Opinions/help For A Family Situation

[Cherie]

God bless your hearts for reading this; I'm afraid it's a teeny bit complicated.

I [i]would[/i] say it's a "hypothetical situation", but alas, it is a real family situation for which I need your help and opinions.

Let me start by saying my mother grew up Catholic, but not really knowing much about the Faith. She and my father divorced when I was in second grade; the marriage was annulled. As a result of people's attitude toward her in our church community (basically all her church friends ended their friendship with her) she left the Faith for quite a number of years. Met a man, married him outside the Church, divorced. That marriage was also annulled. She later had a conversion as I prepared to enter the convent, and married a Catholic man who was from our parish. Her conversion was mostly as a way to feel close to me since the convent was 13 hours away (we were very close, especially during a lot of hardships we went through as a family).

Fast forward to today. I had left the convent and married. My mom's marriage to the Catholic man ended and is going through the annulment process. (Before anyone goes on about the annulments, please assume they are all actually invalid marriages based on canon law. Because three annulments sounds like a ridiculous amount...but it's not all on my mother's part. She has a habit of picking marshmallow fluffs, and a lot of the invalidity of the marriages comes from THEIR part. If you know anything about psychology you'll know that people have a tendency to keep picking "bad" people. "Pathology seeks pathology." I'm not defending her bad decisions, I just would like y'all to give the benefit of the doubt and let's assume these annulments are based on an actual canonical basis...because my problem/question isn't about whether or not these annulments should have happened.)

My mother made some bad decisions and made another one. Before the last divorce was even FINAL, she started living with a man she knew growing up. My husband and I have told her we do NOT agree with what she's doing and believe it is immoral. We have told them we can't stay overnight at their house with this situation going on (that's a boundary we have chosen to make) and have pleaded with them to please do things the [i]right way.[/i] If she wants to get together with this man ... live as friends right now, in separate houses. The annulment process is going through and after it's complete, then she would be free to start a relationship with this man, and then once they get MARRIED--in the Church--that's when they can live together. NOT like this. So they're clear on how we feel about it and have chosen to keep things the way they are.

Well, my in-laws have meddled in this situation. My father-in-law believes we should totally cut them off until she stops living in sin with this man, based on Matthew 18:15. His family has done similarly with other members of their family ... and one time it ended in a situation in which a family member died and they were not reconciled. My mother-in-law doesn't believe we should cut them off completely ... make known our thoughts but still be charitable to them as a way to gently try and pursuade them back to the practice of the Faith. She has a Catholic (though not practicing) sister who is "living in sin" with a man, and they (both my in-laws, though my father-in-law less so) often visit them, go to holiday dinners, etc. etc. Father-in-law doesn't like it, but defends it saying, "She doesn't know any better ... didn't grow up knowing much about the Faith and doesn't understand the gravity of her situation."

SO ...

What is the mind of the Church on this? What is YOUR opinion on what I should do? Should I really cut off my mom? I'm inclined to think not. She had a VERY delicate emotional and psychological makeup and feels like everyone in the Church (and therefore the Church itself) is ganging up on her. I want to give her that last bit of hope, in a sense ... that she can return to God and to the Church and that God is merciful. She KNOWS full well that I don't condone what she's doing ... but I don't know, in talking to her and being there for her, she's starting to think she should come back to the Church. And I think that's a good thing. And I think that if I cut her off (which we had basically been doing for a few months) it would make things worse. And it did make things worse for a while. My husband and I aren't really sure how we should handle it.

ANYWAY ... please be honest with your opinion on this.

And you're a Saint for reading all this. And especially a Saint if you comment on it!

[cmotherofpirl]

I think you have to honor your parents even when they make really stupid decisions. Don't cut her out of your life, try to lead her home.

[Maggyie]

How I do enjoy being St. Maggie!

What a difficult situation your mother has put you in. I am so sorry for what you are dealing with, and sorry for her too, for I can't imagine how painful it must be to have so many close relationships like marriage break apart.

No, you should certainly not cut her off. This is never something the Church would teach or encourage! That is something Jehovah's Witnesses do! the "shunning" and so forth. Never ever a Catholic tradition or practice. I am sure your father in law means well but... no priest with good pastoral sense would suggest such a course of action.

Your husband and you have a good policy in place... she knows where you stand and that you have boundaries. She also knows you love her unconditionally and you are representing God's unconditional love for the sinner to her in that way. You are telling the truth and telling it with love and that is what we are called to do, so bravo.

ETA: And what you said about pathology seeking pathology is also very true, and her culpability may be very low for any of this. If only because she may be unwell or incomplete emotionally. Your in-laws ought to understand that is a better "excuse" (not to make excuses) for weakness than growing up without knowledge of the faith is.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Maggie

[Groo the Wanderer]

yer doing it right. hard to lead someone home by bashing them in the head. much easier to coax them home through love and prayer

[Cherie]

Thanks so much for your responses!!

