Papist Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340938131' post='2450250'] 1942. Wickard vs. Filburn. Ship has sailed. [/quote] Nein. I am talking about the consumer be required to buy.
Annie12 Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 The bottom line is that the US has drifted toward socialized health care.
Ice_nine Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I know mostly everyone here is against socialized medicine but why? Does it work in some European countries? I'm genuinely asking because I'm interested in the facts and legitimate criticism of said system. I'm pretty much against socialized medicine for philosophical, common sense reasons, but economically and such I've no idea why it's so "bad."
Basilisa Marie Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1340999741' post='2450473'] I know mostly everyone here is against socialized medicine but why? Does it work in some European countries? I'm genuinely asking because I'm interested in the facts and legitimate criticism of said system. I'm pretty much against socialized medicine for philosophical, common sense reasons, but economically and such I've no idea why it's so "bad." [/quote] Well, it does cost a lot of money, and I'm not sure our country is ready to handle that. Europeans pay a LOT of taxes. Plus, it's not like you can go to whatever doctor you want. Taxes might cover it, but the quality goes way down when you have to wait months to see a specialist. Our health care might be cost-restrictive for lots of people, but if you can pay for it, you can get a very high quality of care, very quickly. If all of us are dishing out a lot of tax money to pay for health care, we don't want to sacrifice our standard of quality.
Winchester Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1340906092' post='2450020'] Bush didn't fail you. This is one of the most conservative courts in decades. Maybe not every law that you dislike is unconstitutional. [/quote] "Conservatives" like unlimited government, too. The Constitution created a federal government of limited powers. This is not limited power. floopy Kennedy. [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340969163' post='2450334'] Nein. I am talking about the consumer be required to buy. [/quote] The idea behind prohibiting you growing your own food was to compel you to buy. Edited June 29, 2012 by Lil Red
Papist Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1341005529' post='2450545'] The idea behind prohibiting you growing your own food was to compel you to buy. [/quote] Perhaps, but is that the case in the case you stated?
Adrestia Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340968932' post='2450332'] [left]According to the Doctors Company survey, 60% of them believe that Obamacare will have a negative impact on overall patient care, [url="http://www.thedoctors.com/ecm/groups/public/@tdc/@web/documents/web_content/con_id_004676.pdf"]http://www.thedoctor...n_id_004676.pdf[/url][/left] [/quote] The Doctors Company is a medical malpractice insurance company. According to that survey, more doctors are more concerned about Obamacare's effect on their earnings than it's effect on patient care.
kujo Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1341010858' post='2450591'] The Doctors Company is a medical malpractice insurance company. According to that survey, more doctors are more concerned about Obamacare's effect on their earnings than it's effect on patient care. [/quote] Surely you aren't suggesting the existence of some sort of correlation between their opinion of the policy and its relationship to their wallets
kujo Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I love when people speak in absolutes. "It doesn't work," "it causes quality of care to decrease," etc. As if there's some sort of determinism at play here. Could it be that we might be able to create a system whereby everyone--and I do mean [b]everyone[/b]--is able to possess a sort of mutually agreed upon set of coverage without bankrupting our entire medical system? Is it possible that the same country that conservatives and patriotic-types heap such lofty adjectives upon--"beacon of light," "city on a hill," "greatest country ever"-- might be able to learn from the mistakes and failures of other civilized nations who provide some sort of universal coverage to its citizens, and create a system that is both cost-effective for the taxpayer, efficient for the patient and reasonably profitable for the medical-industrial complex? It's not algebra, folks. There's no predetermined failure on the horizon. We can do this if we choose to. The current system is all sorts of f'd up. The Affordable Care Act, regardless of your opinion of its constitutionality or efficacy, does fix some of the truly broken and immoral parts of it. Instead of investing all this time and energy on hating Obama, perhaps we would be better served trying build on the flawed first step he and his party gave us.
