Third Order, Stupid Question

[Ice_nine]

What are they exactly? Are all third orders secular orders? OR just some of them have secular branches? I just don't get what distinction begets the "third order."

While you're at it might as well splain first and second orders and how they differ. Does the distinction between sister and nun come into play with this or is that a totally separate issue.

thx

[Luigi]

I''m not sure exactly where the lines are drawn these days, but in the (really) old days....

First order was priests/monks/friars
Second order was cloistered women
Third order was active women

The distinctions are clearly visible only in - I hate to say "fully developed" - what's the right word - "fully extended?" - orders like the Dominicans and Franciscans. (Obviously, Jesuits have neither cloistered women nor active women, and the Visitations have neither priests nor active women).

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1340165545' post='2446599']
What are they exactly? Are all third orders secular orders? OR just some of them have secular branches? I just don't get what distinction begets the "third order."

While you're at it might as well splain first and second orders and how they differ. Does the distinction between sister and nun come into play with this or is that a totally separate issue.

thx
[/quote]

No silly question!

Strictly speaking, a nun is an enclosed contemplative religious. A sister is not enclosed and involved in some active apostolate.

I will have a try in explaining Third Orders, while what Luigi said is correct insofar as I know. Re Third Orders - it can vary but probably most commonly perhaps, a Third Order is for lay persons: men and women. Ordinary laity, men and women, can join a religious order without changing their lay status (sometimes diocesan priests and deacons also belong to a Third Order however). They do not have a formal religious habit per se but retain their secular clothing in the main. They might have something exterior on their secular clothing to indicate they are Third Order members, sometimes only worn at formal occasions and meetings. As far as their lifestyle is concerned, there are statutes attached to Third Orders that is their rule of life and these statutes are based on the particular Rule of Life attached to the particular religious order. Third Order lay people (or diocesan priests and deacons) still belong very much to the particular religious order, while not all have Third Orders. Mind you, this is generally speaking, and there can be variations. The great religious orders such as DominiIcan, Carmelite and Franciscans all have Third Orders for lay people.

I may stand corrected by the better informed! And if you have any questions, do ask away - often through questions asked, others learn and me included.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Gemma]

Luigi and BT are both right. Not trying to blow my own horn, but I have been involved with the establishment and formation of a Lay Dominican group in the past.

The great orders are the ones with "Third Orders" properly speaking. The others have lay associates, and new charisms begin as their own "third orders."

There are distinctions in the Third Orders. I am Third Order Secular, but Sr. X from St. Cecilia in Nashville is Third Order Regular. "Regular" means they follow a rule and make simple vows. Third Order Regular can be cloistered, too.

Nowadays, "third order" is more commonly called lay association. The Priests for Life are a clerical lay association, but depending on the group's statutes, the group can be exclusively for laity, depending on the reason for associating. As previously mentioned, new charisms emerge from their own "third orders".

HTH

Blessings,
Gemma

[mantellata]

The hard part with all of this is that historically, this distinction is a Franciscan thing that then became part of regular "parlance".

St. Francis established the friars..... so they were first
Then St. Clare established her poor ladies..... so they were second
Then you had lay people who wanted to attach themselves to the Franciscan charism... so they were third.

It doesn't really work when you talk about the Dominicans....

The nuns were established first.... and yet they are called the second Order -- juridically speaking however, they are simply [u]part of the order of preachers[/u] not seperate in the way that Franciscans and Poor Clares are.

The Friars were established second through the help of the prayers and sacrifices of the nuns.... and yet they are called the first order.

The active Sisters were established much later and so now are called "third order religious" to distinguish them from the "third order secular" lay people attached to the Dominican Charism. Originally both had different names -- the women at one point were called Mantellatae (think St. Catherine of Siena), those who were groupies of St. Vincent Ferrer were called "penitentiae"


..... Confusing - I know......

[Gemma]

The Augustinians have the three order structure, and they pre-date Benedict.

The Benedictines have oblates.

