Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[Peace]

Are you equating your belief with an irrational proposition?

 I sure hope not.

They are not asking for your theological-reasoning since they do not accept your belief and tradition but rather, they are asking for your logical, rational and understandable explanation on how your sins are forgiven thru his death.

Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that the question assumes something that I do not advocate. If you (or someone else) desires an explanation of how I believe that my sins are forgiven through Jesus's death - the Catholic Encyclopedia or Wikipedia article on atonement should suffice. I think the Council of Trent also has a long section on justification. All of those views make some degree of sense to me, although I do not fully understand them to the point where I would say that one is right and others are wrong. I would guess that the "penal-substitution" view would be the one that most non-Catholics could most easily relate to.

And I think that theological reasoning is perfectly logical, rational, and understandable as any other form of reasoning.

I will repeat again what I already discuss in this forum. Apostle Paul and all God’s true witnessess are not referring to your historical Jesus as the Christ. They are referring to another Jesus different from the one you already accepted.

Oh. That is an interesting hypothesis. By this I take it to mean that you believe that the Catholic view of Jesus is not consistent with the Jesus of the Bible? Tisk. Tisk. Them sounds like fighting words.

What Jesus is it that they are referring to in your opinion? I hope we are not talking Reza Aslan's Jesus or something along those lines . . .

[reyb]

 I sure hope not.

Sure. But that doesn't change the fact that the question assumes something that I do not advocate. If you (or someone else) desires an explanation of how I believe that my sins are forgiven through Jesus's death - the Catholic Encyclopedia or Wikipedia article on atonement should suffice. I think the Council of Trent also has a long section on justification. All of those views make some degree of sense to me, although I do not fully understand them to the point where I would say that one is right and others are wrong. I would guess that the "penal-substitution" view would be the one that most non-Catholics could most easily relate to.

And I think that theological reasoning is perfectly logical, rational, and understandable as any other form of reasoning.

Oh. That is an interesting hypothesis. By this I take it to mean that you believe that the Catholic view of Jesus is not consistent with the Jesus of the Bible? Tisk. Tisk. Them sounds like fighting words.

What Jesus is it that they are referring to in your opinion? I hope we are not talking Reza Aslan's Jesus or something along those lines . . .

 

I was once a Catholic and a believer of whatever you honestly adored today, and I too, may possibly feel, whatever concern you have for me if I were on shoes and you are on mine at this very moment. I am talking like this because, I know, you do not or may not trust me but, I am not lying or playing around with you. This ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ is not the same ‘Jesus of Apostle Paul’. They are not preaching one and the same Jesus Christ.

In early days of Christianity, different groups of people see or look or honor different kind of Jesus. Gnostic Christians see Jesus, a ghost like Jesus as your early fathers called it, while Ignatius taught about this historical Jesus. Ironically, both of them are claiming that theirs is the same ‘Jesus of Apostle Paul’ since they honored the same book and letters of Luke and Apostle Paul.

Actually, Gnostic Christian Marcion of Sinope (c85-c160) canonized the Book of Luke and Letters of Apostle Paul (see http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-canon-of-marcion.htm) ahead than that of your early fathers. Marcion was a student of Gnostic Scholar Valentinus(c100-160) (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic), who was in turn a follower of Apostle Paul’s disciples named Theudas (died c46AD) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas_(teacher_of_Valentinius).  While, according to Catholic tradition, especially from Eusebius (c260-c340), Ignatius of Antioch (35-117)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch) was one the children ‘whom Jesus took in his arm’, a student of John the Apostle, and succeeded Saint Peter and St. Evodius. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evodius).

Now, why I am telling you about this? Because, I want you to see that this ‘ghost-like Jesus’ and ‘historical Jesus’ are different rendition of Christian believers to the letters of Apostle Paul and Luke. They are different interpretation to ‘Jesus of Apostle Paul’. 

How come Theudas, a disciple of Apostle Paul, do not believe in a ‘historical Jesus’ if Apostle Paul was truly referring to him, and considering Theudas was (probably ) born first before Ignatius?

Nevertheless, let us set it aside since it is already a dead topic but, I want you to realize that none of your early fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement,…etc) and even Luke and Apostle Paul, saw this ‘Jesus of Ignatius’.

