Third Order, Stupid Question

[emmaberry]

andibc-I agree that 3rd orders are a true vocation, but to say that it is more difficult than religious life? That you don't have the pleasures of the world (marriage/family) and of God (the order) at the same time? That's just not true. If religious life and third orders are the same, then heck..I think I want a marriage and family AND the religious life stuff! I am not discounting third orders, but it is not the same as religious life on numerous levels.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='chichi24' timestamp='1340303691' post='2447138']
Peace and best wishes.
[/quote]

Thanks! I really appreciated all that info. I've done some googling and poking around but there is sooo much it helps to have that explained in one place. I'm curious tho, as a lay member, how does that work? Do you take vows at all? You live alone? With a community? You afford your own living expenses?

I do have another question though. From what I was getting at it seems third orders can have lay members and/or religious members. But the posts below yours confuse me more on this front. So, the term Third Order, doesn't [i]necessarily[/i] distinguish between a religious or secular institute, but depends on additional criteria?

Thanks for your prayers. I need em
[quote name='andibc' timestamp='1340317960' post='2447222']
It sounds like you are looking for something other than a third order, but do not mistakenly believe that belonging to a third order is easier. I believe in many ways it is a more challenging life because you are the one who constantly must decide to do everything for the glory of God and you normally do it completely by yourself. It's not as though we have the pleasures of God and the pleasures of the world at the same time. We work to please God and deny ourselves the things of the world that are always within our grasp.

Many in third orders (I would say more than 50%) longed for a religious vocation when they were younger and either didn't have one or they were unable to follow it for whatever reason. If you find yourself in that position some day, and some of you will, don't think of being in a third order as second rate. It's not. It's a true vocation, extremely challenging to live but beautiful all the same.
[/quote]

I didn't mean to imply that it was in any way inferior. All I meant to say is that I think my previous motivations for wanting to be a secular member were not right. And "easiness" of that calling aside, it just doesn't sound like something I was made for. I consider myself an independent person who very much enjoys a good chunk of solitude, but the "doing it mostly on my own" part stresses me out. I think it might be too easy for someone like me to take more liberties with that you know? I think it's healthy for me to sacrifice as much of my autonomy as possible and I think that either consecrated life or marriage would be better apt for me to do such a thing.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='andibc' timestamp='1340317960' post='2447222']
It sounds like you are looking for something other than a third order, but do not mistakenly believe that belonging to a third order is easier. I believe in many ways it is a more challenging life because you are the one who constantly must decide to do everything for the glory of God and you normally do it completely by yourself. It's not as though we have the pleasures of God and the pleasures of the world at the same time. We work to please God and deny ourselves the things of the world that are always within our grasp.

Many in third orders (I would say more than 50%) longed for a religious vocation when they were younger and either didn't have one or they were unable to follow it for whatever reason. If you find yourself in that position some day, and some of you will, don't think of being in a third order as second rate. It's not. It's a true vocation, extremely challenging to live but beautiful all the same.
[/quote]

Spot on that " It's a [u][b]true vocation[/b][/u], [u][i][b]extremely challenging[/b][/i][/u] to live but beautiful all the same. ". It is a very personal call and vocation to a Third Order. Definately not a case of choosing marriage and a family and then tack on the religious life type of things, although I can see the attraction .


Third Orders do not have the same "under the one roof" type of community, though they do have a form of community life usually through regular meetings. Secular dress is maintained and the Rule of Life is usually their own unique Third Order statues based on the Rule of Life of the First and Second Orders (priests, brothers and nuns or sisters of their Order).

If one desires marriage or even the single celibate chaste lay state and a committed spiritual life type of thing one can (and should ideally) do this without necessarily a vocation and call to a Third Order. Those who feel a call to the single celibate chaste lay state ideally do so under spiritual direction and something of a plan of life would be agreed upon most often as the commitment to the vocation is for the "sake of The Kingdom".

