Opinions/help For A Family Situation

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341680915' post='2453144']
, because I am very close to my in-laws
[/quote]

just have to say ---all the other stuff aside -- that in itself is pure amesome.

[Ed Normile]

If you had to choose your mate by the quality of his family and he by the quality of your family then I doubt their would be any marriage at all in this world as family are people and we are not perfect. If you two can bear this cross with love and patience maybe your example can help some of those involved. As you know religion is a very personal matter and its a hard thing to try and change someones mind on issues they are set on, I doubt that scripture would affect your father in-law's mind set as he has already quoted you scripture which backs his ideals. Throwing up references to saints may seem offensive to him too if it seems you are trying to force your views on him, it would probably be more productive to work on him through your mother in-law by showing her these examples and adding that you and your husband would like to shepherd your mother the way these saints have shepherded their stray family. If you and your husband have children the actions of your mother will be more of a problem at that time, it will be tough to explain why grandma is living with a man and not living the example of faith which you are trying to instill in your child. Then again at that time maybe the thought of your mother not having a close relationship to your child may affect her spiritually in a positive way. This is a tough situation which can only be helped through prayer, and you have mine.

ed

[eagle_eye222001]

This post will be a bit long, but I want to be somewhat thorough.

First off, I want to establish the argument

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341672045' post='2453117']
....I think it's mostly just to give him SOME response. When he quotes Matthew 18 to defend his position, all of us: husband, myself, mother-in-law (all of us well-versed Catholics!!!) stand around like deer in headlights!..........

but what can we say to that?"
[/quote]


The Classic Modern Dilemma of faithful Catholics on how to interact with fallen brethren.


Your question inspired me to write a short tract on the matter. And while this is likely not the final version, I think it will help.


[center][b]Catholic Conduct Among Fallen Catholics[/b][/center]

The question of how one is to interact with (even at all) those who before were followers of Christ, but who presently, distinctly and deliberately choose to not follow the teachings of the Church, is a challenging and complicated one.

The standard rule was/is to disassociate completely from those Catholics who have reengaged on the faith. Below are the passages and citations in support of this.


[quote][i]“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he resues to listen even to the Church, let him be to as a Gentile and a tax collector.”[/i] -Matthew 18:15-17[/quote]



[quote][i]“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters. Since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber-not even to eat with such a one.”[/i] -1 Corinthians 5:9-11[/quote]



[quote][i]“Elect for yourselves, therefore, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, humble men and not lovers of money, truthful and proven; for they also serve you in the ministry of the prophets and teachers. Do not, therefore, despise them; for they are your honorable men, together with the prophets and teachers. Correct one another, not in anger but in peace, as you find it in the gospel; and let no one speak with you who has done a wrong to his neighbor, nor let him hear, until he repents. Your prayers and your alms and all your acts you shall perform as you find in the gospel of the Lord.”[/i] -Didache [15,1][/quote]


Okay. These three quotations seem fairly straightforward on how a faithful Catholic is to interact with a dedicated fallen away Catholic. However, the first point to note, is that this seems to be a disciplinary rule, and therefore may be modified as the Church dully sees fit.

Some other quotations to note.


[quote][i]“My brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sin.”[/i] -James 5:19[/quote]



[quote][i]“Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.” [/i] -Galatians 6:1[/quote]


I would argue that our continued interaction with those who have fallen away, is an ongoing attempt to bring them back. Therefore, we are not in violation if we do not get to the "never speak again" phase, but rather continue get together with them in hopes that we are availed opportunities to bring them back.

Two clarification points.

1. Be careful never to approve of their sin. Do make sure they understand you do not approve.
2. You don't always have to talk "religion" when you get together with those who have fallen. By talking about secular things, you are still able to present yourself as a faithful Catholic trying to live out your faith in the best way.



So when someone throws Matthew 18 at you, I would counter-point that it is a disciplinary measure to be carried out by the Church as seen fit. Also I would counter that you are carrying out Matthew 18. Your continued [i]qualified [/i]presence is an ongoing attempt to bring them back.