What should I say, then, to my father-in-law? Almost every time we talk to them on the phone (which is almost every day!) he says something like, "Shouldn't you be keeping your distance from them...?" He feels like he has the Church's backing on that and quotes Scripture. I'd like to give him an example from the Church (St. Monica, maybe?) that would make him think twice about shunning.

[Lil Red]

tbh, it's none of your father-in-law's business. and if i were you, i would tell him so. (but i can be kinda confrontational)

[Maggyie]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341668469' post='2453104']
Thanks so much for your responses!!

What should I say, then, to my father-in-law? Almost every time we talk to them on the phone (which is almost every day!) he says something like, "Shouldn't you be keeping your distance from them...?" He feels like he has the Church's backing on that and quotes Scripture. I'd like to give him an example from the Church (St. Monica, maybe?) that would make him think twice about shunning.
[/quote]
It's really none of his business, but of course you can't really say that to an in-law. St. Monica is a perfect example. Also check out St. Edmund Campion - he was raised a Catholic (nominally), converted to Anglicanism while at Oxford for the sake of worldly concerns and was even ordained in the Anglican religion, before he was evangelized back to the Catholic faith and became a great saint. If he had been "shunned" his reconversion would never have occurred. Really that is the opposite of the missionary spirit.

[organwerke]

Well, first of all I can understand your father-in-law position, but a thing is to give an opinion, another thing is to repeatedly talk on the matter: I think this is a little offensive. If he go on asking, tell him to worry about his relative in the same situation that he goes on to see even if he doesn't like it rather than to your mother.
Then I think this is a problem that many catholics have, and it is not simple to have always the right soultion. First of all I think that you are not responsible for your mother's behaviours. Anyway you could ask her if her previous failures have taught her to avoid others in the future? Maybe to live separatedly from her man could mean to put the premises to avoid other mistakes and to build a new solid relationship? After all she can't deny three annulments are not something that happen by chance...
Anyway it is obvious you can only give her advices, you can't force her. You have to decide if eventually, cutting her off would help her to listen to your advices or not. You know the situation so you certainly know the best thing to do.
My only last consideration is that even in case you would decide not to have contact with her in this situation, you haven't to feel guilty, because after all it is your right not to see her if her situation put you in an embarassing state that you don't want to accept.

[Cherie]

Thank you so much everyone!!! May God reward you all!!!

I really do love my in-laws, but their meddling in this has really turned my attitude towards them sour, especially recently. My mom was instrumental during the birth of my daughter recently, and my father-in-law said something very rude about her to my husband and I found out. It was totally uncalled for. Ever since then I've wanted them (him, mostly) to stay out of it. Quoting something from the Church, even just an example from a Saint, would do the trick I think.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341671187' post='2453114']
Thank you so much everyone!!! May God reward you all!!!

I really do love my in-laws, but their meddling in this has really turned my attitude towards them sour, especially recently. My mom was instrumental during the birth of my daughter recently, and my father-in-law said something very rude about her to my husband and I found out. It was totally uncalled for. Ever since then I've wanted them (him, mostly) to stay out of it. Quoting something from the Church, even just an example from a Saint, would do the trick I think.
[/quote]

be careful that you don't get into a "contest" of one-upsmanship, where you provide him with a quote/example from a saint, and then he comes back with a different quote, etc.

i would just make it clear that this is a boundary line he is repeatedly crossing over, and you don't appreciate it. (honestly, he insulted your mother to your husband? and thought you wouldn't find out?? i think YOU are the saint, Cherie - because I wouldn't have kind words for my father-in-law if he had insulted my mom.)

[Cherie]

Honestly I don't think cutting her off WOULD be a good thing. I think it would push her further away from God, which has been evidenced during the number of months we did, basically, cut her off, at the advice (command?) of my father-in-law. Only recently have we started back up our relationship...and she's begun to talk about coming back to the Church again.

Don't get me wrong; I do truly love and admire my father-in-law. But like I said, this is one situation I'd prefer he stay out of. He is wonderful in many, many ways. But I don't think he knows my mom very well and doesn't realize his advice on this would do more harm than good.

Except if I'm SUPPOSED to cut them off, which is why I started this thread and am grateful for everyone's advice!!!

[Cherie]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341671645' post='2453115']
be careful that you don't get into a "contest" of one-upsmanship, where you provide him with a quote/example from a saint, and then he comes back with a different quote, etc.
[/quote]

Thanks; that's a good point and I will have to keep that in mind, because I'm very much the type to try and one-up people I'm angry with.