Anomaly Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Kujo, it's a matter of fundamental difference if opinion. Some, like myself, do not think the Government should have that much power and responsibility and control. I also base my dislike of socialized medicine comparing what my wife's family in England get compared to the US. I have to admit they like it generally, but it doesn't compare to what we have here. US expectations far exceed our ability to pay for it fir everyone. Our medical capabilities far exceed what we can economically can provide to everyone and will have to be limited by Government policy. The populace cannot decide how much medical care is basic and when it becomes a luxury. Even our poorest have much greater free health care than third world countries. We see Europe having serious economic issues because people expect the government to provide more than their economies can pay for.
Papist Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1341010858' post='2450591'] The Doctors Company is a medical malpractice insurance company. According to that survey, more doctors are more concerned about Obamacare's effect on their earnings than it's effect on patient care. [/quote] So you are saying the survey has no merit b/c of such?
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341020558' post='2450650'] So you are saying the survey has no merit b/c of such? [/quote] Do not put words in my mouth.
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341015562' post='2450632'] Kujo, it's a matter of fundamental difference if opinion. Some, like myself, do not think the Government should have that much power and responsibility and control. I also base my dislike of socialized medicine comparing what my wife's family in England get compared to the US. I have to admit they like it generally, but it doesn't compare to what we have here. US expectations far exceed our ability to pay for it fir everyone. Our medical capabilities far exceed what we can economically can provide to everyone and will have to be limited by Government policy. The populace cannot decide how much medical care is basic and when it becomes a luxury. Even our poorest have much greater free health care than third world countries. We see Europe having serious economic issues because people expect the government to provide more than their economies can pay for. [/quote] Obamacare is not socialized medicine. It is a requirement that people buy private health insurance or pay a penalty (tax, according to Roberts). Health care costs in the US are crazy high, but health care outcomes are not any better (http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php). Obamacare certainly has a lot of faults, but I doubt that the quality of care will suffer because more people are required to buy health insurance.
Papist Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1341029307' post='2450689'] Do not put words in my mouth. [/quote] I'm not. That's why I am asking?
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341030118' post='2450715'] I'm not. That's why I am asking? [/quote] by that logic, do you still go for joy rides on tractors?
Papist Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1341064842' post='2450822'] by that logic, do you still go for joy rides on tractors? [/quote] Oh. I understand your point now. That survey is bogus. Silly me
Norseman82 Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1341005529' post='2450545'] The idea behind prohibiting you growing your own food was to compel you to buy. [/quote] Or as they would say in my neighborhood, "You need a jukebox".
Jesus_lol Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340968932' post='2450332'] [left][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][color=#333333]Whenever systems are being controlled by the government's than money and politics, issues will soon come up in universal health care. Rules will be placed on the doctors whether or not if they are able to perform expensive procedures/treatments on patients because of our debt issue. If doctors are limited to performing expensive [/color][/font][/left] [left][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]procedures/treatments [/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]then patients will not be getting the best care as they can receive. I believe this would also have a very bad impact on the patient-doctor relationship. Also, this lack of freedom would deter many good men and women from becoming doctors, nurses, etc. [/font][/color]According to the Doctors Company survey, 60% of them believe that Obamacare will have a negative impact on overall patient care, [url="http://www.thedoctors.com/ecm/groups/public/@tdc/@web/documents/web_content/con_id_004676.pdf"]http://www.thedoctor...n_id_004676.pdf[/url][/left] [/quote] Can you list examples of doctors being forced not to provide care from canada, UK , france, etc? because i can think of thousands of cases like that yearly in the states when people did not have insurance, or their insurance company drops them the day they actually need care. [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1340999741' post='2450473'] I know mostly everyone here is against socialized medicine but why? Does it work in some European countries? I'm genuinely asking because I'm interested in the facts and legitimate criticism of said system. I'm pretty much against socialized medicine for philosophical, common sense reasons, but economically and such I've no idea why it's so "bad." [/quote] Considering the USA is basically the only developed country without some sort of socialized medicare, i would say that yes it works. a big part of the resistance to a proper working system like canada's is "but with all these poor people actually being able to receive medical care, that makes the lines a bit longer for me!"
Lil Red Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 how accurate is that wait graph that's been making the rounds on facebook? (I'm trying to find it right now)
Lil Red Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 aha, found it: [img]https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599297_414760778565239_1260854771_n.jpg[/img]
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