Dominican Family is a fairly recent term. Canonical designations were different in St Catharine's time. Mayhap SMC can enlighten us.

Blessings,
Gemma

[mantellata]

I'm not talking about the structure... I'm talking about the terms.... which came into use with the Franciscans.

I don't recall having used the word "Dominican Family" Simply - order of preachers. The Friars and the Nuns are part of the Order proper.

I'm sure Sr. Mary Catharine will back me up on this.

[Gemma]

[url="http://www.domcentral.org/oplaity/layhistory.htm"]http://www.domcentral.org/oplaity/layhistory.htm[/url]

This links gives the history of the OP laity.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Sister Rose Therese]

I do have a correction to make on this. Third Order Regular (religious Sisters and Brothers) did not come before Third Order Secular.
Third Order secular was first.

A Third Order, i don't know for sure which was this first, was originally for lay people (secular) living in the world. Later on, groups of these lay people started living together communally and eventually started living a Religious Life following a Religous Rule (regular).

A the time when Third Orders were starting up the church did not allow non-cloistered women religous. If I remember right, originally St. Francis de Sales and St. Jane Frances de Chantal had originally wanted to found an non-cloistered active community for women but were not allowed to do so. St. Vincent de Paul and St. Louise de Marillac got around this restriction when founding the Daughters of Charity by not having them be officially a religious institute. I hope I am getting the terms right. I can't remember what their exact category is. Their Sisters do not profess perpetual vows but instead renew them annually.

I don't know exactly when the Church lifted this restriction but I do know there were a great many Franciscans Third Order Regular Sisters' communities that started in the 1800s.

[andibc]

I'm a third order Carmelite and my dh is a third order Franciscan. Briefly,
-there is a rule developed by the order
-the three evangelical counsels are studied and followed according to one's state in life
-religious and priests sometimes join third orders. Surprising, isn't it. Pope John Paul II was a third order Carmelite
-this is a calling just like the vocation to the first two orders, although many people don't view themselves in discernment they just want to "join up" and only later realize the life isn't for them so they leave.
-it's not a club (see previous point) although many mistakenly believe it to be so
-there are almost always monthly meetings
-studying spiritual works and a related apostolic activity are involved (relates to rule)

Edited June 20, 2012 by andibc

[Ice_nine]

ok thanks for all the info. Even tho it makes my head hurt. So maybe it'll help if I explain sorta why I care. Please bear with me! I really do appreciate the assistance. SO those of you who are able to slog through:

I'm researching into religious communities and whatnot, and I feel like I want to explore the idea of doing missions work (foreign or otherwise, although my sense of adventure would like to throw me halfway across the globe, but I'll go wherever God calls me. Hopefully through people who know better than I but I digress). So I've more or less ruled out for the moment the idea of a cloistered life. While I think that's a beautiful way of living, I don't think it's what I'm called to do.

I do however feel the call to live a contemplative and prayerful life, and I feel as tho a secular institute would not cut the mustard, if I understand correctly, what a secular institute is. Not that such way is inferior, but I'd like not to have as little distraction from secular distractions (for example, owning things. I hope this isn't naivete or laziness on my part, but things like owning houses and cars . . . I just don't care). I kinda feel like I'd have one foot in the world and one foot in the church almost, and I'm the kinda person, for better or worse, who like to fully throw oneself in one direction and commit. Perhaps it's wrong to feel that secular institutes do not entail this type of diving in with both feet commitment, but I initially [i]wanted[/i] (in a brief sort of fleeting way) to be a member of a secular institute. I realized this desire was yes rooted in a regenerated love of God and His Church, but also out of fear that rocking the religious garb and living with a bunch of other sisters (or nuns, heck at the time I didn't know the difference!) was just a wee bit too crazy.