I think it's mostly just to give him SOME response. When he quotes Matthew 18 to defend his position, all of us: husband, myself, mother-in-law (all of us well-versed Catholics!!!) stand around like deer in headlights! I don't know why but we haven't really thought of anything to say to that ... kind of like, "Well, we don't think we should cut them off, we don't think that's the mind of the Church, but what can we say to that?"

[Jaime]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341672045' post='2453117']
Thanks; that's a good point and I will have to keep that in mind, because I'm very much the type to try and one-up people I'm angry with.

I think it's mostly just to give him SOME response. When he quotes Matthew 18 to defend his position, all of us: husband, myself, mother-in-law (all of us well-versed Catholics!!!) stand around like deer in headlights! I don't know why but we haven't really thought of anything to say to that ... kind of like, "Well, we don't think we should cut them off, we don't think that's the mind of the Church, but what can we say to that?"
[/quote]

Tell him "I know my mother better than you do, I love her and I will never cut her off." and change the subject. If he presses it, tell him you would never cut him off either.

[Norseman82]

Obvious question: why doesn't your husband handle his father so you don't have to?

Although I wouldn't cut your mother off completely, another option would be to simply not visit them at her "house", especially with children. If you want to meet her, invite her to your house or at a neutral location; you also have the option of not inviting her fornication partner. I have a cousin who is in a SS relationship; if she brings her "partner" along to family gatherings, I will talk with my cousin and give her a hug, but I do not acknowledge the "partner".

[Winchester]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341674132' post='2453127']
Obvious question: why doesn't your husband handle his father so you don't have to?

Although I wouldn't cut your mother off completely, another option would be to simply not visit them at her "house", especially with children. If you want to meet her, invite her to your house or at a neutral location; you also have the option of not inviting her fornication partner. I have a cousin who is in a SS relationship; if she brings her "partner" along to family gatherings, I will talk with my cousin and give her a hug, but I do not acknowledge the "partner".
[/quote]
Are they both hot?

[Winchester]

[img]http://stickerish.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/NowKissBlackSS.png[/img]

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/celebrities/23023-katy-perry/1251229293_katy_perry_290x402.jpg[/img]

[Lilllabettt]

Is your goal to change your FIL's mind about the right way to handle this?
Or just stop the uncomfortable interaction? <-----(this one is easier.)


Your MIL is exactly right! Tell her that in private. She will appreciate it!
Your husband should put his foot down with his father - in private. That's his job as your husband.
Mutually respectful, man-to-man, but the point firmly made: "the discussion about how my wife chooses to treat her family is over, please don't offer your thoughts on it anymore."

Edited July 7, 2012 by Lilllabettt

[CatherineM]

My mom lived in sin with my father for 30 years. They finally got married 2 years before he died, mostly for social security reasons. After he died, she proceeded to live with another man for 26 years. She recently went to a nursing home after he had a stoke. My mom's not catholic but took instruction twice and has lived her life as one so to speak.

I never cut her off because of her lifestyle. I did stop talking to her on the phone for a couple of years because of her manner not her living arrangements. I had a brother who did, but that was because he couldn't stand the guy mom was with.

What good would cutting her off do? Would it change her? Who is your FIL going to have you cut out next, your Jewish baker or Muslim hairdresser or how about your atheist neighbor. Christ didn't ignore the woman at the well, he spoke to her compassionately.

As someone very experienced in divorce mediation and family dynamics, this situation has more to do with your FIL than your mom.

[Cherie]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1341678486' post='2453138']
Is your goal to change your FIL's mind about the right way to handle this?
Or just stop the uncomfortable interaction? <-----(this one is easier.)


Your MIL is exactly right! Tell her that in private. She will appreciate it!
Your husband should put his foot down with his father - in private. That's his job as your husband.
Mutually respectful, man-to-man, but the point firmly made: "the discussion about how my wife chooses to treat her family is over, please don't offer your thoughts on it anymore."
[/quote]

Actually I think my goal IS to change FIL's mind about it. He is a good Catholic and, at least on the outside, seems pretty "open-minded" in the sense that he WOULD change his views if he thought that was the Church's view on things. I just want to provide him with reasons to rethink his position on that ... and we haven't really ever provided good examples of that, except by using the word "charity". A concrete example would make him think about it and I think that would be good for him, because he really does intend to do what's [i]right,[/i] and he thinks the [i]right[/i] thing to do, no matter how reluctant we are or how painful it would be, is to cut them off.

And honestly, my husband has tried to tell them to back off. I think it's partly my fault, because I am very close to my in-laws and have probably provided them with too much information, which makes them think they can tell us (and me, particularly) what to do about it. So that part is really my fault; I have a tendency sometimes to tell people too much. Prudence is one of my favorite virtues but I need a heck of a lot more of it.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1341678558' post='2453139']
As someone very experienced in divorce mediation and family dynamics, this situation has more to do with your FIL than your mom.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's true.