty. And don't even get me started on the fiasco caused by the NEA and other public employee unions demanding ever-increasing pay and entitlements at tax-payer expense.

Yes, I realize that there are Catholics who disagree with conservatives on these issues in good faith, though I believe they are dead wrong.
But anyone who claims that support for socialistic welfare state policies in anyway justifies supporting a Party or politicians who are blatantly and explicitly for abortion and other such grave intrinsic evils is either very ignorant or dishonest.

It's horrible economics, and even worse theology.

2) Unlike abortion, which is intrinsically evil and wrong in each and every circumstance, the Catholic Church has always and repeatedly taught that the state has the right to use recourse to the death penalty to protect society from certain violent criminals.

As stated in the Council of Trent:


[quote]
The power of life and death is permitted to certain civil magistrates because theirs is the responsibility under law to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. Far from being guilty of breaking this commandment [Thy shall not kill], such an execution of justice is precisely an act of obedience to it. For the purpose of the law is to protect and foster human life. This purpose is fulfilled when the legitimate authority of the State is exercised by taking the guilty lives of those who have taken innocent lives.

In the Psalms we find a vindication of this right: “Morning by morning I will destroy all the wicked in the land, cutting off all evildoers from the city of the Lord” (Ps. 101:8). [/quote]
While people in good faith can argue whether the death penalty is necessary in today's world, to put the death penalty on the same level as abortion morally is again either ignorant or dishonest. (And besides, what has Obama done to end to the death penalty, anyway?)

While it can be argued that there may be prudential reasons, as CMom pointed out, for membership in the Democratic Party, there is absolutely no reason to justify voting for their leaders at the national level.

Obama and the national Democratic Party's explicit support of abortion on demand, contempt for basic religious freedom displayed by their insistence on the HHS mandate forcing Catholic employers to pay for contraception, and explicit support of "gay marriage" should make their complete incompatibility with Catholic morality and blatant opposition to the Church more than obvious. Anyone who denies this is either lying or willfully blind

The inadequacies and failures of Republicans do nothing to change this fact, nor do they justify supporting what is obviously the Greater Evil. If you truly think the country will be better off if you vote third party or refrain from voting, then do so. (Though I would respectfully disagree in most instances. I think we simply cannot afford another term of Obama, but that's another debate.) However, there is no justification to vote for Obama or his cronies. None. I have yet to see a single argument for voting Democrat on the national level that I can take even halfway seriously. Not one. Those "Catholics" who support Obama and his ilk are either idiots, willfully ignorant, or liars. Sorry if that offends people on here, but that's the simple truth of the matter. God bless.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Socrates

[BG45]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1337041271' post='2430673']
You obviously haven't been to Chicago, have you?
[/quote]
[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1337041459' post='2430675']
LoL! Or Wisconsin.
[/quote]

Or southern WV. A few years ago when I lived in WV still, the local news was reporting what authorities believed to be a case of election fraud. "believed" being the politically correct way to describe the fact that more people voted than were of voting age in a city where it happened.

[havok579257]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1337013990' post='2430501']
Seems like someone has a guilty conscience. 6 million Jews killed. Ask the question - Could one morally belong to the nazi party. 50 million babies killed..... Sorry, having a hard time seeing the difference. I guess you say one could morally belong to the nazi party..... Can't see it myself. At least not once they knew what the Nazi party was. Early on perhaps. We know what the democratic party is. I stand by my comments. We are all acting like frogs in water if we can't see the analogy. ABORTION IS A GRAVE MORAL EVIL. The gravest of our day! The death penalty does not compare to 50 million unborn children and counting. I AM NOT REPUABLICAN BY THE WAY. If you don't like my posts and they bother your conscience don't read them. Others are discussing them so I don't feel it is all for naught.

God bless
[/quote]

I love this. You can get on here an say your not a republican and end of story. I state I am not democrat and do not vote democrat and you still try to put me in your little mold as democrat. Just like your not a republican, I am not a democrat and don't vote democrat. Is it really that hard to understand?

so because the death penalty does not compare to abortions i guess that makes it a good thing. i guys those innocent men and yes there have been innocent men executed, are ok because it doesn't compare and if it doesn't compare its a good thing.

maybe i am wrong here and correct me if i am but the Pope has never come out and said democrats are like nazi's. I prefer his example of dealing with the culture of death as oppossed to yours which has no chance of changing anyones mind because when you compare people to nazi they just shut you off.