I feel a bit like a foal wobbling around this, so I'm afraid to say what I desire might in some way sound stupid but: basically I'm looking for a place where I can be "hardcore" as the kids say and take perpetual vows. Again perhaps the sense of finality is only semantics, if so plz inform me. I also like the finality and fullness of the word "solemn vows" but afaik those are taken by nuns, and as I said I don't think being a nun is in the cards for me, unless some drastic and obvious thing shifts me in that direction quite soon. I get the temporary vs. pertpetual vows (I think) distinction. What of the difference between solemn and temporary vows? I found a bit about the history (uncloistered women (and brothers/monks??) were not considered "religious" until some 500 years ago, and apparently were only begrudgingly tolerated lolbefore the Vatican accepted them, and these institutions made simple vows) but what about the [i]practical[/i] difference?

Also, I really want to join an institute wear the full garb. Is that shallow? A few years ago I thought that was so outdated and insignificant, but now I just really like the humility, the modesty, the association and such that the garb represents.




[b]TLDR;[/b] so basically as you know there are A LOT of orders out there so in attempt to narrow it down to something that I feel is where God would like me to be, I wanted to know if I could tic off "third orders" as things I'm not (currently at least) insterested in. In addition there are like a bajillion convoluted distinctions as I'm researching, I just need a little clarification and guidance.

I'm not rushing but I'd like to simply visit a few communities, maybe go on a retreat, but there are like 124820141 not so subtle distinctions that are making it a bit arduous to narrow things down.

Muchos Gracias

[Lisa]

Ice, what you're talking about is pretty common when discerning, especially in our internet age. Their is too much information out there, and it easily becomes overwhelming. So you are definitely talking about Third Order Regular/Third Order Religious communities, or "active" sisters. That helps us a lot; some people are looking for information about Secular Orders/Tertiaries/Lay third orders (it's confusing).

Typically third order sisters (actives or active-contemplative) sisters make Perpetual or Final Vows, instead of solemn vows. There are some slight differences, but for a starting discerner, they are more or less analogous.

As for what you asked for, the difference between temporary vows and solemn vows is just that temporary vows are made first, most often for 3 years (though some communities renew them yearly). While you are making the commitment in your heart, it's still not permanent, and you can leave the community without dispensation. Once a Sister makes solemn vows, it would require much more to leave... final/perpetual or solemn vows mean making a "all the days of my life" promise to God.

I would recommend checking out the CMSWR website. There are a lot of orders to look at, but not soooo many. They pretty much all wear distinctive attire, and you can check out the work they do (their apostolate). From there, you can contact communities and see if you could come for a visit. Going on a "date" might help you figure out if this is the life for you!

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1340246864' post='2446950']
[b]TLDR;[/b] so basically as you know there are A LOT of orders out there so in attempt to narrow it down to something that I feel is where God would like me to be, I wanted to know if I could tic off "third orders" as things I'm not (currently at least) insterested in. In addition there are like a bajillion convoluted distinctions as I'm researching, I just need a little clarification and guidance.

I'm not rushing but I'd like to simply visit a few communities, maybe go on a retreat, but there are like 124820141 not so subtle distinctions that are making it a bit arduous to narrow things down.

Muchos Gracias
[/quote]

Have you ever looked at [url="http://www.vocationnetwork.org/match"]Vocation Match[/url]? I have quite a few friends who have used it to help narrow down communities.

[Guest chichi24]

The term 'Third Order' originally referred to the 'third' version of a rule written by a religious founder. Many people associate it with the Franciscans and so in that context, members of what has been called the Franciscan Third Order were those Franciscans who made profession on the 'third' version of St. Francis' rule. The term then got generalized to other orders.

Although Third Orders are especially identified with the Mendicant orders: Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, Servites, etc. the first person to actually write a 'third' rule to my knowledge was St. Norbert of Xanten, founder of the Canons Regular of Prémontré (c.1120). However, the idea of lay people and diocesan clerics following religious rules certainly goes back to at least St. Augustine (c.354 - 430) and St. Benedict (c.480 - 543).