Although there are times when it may be proper to cut off communication, however I would argue this need not always happen necessarily.

This situation is somewhat subjective, and therefore should be treated with caution when criticizing one's approach.

[franciscanheart]

CherieMadame, I think you're right on in thinking that you should keep the lines of communication open and act charitably toward her no matter her decisions in life. We don't convert hearts by ignoring those who suffer.

[PhuturePriest]

I can't say anything others haven't already. Keep in contact with your mother, be a good witness to the Faith, love her with the Faith, and always try to respect her, even when it is difficult. I would also prepare in case she comes to you for comfort if/when she and her friend separate. As you say pathology seek pathology, and there is a good chance this man is also a "marshmallow fluff", as you kindly put it. Pray for her as Saint Monica prayed for Saint Augustine, and hope for the best. This is really all you can do.

You will be in my prayers.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341674132' post='2453127']
I have a cousin who is in a SS relationship; if she brings her "partner" along to family gatherings, I will talk with my cousin and give her a hug, but I do not acknowledge the "partner".
[/quote]
There is nothing to be gained by ignoring another human being in a family gathering. Catholics do NOT practice shunning , it is not Christ-like in any way. You don't have to agree with someone's behavior to acknowledge their existance and good manners are appropriate no matter what the situation.

[add]

Silence cuts like a knife. Family is a terrible thing to lose. Life is short.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1341767355' post='2453504']
There is nothing to be gained by ignoring another human being in a family gathering. Catholics do NOT practice shunning , it is not Christ-like in any way. You don't have to agree with someone's behavior to acknowledge their existance and good manners are appropriate no matter what the situation.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I cannot in conscience do anything that may be perceived as giving legitimacy to such an "arrangement".

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341772132' post='2453535']


I'm sorry, but I cannot in conscience do anything that may be perceived as giving legitimacy to such an "arrangement".
[/quote]Norse, at a certain point it becomes hateful towards the sinner as well as the sin. But that's what religion is for.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341780580' post='2453603']Norse, at a certain point it becomes hateful towards the sinner as well as the sin. But that's what religion is for.[/quote]

you know, people being jerks isn't just confined to a 'religious" thing.

[Anomaly]

Intended to be more sarcastic then jerky, but fair enough. We can use anything to justify jerkiness.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341772132' post='2453535']
I'm sorry, but I cannot in conscience do anything that may be perceived as giving legitimacy to such an "arrangement".
[/quote]
What happened to love the sinner, hate the sin???

Jesus Christ NEVER shunned another human being because they were sinners. Are you not supposed to be following Him? What a great example of charity.



"Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God."
- 1 John 4,7
"He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity."
- 1 John 4,8

[Papist]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341668469' post='2453104']
Thanks so much for your responses!!

What should I say, then, to my father-in-law? Almost every time we talk to them on the phone (which is almost every day!) he says something like, "Shouldn't you be keeping your distance from them...?" He feels like he has the Church's backing on that and quotes Scripture. I'd like to give him an example from the Church (St. Monica, maybe?) that would make him think twice about shunning.
[/quote]

After biting a hole in my lip, I would simply respond to him saying, "She's my mother. I can not, I will not abandon her.". I wonder what he would have his son do in this situation. It is very easy for him to tell you what to do being far removed from the situation. I'd just let FIL words go in one ear and out the other. I would not try to justify my actions to him.

As far your mother, I think you did great. You let her know how you understand and think of the situation. I don't think you need to keep hammering into her what she needs/should to do. She knows how much you are a faithful Catholic and probably knows full well your thoughts on this. I believe the best thing you can do now is love your mother and be there whenever she needs you.

If this was me and my parent, I make it clear that as long as he/she was living with someone outside of marriage, their grandchildren will not visit, which basically means me too. And that if he/she comes to visit, his/her housemate cannot.