So, let us agree on this, that this ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ or ‘historical Jesus’  is just another rendition or interpretation of your early fathers to the letters of Luke and Apostle Paul.

Now, can you explain how your sins are forgiven (by God) thru the death of this historical Jesus? (I am asking you like this because Apostle Paul clearly explain it.) 

Edited August 27, 2015 by reyb

[Socrates]

Bro. I think I have at least average intelligence. But I find it a bit difficult to understand exactly what it is you are trying to say here. Can you explain what you want to say a little more simply?

But anyway, I do not think that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus had to die, so I do not see any reason why anyone should have to explain it.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect him to make any more sense than he has in the the previous 16 pages (and in countless similar now long-buried threads).  Reyb and reason are like oil and water.

[Peace]

I was once a Catholic and a believer of whatever you honestly adored today

Somehow I have my suspicions that our beliefs did not coincide.

and I too, may possibly feel, whatever concern you have for me if I were on shoes and you are on mine at this very moment. I am talking like this because, I know, you do not or may not trust me but, I am not lying or playing around with you. This ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ is not the same ‘Jesus of Apostle Paul’. They are not preaching one and the same Jesus Christ.

Yeah I know right! Why would I read someone like St. Paul or St. Ignatius when I can go on the Internet and be enlightened by the Gospel of ReyB instead? What I have I been thinking all of these years?

Now, why I am telling you about this?

You read my mind. You really did. And yet I still do not understand you in the least.

So, let us agree on this, that this ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ or ‘historical Jesus’  is just another rendition or interpretation of your early fathers to the letters of Luke and Apostle Paul.

Now, can you explain how your sins are forgiven (by God) thru the death of this historical Jesus? (I am asking you like this because Apostle Paul clearly explain it.) 

I can't agree to that. Sorry. Because I have no idea what you are talking about.

As for your question, I thought I had already tried to answer that, but perhaps I can try again. But before I am to begin to engage in earnest conversation with a heretic, I am going to need some definitions first please. Because I honesty have no idea what you are talking about:

1) Please define "Jesus of Ignatius".

2) Please define "historical Jesus".

3) Please define "Jesus of the Apostle Paul".

4) Are you asserting that one of your "Jesus of Ignatius", your "historical Jesus", or your "Jesus of the Apostle Paul" is correct?  If so, which one are you asserting is correct?

5) Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a real person that existed in history - just as you and I exist today?

6) Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?

7) If you believe that Paul clearly explains the answer to your question - why exactly is it that you want me to answer it? It would seem that this conversation would be a bit more efficient if you just come out and state whatever it is that you desire to convey.

Peace

Edited August 28, 2015 by Peace

[reyb]

 ....... If you (or someone else) desires an explanation of how I believe that my sins are forgiven through Jesus's death -......

 

......

As for your question, I thought I had already tried to answer that, but perhaps I can try again. .....

 

I am not asking for an explanation on how or what you believe….…but rather, how do you ‘know’ that your sins are truly forgiven by God thru it. I know you believe in ‘penal-substitution’. But this ‘penal-substitution’ is also a part of your religious ‘belief’.  

 Let me give you some example. In Jewish tradition, they truly believed that their sins are forgiven by God thru this ‘sin offering’. Do you think they really ‘know’ how it become possible?

 Another example…. Aztec truly believed that their human sacrifices sustains life in the whole universe. Do you think they really 'know' how this human sacrifices sustain life in the Universe?

 Another example…Catholics believed that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus. How do you know its truthfulness if it cannot be detected by senses and understanding? (Summa Theologica ,Q75).

 Are you saying, it is really true because you believe and have faith? How about them (Jews and Aztec)? Do you think they are aware that they are wrong?

 So, again,  How do you know that your sins are truly forgiven by God thru his death?  

Edited August 28, 2015 by reyb

[Peace]

I am not asking for an explanation on how or what you believe….…but rather, how do you ‘know’ that your sins are truly forgiven by God thru it. I know you believe in ‘penal-substitution’. But this ‘penal-substitution’ is also a part of your religious ‘belief’.  

I would not say that I believe in penal substitution. But it makes some sense to me.

As for your question - I do not know that my sins are truly forgiven by God. In this answer, when I say "know" I mean "have absolute certainty".

But I have faith that if I do what Jesus commands (baptism and confession in particular) then my sins will be forgiven. And I believe that the factual evidence we have makes it more likely than not that what the Catholic Church teaches is true.