In the early centuries of the Church, people who wanted to follow Christ in a radical sort of way undertook a serious commitment to change and reform their lives. Conversion of Life, or Penitence, was a very strong value system, and it led many people to go off to live ascetic lives in the deserts. Sometimes, a person might have committed some serious offense against the Church community and was assigned by their bishop to perform some public acts of penance for a specified period of time. Such people often undertook lives of radical conversion and poverty and would often wear a simple tunic, leather belt, and sandals as signs of their penitent state. As part of their public penance, they might be asked to go on a pilgrimage, undertake certain works of charity, give alms, fast, pray, beg in the streets, etc. For some of these people, they discovered a vocation in this, and even after their penance had been satisfied and they had been restored to the good graces of the Church, they continued to live this lifestyle. Other people, may have never gotten into trouble with the Church, but were inspired to take up this lifestyle out of devotion and motives of seeking a deeper conversion of their lives to Christ. Many of these penitents would go to the deserts and eventually become hermits. Some stayed in their own homes. Still others began to come together into loose knit communities.

By the time of the high Middle Ages, there were so many penitents that they began to be referred to as the Order of Penance. Most of them were totally orthodox, but some of them, in the absence of competent spiritual direction, fell into heresy. About this time, St. Dominic (1170 - 1221) and St. Francis (c.1181 - 1226) came on the scene. Neither of them started the Order of Penance, but they themselves lived very penitential lives and became closely allied and identified with the penitent groups. The charisma of Francis of Assisi was such that huge numbers of people wanted to follow him in the penitential life. He did not want people to neglect their real world responsibilities, so he wrote a version of his rule especially for them. This was his 'third' rule, and the foundation of what we now know as the Secular Franciscan Order. And his rule is really a literary and spiritual masterpiece. At the beginning of it, St. Francis basically identifies the human race as being made up of two kinds of people: those who do Penance and those who do not. It is thus implied that we all have a choice to make about how we intend to live our lives. St. Francis does not mince words about the nature of the choices we face nor their potential consequences.

St. Dominic was originally a priest, a canon regular, who was already bound to live by the Rule of St. Augustine, and the statutes of St. Norbert. The Canonical Order is considered to have been founded by Our Lord, the Apostles, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the first women to follow the Lord. They were the first canons and canonesses. The customs of the canons were written down by St. Augustine, and then reformed by St. Norbert, and then further reformed by St. Dominic. St. Augustine began his monastic life as a layman. Then he was ordained a priest, and finally a bishop. So he always worked very closely with the laity and diocesan clergy, and holiness for those called to live in a secular lifestyle (to be carefully distinguished from the laissez faire lives of those following the secularist philosophy of recent times) was always a major concern to him. So this was the spiritual environment that St. Dominic came from. He was galvanized by his contacts with the Albigensian heretics during his voyages in the South of France, and he realized that there needed to be a still more radical reform of the canonical life.

St. Dominic was also by birth a Castilian from the knightly warrior class. He understood totally the social barriers between the common ordinary people and the nobility, and he understood how intimidating an armed, mounted warrior could be to the ordinary man and woman. He also understood the need for intellectual development, the importance of the emerging universities, and saw very early that academic achievement unsupported by a life of prayer could get people into a whole lot of trouble. In his work with women who were trying to get free from the Albigensians and live truly converted monastic lives, he came to understand how important women were to the apostolic ministry of the Church. So his first actual act as a founder was to found a contemplative, monastic order of women. St. Dominic renounced to all of the worldly power that he had been born to and that he could even have laid claim to as a member of the clergy, and went around on foot like the ordinary people, living a poor and penitential life. He made his first foundation of nuns in a run-down little church, located in an obscure Provencal village. It was called Prouilhe. So this was the birth of the Dominicans: St. Dominic and a group of women converted from a dangerous heresy, and a monastery located in a run-down building. This was in 1206 -1207. Soon after, lay people started coming to him to join in his work and he received their professions of the penitent life. This was the beginning of what came to be known after his death as the Brothers and Sisters of Penance of St. Dominic, and later as the Third Order of St. Dominic, and today as the Lay Fraternities of St. Dominic. So these first professions of lay people into the hands of St. Dominic were taking place as early as 1207. But St. Dominic did not write down a special rule for them. They simply lived the same life as he and the nuns, but remained in their own homes and context.