Edited June 22, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[andibc]

[quote].I think I want a marriage and family AND the religious life stuff![/quote]
When I said "pleasures of the world" I was not speaking of marriage and family life. Don't be so quick to think that marriage and having a family is easier or more pleasurable than religious life.

[Chapel Rat]

Let us not forget St. Rosa of Lima, who stopped to pray in the chapel before entering the convent without her parents' knowledge and permission. It was there that she realized that God didn't want her to become and nun and she became a lay Dominican and lived with her family. She didn't have it easy living at home with a family and friends that didn't understand her vocation.

Now she's the patroness of the Americas, so it goes to show us that whatever path God asks us to walk, we can be certain that it will the best for the Church, especially during these difficult time for the Church.

My brother discerned the priesthood and what upset when God slammed that door shut for him. 6 years later, he's married with a little baby boy. His wife jokes with him saying that "God didn't want you consecrating hosts, but rather changing diapers!"

May we all pray for each other to follow God's will, even if it's not something we don't it to be.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='andibc' timestamp='1340382736' post='2447466']
When I said "pleasures of the world" I was not speaking of marriage and family life. Don't be so quick to think that marriage and having a family is easier or more pleasurable than religious life.
[/quote]

Oh-I don't! I see my parents and how difficult it is to keep their marriage alive and strong. I see how busy my mom is, and how she can't pray as much as she wants because of her duties to her family. It is not easier, but you cannot deny that religious have to give up sex and seeing themselves in kids-the pleasures of the flesh are there, whereas religious give up the pleasures of the flesh in their vows. So, of course it is not easier--in fact, I think convent life will be, by far, the easiest life for me, but that's because it is what I was created for. Someone who's supposed to be married would find religious life to be a difficult trial, because its not their vocation.


I would throw your statement back to you and say don't be too quick to put religious life and marriage on the same level. Jesus and Paul said they weren't! Both are beautiful, but not on equal planes, at least not according to the Church.

[Guest chichi24]

[b]I'm curious tho, as a lay member, how does that work? Do you take vows at all? You live alone? With a community? You afford your own living expenses?

I do have another question though. From what I was getting at it seems third orders can have lay members and/or religious members. But the posts below yours confuse me more on this front. So, the term Third Order, doesn't [i]necessarily[/i] distinguish between a religious or secular institute, but depends on additional criteria?[/b]

I'm happy if any of that post was helpful to you, Ice. To try and respond:

I belong to a community with other Lay Dominicans. We have regular meetings and activities and keep in touch by all of the usual means, including social media. I live quite some distance from the other people in that community, so I'm not often able to go physically to meetings, but the other members all live closer together. Actually, I'm hoping to see a Lay Dominican community develop in the immediate vicinity where I live, so that dynamic will probably change over the next couple of years.

We go through a formation process that lasts for at least 4 years and can last for up to 7 or 8 years. Additionally, members take whatever professional formation is needed for their work, and any specialized theological formation needed for Lay Ecclesial Ministry or for particular responsibilities they might undertake for the Order. We have an Inquiry period that lasts a year, a Candidacy that lasts a year and that can be extended for an additional year, and Temporary Profession that lasts for 3 years and can be extended for an additional 3 years. At the end of the Temporary Profession period, we make the promise of Obedience for life. Our basic form of commitment is the promise of Obedience. Some members make vows, if they are called to that. As with any form of radical Christian life, the discernment process is a shared process between the individual, the Order and the Church.

I happen to live alone, but that's not a rule one way or the other. Some of our members are married, some are apostolic celibates, some live with their families or with friends, some live alone, some live together in community. We manage our own expenses. Each member develops his/her ministry according to possibilities, talents, and qualifications. Each order is different and has its own form of commitment. Dominicans make an explicit vow or promise of obedience, which includes everything else. Third Order rules were desgined to be liveable by people in any state of life, so generally, there will be both clerical and lay members, as well as communities of religious. There will be both married members and apostolic celibates (i.e. those who are vowed or promised to a life of celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of God).