[Papist]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341772132' post='2453535']
I'm sorry, but I cannot in conscience do anything that may be perceived as giving legitimacy to such an "arrangement".
[/quote]

If everyone shunned, cut off sinners, everyone would be friendless.

[Papist]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1341787513' post='2453634']
What happened to love the sinner, hate the sin???

Jesus Christ NEVER shunned another human being because they were sinners. Are you not supposed to be following Him? What a great example of charity.



"Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God."
- 1 John 4,7
"He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity."
- 1 John 4,8
[/quote]

Also, how can you say you love God who you cannot see, yet hate your neighbor whom you can see.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341792061' post='2453656']
After biting a hole in my lip, I would simply respond to him saying, "She's my mother. I can not, I will not abandon her.". I wonder what he would have his son do in this situation. It is very easy for him to tell you what to do being far removed from the situation. I'd just let FIL words go in one ear and out the other. I would not try to justify my actions to him.

As far your mother, I think you did great. You let her know how you understand and think of the situation. I don't think you need to keep hammering into her what she needs/should to do. She knows how much you are a faithful Catholic and probably knows full well your thoughts on this. I believe the best thing you can do now is love your mother and be there whenever she needs you.

If this was me and my parent, I make it clear that as long as he/she was living with someone outside of marriage, their grandchildren will not visit, which basically means me too. And that if he/she comes to visit, his/her housemate cannot.
[/quote]But on the other hand, you could meet in neutral territory for lunch.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1341787513' post='2453634']
What happened to love the sinner, hate the sin???

Jesus Christ NEVER shunned another human being because they were sinners. Are you not supposed to be following Him? What a great example of charity.



"Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God."
- 1 John 4,7
"He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity."
- 1 John 4,8
[/quote]

I think the fact that I'm not sprinkling holy water on them, not telling them at every turn to repent or they will burn in hell (save the time I told them to not go through with their "conmmitment" ceremony because they wee placing their souls in danger, unless you think that was wrong, too), and not nagging them that their "arrangement" means that somewhere there are two men that cannot find wives is charity enough for me.

There is also a saying that it is not charity to confirm another in their sin. You're not the only one that can pull Bible verses and pious sentiments out of thin air.

Do you also believe it was wrong for me to not attend their "committment" ceremony?

Edited July 9, 2012 by Norseman82

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341792480' post='2453659']
If everyone shunned, cut off sinners, everyone would be friendless.
[/quote]

Oh come on now, as a Catholic you should know that certain sins are more serious than others. That is a very CatholicinSD type of emotional argument.

Maybe the reason that we are in the mess we are in today with "Catholics" accepting same-sex marriage is that we're NOT taking a hard enough stand on such behavior, but instead

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341792757' post='2453660']
Also, how can you say you love God who you cannot see, yet hate your neighbor whom you can see.
[/quote]

Who says that by refusing to giving legitimacy to a wrong arrangement one is being hateful? That type of statement is straight out of the secular playbook. Please don't be duped by the secular anti-Christian phrasebook.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Norseman82

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1341787513' post='2453634']
What happened to love the sinner, hate the sin???

Jesus Christ NEVER shunned another human being because they were sinners. Are you not supposed to be following Him? What a great example of charity.



"Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God."
- 1 John 4,7
"He that loveth not, knoweth not God: for God is charity."
- 1 John 4,8
[/quote]

Love the sinner, hate the sin is a fairly modern concept which has nurtured sinners in their sin by not being told they are wrong. IMO. I do beleive Jesus loved sinners as he died for them, but he also in his ministry told sinners to " go forth and sin no more " I doubt he would have said I love you and will still love you even if you persist in sin, but hey, I am gonna hate that sin fer sure! I think his message was clear, sin no more. We know as catholics we can receive the sacrament of Absolution and Penance, but we also know we are to detest our sin and firmly resolve with the help of His grace to sin no more. So turning a blind eye too a sinner, or welcoming them in your home with full knowledge of their sin and not admonishing them , well that would just be enabling them in the sin.

ed

Edited July 9, 2012 by Ed Normile