But this partnership that developed between St. Francis and St. Dominic and the Penitents was evidently a marriage made in Heaven, because they complemented each other so well, and it just took off. The Penitents kept Dominic and Francis grounded in the realities of the grass-roots Catholic, and they gave the Penitents the organization and competent spiritual direction that they had often lacked before.

So I would tend to say that in discerning whether or not a Third Order vocation is for you, a good place to start might be in considering the question of whether you identify with the Penitent way of life. Do you feel that the story of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance is somehow your story? Is this a path you feel God might be calling you to walk?

Then it might be a good idea to look at the spirituality of each order that interests you. All of the Mendicant orders have Penitent branches, but the history and charism of each particular one is distinct. They are not interchangeable. Also, it might be helpful to look at the Norbertine (Premonstratensian) Order founded by St. Norbert, because that might also be a possible path. Then there is the question of Oblation, which is more characteristic of the purely monastic orders, such as Benedictines, Cistercians, Camaldolese. Some branches of Augustinians and the other Mendicant orders also have Oblates but they usually call them Associates or Affiliates. The main difference between being an Oblate and being a member of a Third Order is that oblation is made to a specific local monastery or abbey community (or sometimes a monastic congregation). Oblates/Associates are not generally organized into an order with its own governing structure and elected superiors., although some members of the monastic community generally work closely with their monastery's Oblates.

The Church approves the rules and statutes of all of these communities. They are regulated by the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. Some Third Order communities have evolved into religious or secular institutes or societies of apostolic life in their own right. This is the case with many communities of apostolic Dominican, Franciscan, etc. sisters. Their roots are in the Order of Penance, but they have developed into autonomous institutes. They remain aggregated to their parent order and continue to live its charism, follow its liturgical and spiritual practices, but have their own specialized ministries.

Habits? Every spiritual tradition has its own approach to the habit. However, if the community's legislation has been approved by the Church, then its regulations about habit, garb, uniform, or ID are also approved. It really depends on the particular charism. A religious habit is not a fashion statement.
Most secular institutes do not wear any distinguishing uniform or sign in public, and this is proper to them because their charism is precisely to be totally hidden in Christ and in the midst of His people. Most Third Order members do not wear the habit of their order publicly, although Secular Franciscans do so more frequently. Most of Third Order members, to my knowledge, wear either/and/or a small scapular under their regular clothes, dress in the colors of their order, or wear some external symbol such as a cross, coat of arms, etc. However, those who actually live in community or who live in community on a long-term basis with religious of their order do sometimes wear a habit as such. A lot depends on the specific ministry and apostolate that people are involved in, the policies of their community, and what is authorized or not by their bishops. Wearing a religious habit publicly requires both the permission of one's local bishop and the permission of the superiors of the community whose habit it is. The Church and the various orders, congregations, institutes and societies have proprietary rights to their dress and insignia in the same way that law enforcement agencies, the military, academia, health care communities, and many tribal nations and ethnic groups have rights to their distinctive regalia.

I really appreciated your post and questions, and I hope these comments may be of some help to you in your search for the Lord's will in your life. I am keeping you in my prayers.

I am, by the way, a member of the Lay Fraternities of St. Dominic.

Peace and best wishes.

[andibc]

It sounds like you are looking for something other than a third order, but do not mistakenly believe that belonging to a third order is easier. I believe in many ways it is a more challenging life because you are the one who constantly must decide to do everything for the glory of God and you normally do it completely by yourself. It's not as though we have the pleasures of God and the pleasures of the world at the same time. We work to please God and deny ourselves the things of the world that are always within our grasp.

Many in third orders (I would say more than 50%) longed for a religious vocation when they were younger and either didn't have one or they were unable to follow it for whatever reason. If you find yourself in that position some day, and some of you will, don't think of being in a third order as second rate. It's not. It's a true vocation, extremely challenging to live but beautiful all the same.