A canonically erected Fraternity of St. Dominic in the English-speaking world is referred to as a Chapter. A Chapter can only be erected with the permission of the local bishop. But once canonically erected, it's a full service autonomous Dominican community on the same par as a priory of friars, a monastery of nuns, a congregation of sisters, or of one of our secular institutes. That means, that a canonically erected Chapter reports directly to its bishop and the major superiors of the Order, carries on the prayer of the Church according to the Dominican Proper (the successor to the Dominican Rite Office approved by the Order and the Church),has its own council, its own chaplain, officers, formation directors, its own formation program, its own study program, apostolates, governing board, etc. In other words, a Lay Dominican community is not a subsidiary of a community of Dominican Religious.

Now a Third Order is different from a Secular Institute. Secular Institutes have members who are all the same gender and the members all make profession of the Counsels of Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience. Secular Institutes are a much more recent phenomenon in the Church. The oldest one that I'm familiar with is called the Company of St. Ursula, founded by St. Angela Merici. They are, to my knowledge, the original community founded by St. Angela, hence the original Ursulines. Some of the early groups of Ursulines took up a monastic life style and became the Ursuline Nuns. Still others became apostolic religious sisters. So, there are actually several different branches of the Ursulines, but they all live the charism of St. Angela Merici. Most secular institute members do not reveal their membership publicly. Their consecration is properly a very hidden one. Third Order members do make a public commitment, but they don't necessarily enter the consecrated life. So in a Third Order community, members who are married are on the same par with members who are celibate, unless they are called to live together in community and all take the religious vows.

I realize it can seem confusing, just remember there are many gifts, but the same Spirit of Love who bestows all charisms and vocations. The Holy Spirit is truly wonderful and we can never exhaust all His blessings. But it can be confusing when trying to weave one's way through it all.

Maybe these few points in summary can help:

1) Most of the time when we start discerning about our vocation, most people will begin with looking at their basic state of life calling. Am I called to marriage? (For men) Am I called to the priesthood or permanent diaconate? Am I called to a form of consecrated life?

2) Then another good question at this stage might be: Am I called to an Ecclesial Ministry or to an individual apostolate?

3) How can I best put into practice my ideals of a committed Christian life? I.e. Is there a particular Rule of Life that I can adopt (many spiritual books give good basic ideas on this, as will a good spiritual director)? Are there particular schools of spirituality that I feel drawn to (It can be good to narrow this gradually down to about three)?

4) Depending on where I feel called to in terms of a basic state of life, what ways would be open to me to express these spiritualities? For example, let's say I'm a man who's discerned a strong attraction to the diocesan priesthood, but I also have a strong attraction to Carmelite spirituality, would I do better becoming a Carmelite Religious priest (there goes the diocesan vocation) or a Secular Carmelite? What's the primary calling for me? etc. Or maybe I'm a woman with a strong attraction to a ministry at the local diocesan level. What options are there? Would Lay Ecclesial Ministry at the parish level, Consecrated Virginity, or a Religious Institute of Diocesan Right work best for me?

I think by maybe looking at things this way and beginning to ask yourself questions about where your strong attractions lie, what available options exist for carrying out those attractions, what particular spiritualites speak to you, what ministries and apostolates you feel most attracted to, etc. you can narrow the almost infinite range of possibilities down to a manageable set of things that could be realistic vocational choices for you and that could best reflect God's will for your life.

Warmest regards,

Chichi

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='andibc' timestamp='1340382736' post='2447466']
When I said "pleasures of the world" I was not speaking of marriage and family life. Don't be so quick to think that marriage and having a family is easier or more pleasurable than religious life.
[/quote]

Thank you for the response - I have experienced both and have two adult sons (still single), both well adjusted and with careers - and now I am in the single chaste celibate lay state (under spiritual direction, ongoing) and have been for many years. My marriage annuled around 25 years ago. I entered monastic life in my teens and then again in my forties...............I don't hide these facts but am well aware not all members have read those posts where I have menionted them.

Edited June 29, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

My sincere apologies, andibc. Just as well I returned to my original post and noticed that your reply was not addressed to me at all. Please ignore my previous post immediately prior to this.

Edited June 29, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1340329876' post='2447292']
andibc-I agree that 3rd orders are a true vocation, but to say that it is more difficult than religious life? That you don't have the pleasures of the world (marriage/family) and of God (the order) at the same time? That's just not true. If religious life and third orders are the same, then heck..I think I want a marriage and family AND the religious life stuff! I am not discounting third orders, but it is not the same as religious life on numerous levels.
[/quote]
Wow. Emmaberry I disagree, especially with the way you say it.

Andibc said "don't think that a third order is easier." He's right. It is a different challenge than religious life.

In a way it IS harder. Why? Because you are more "on your own" and you need to work on the right balance between responsibilities as a lay person, as a worker, as a parishioner, as possibly a spouse and parent. Thrn add the responsibilities of a 3rd order.

In religious life everything is very defined by the rules and customs. You choose to follow and obey in freedom.

As a third order member you have the rule for the order that is not as strictly defined. You have to in a way be even more disciplined.

I have a doc in spanish that talks about lay paths to perfection and it lays out the challenges quite well.

Each vocation has its pros and cons, challenges and rewards. The key is to choose what will lead to sancification of your soul, and to choose that which will give you joy.

[emmaberry]

cmariadiz: I never said a third order was easier in my reply-just that I would prefer to have a husband and kids and be a lay franciscan if I had the choice. Again, it is a true vocation, and it definitely seems harder to me because it is not my vocation.

Third order members seem to be defensive because I point out that they get to have the family and the beauty of the religious order. I did not mean that it was easier, just that I would prefer that life. But I shouldn't judge other's people's enjoyment and pleasure of their own vocation based on what I would find to be 'best.' . Again, there are many third order saints!

I agree that a vocation will sanctify your soul most completely, but I don't agree that we choose our vocation. I would not have chosen mine, and originally the thought gave me very little joy! Although I suppose we always have the freedom to say no.

Just a technicality, but you end up agreeing with my point, which is that religious life and third orders have some differences.

Edited June 30, 2012 by emmaberry

[Ice_nine]

no fighting in my thread!

[emmaberry]

sorry Ice_nine! If it's any consolation, I didn't think we were fighting. Then again, I did want to be a lawyer growing up...


Edit: Just found out that Mother Lillie, foundress of the Trinitarians of Mary, was a third order Carmie before she founded the community. Again, the Church has so many holy third order men and women! Edited June 30, 2012 by emmaberry

[AnneLine]

[i]Sorry I haven't been able to be involved in this thread before -- as some of you know, my Mother in Law is sick, and I'm having to spend a lot of my time away from the house... and my desktop computer. She does't have computer nor internet... at least not yet..... And I'm having to do all the rest of my stuff in less time... so less PhatMa,ss time for AnneLine. Sigh! Please pray for me....[/i]


A few thoughts that might add to this discussion.

I'm a one of the formation directors (like a combo vocation director and novice mistress) for a secular order group that is affiliated with one of the mendicant orders (I've chosen not to put which one on line, but might share it with someone for a good reason... I don't have anything to be nervous about, but don't want people to presume that I speak for my Order. I also am a member of a parish that is run by a different mendicant order. And have lots of friends in many different ones. So..... if anyone has questions I can help with, don't hesitate to PM me. I may be able to help you narrow down which group / spirituality would be a good fit and/or help you find the right community to explore....

As has been noted before.... by definition, third or secular or lay order members and oblates live out the spirituality and charism of an order 'in the world' as opposed to being a 'first order' friar or a 'second order' cloistered nun. Third order groups break into two streams, those who live in community and have a 'regular' (i.e., consistent, organized) lifestyle of communal prayer, apostolate, etc. and those who live in the 'secular' world as lay persons and in some cases, non-order priests and deacons can also fit into this category. The 'regular' group is on a continuum -- some of them are very traditional (almost like life in the second order); others are somewhat more middle-of-the road, wearing habits and engaged in very active ministries (almost like the 'societies of apostolic life'), and some are almost indistinguishable from those who live as 'secular' or 'lay' or 'Third Order' members who live as lay people, but they have more formal 'community' stuff and take the three religious vows of poverty, chastity & obedience. In the same way, some 'lay' people live almost like religious sisters or brothers (and might take private vows)... and others are much more like lay people who simplly incorporate the parent Order's spirituality into their everyday lives. Most lay people who are called to this vocation live more like that. But all of this is the beauty of Francis' concept of a 'third way' of being Franciscan.... it is deliberately vague becaues it gives MUCH flexibility for each person to discern which religious family's charism pulls on their heart strings.... and a lot of flexibility to make it their own and to incorporate it into the situation in which God has them living!

Discerning a vocation to a secular order is exactly the same as discerning whether God is calling you to enter religious life..... do you have the attraction? the spiritual, mental, physical and emotional health needed to do formation and to live out the rule/constitutions/whatever your group calls it.... and does the community believe you have a call to their community? And then people try the life.... and some find they don't have the vocation, and that is fine, but many find they do. And God is blessed -- and blesses -- those who try their vocations.

Edited June 30, 2012 by AnneLine

[AnneLine]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1341028690' post='2450684']
no fighting in my thread!
[/quote]

Funny story that is perfectly connected with the 'non-fight' -- A few years ago, my secular order community went on our weekend retreat at the house of prayer that is run by the first order Friars of our parent Order. It had been a rough year for the friars.... of a small community of 6 men, two of them had been hospitalized in different cities about 20 miles from the House of Prayer... but in the opposite directions! The poor priest who was running our retreat had been trying to run the retreats (missing two major presenters!), coordinate the management of the guesthouse aspect of the house of prayer (his usual job), get to the hospital to visit the two priests (and bring them Our Lord!), and help his remaining brother priests to take on the parish duties (weekend fill-in priests) that the two sick priests would have normally done. Big job... and he looked.... tired.

I don't think he realized he was doing it, but "Fr. Joe" tried to get a bit of sympathy out of the secular order members, by telling us what a VERY hard time he was having, how he was trying to figure out how to get his prayer time in while running the retreat house, racing up and down the highway, and feeling totally, physically exhausted! We were empathetic... but probably not as much as he had hoped. And he was obviously... baffled... as to why we weren't as 'poor Fr. Joe' as he had expected. About an hour later, I found him setting the table for the next meal, and gave him a hand... and while I did it, I said, 'you know, Father.... what you said about how you are having trouble balancing everything... welll... welcome to the world of the secular order members.' And I just looked at him with great love and compas - sion. And he looked back... and his eyes got big.... and he said, "AnneLine, I never realized... I never thought about.... how do you guys do this? This IS what it would be like to be a secular order member!!! I can't imagine doing this all the time. It is exhausting!" and I said, "Father, it's a vocation. You will be given the graces to do it if God wants you to do it.... for a few weeks or a few decades. We'll be praying for you... you pray for us, too!".

I think we both went away very much more aware of how we SHARE the spirituality of our order and yet live it out in a VERY different arena. We have much in common... but we are given different graces because God wants us to live the charism of the order in a different setting. And I LOVE being a secular.... even though there are days I would love to have been given the vocation of a Regular third order member or a cloistered Nun... but God knows best (and I think my husband is glad it worked out this way, too!)

Praying for all of you!

Edited June 30, 2012 by AnneLine