Let me give you some example. In Jewish tradition, they truly believed that their sins are forgiven by God thru this ‘sin offering’. Do you think they really ‘know’ how it become possible?

I do not have an opinion on that. Please define "know" in your sentence above. The word "know" can mean many things, ranging from absolute mathematical certainty to a general hope.

 Another example…. Aztec truly believed that their human sacrifices sustains life in the whole universe. Do you think they really 'know' how this human sacrifices sustain life in the Universe?

 I do not have an opinion on that either. Please define "know" in your sentence above. The word "know" can mean many things, ranging from absolute mathematical certainty to a general hope.

Another example…Catholics believed that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus. How do you know its truthfulness if it cannot be detected by senses and understanding? (Summa Theologica ,Q75).

 As for your question - I do not know that the Eucharist is the true body of blood of Jesus. In this answer, when I say "know" I mean "have absolute certainty".

But I have faith that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus. And I believe that the factual evidence we have makes it more likely than not that what the Catholic Church has taught concerning the Eucharist is true.

Are you saying, it is really true because you believe and have faith?

No. I am not saying that it is true because I believe and have faith in it. What the Catholic Church teaches could be false.

I have faith that what it teaches is true, and I believe that the factual evidence we have makes it more likely than not that what the Catholic Church teaches is true.

How about them (Jews and Aztec)? Do you think they are aware that they are wrong?

I doubt that they believe that they are wrong.

So, again,  How do you know that your sins are truly forgiven by God thru his death?  

Please refer to my answer above. I do not have absolute certainty. But I have faith and good reason to believe that what the Catholic Church has taught concerning this matter is true.

[Peace]

Edit:

LOL. OK. I finally read through this thread. Why didn't anyone warn me that ReyB is a nutjob? I guess I only have myself to blame really. Others seem to have figured that out way before I have. . .

ReyB - we will pray for you man.

Peace!

[Peace]

But seriously. I think that we need a bit of an intervention here. I think that we to discuss the following:

When I see myself like a metatron then I realized who is my Lord after it was gone. This is how you will see your body which is actually not your body anymore. That body is burning like the burning bush of Moses in the sacred mountain. You are like that man mentioned by Apostle Paul who was taken up in paradise, the man of lawlessness.

After that I realized who is my Lord. He is me in the very beginning but, now he left me for a while to come back again and I will be gone forever in Him.

This is some truly unique stuff.  But what exactly are you saying?

1) Are you saying that you saw an angel?

2) Are you saying that you became an angel?

3) Are you saying that you stepped outside of your own body?

4) Are you saying that you stepped outside of your own body and then saw yourself, which had the appearance of a flaming bush?

5) Are you saying that you stepped outside of your own body and then saw yourself, which had the appearance of a flaming bush, after which you saw "the Jesus that is different than the historical Jesus"?

6) Are you saying that God pays you personal visits from time to time in some ghost-like form?

7) When you write that "you will be gone forever in Him" are you saying that you will one day leave your body, which will be gone forever, and then you will meld into God somehow?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Peace

[Nihil Obstat]

That dude is the only Phatmasser I have ever had on my ignore list.

[Peace]

That dude is the only Phatmasser I have ever had on my ignore list.

Oh. Interesting. I did not know we could do that.

But I would like to figure out exactly what it is that he believes and how he came to believe it. It seems to be pretty far out there in la-la land. . .

[Peace]

Deleted Double Post.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Peace

[reyb]

Thanks for your advice.

Metatron, man of lawlessness and burning bush are different presentation made by different witnesses to just one thing namely the ‘Coming of Son of Man’.I am very much willing to explain about it but obviously, you are not really for it since there is dishonesty .

I said in my previous post.........

So, let us agree on this, that this ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ or ‘historical Jesus’  is just another rendition or interpretation of your early fathers to the letters of Luke and Apostle Paul. .....

And then you said........

I can't agree to that. Sorry. Because I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Honestly? Really, you have no idea? Actually, I do not need to define what I meant by ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ since I already show it even before you asked for it. So, let me say, I am not yet ready to explain to you what was fulfilled in us, and If you think I do not know what I am talking about then, it is to my loss since Apostle Paul said...’... They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (1 Tim 1:3-7).

Actually, that is how your presented your faith in your previous post (read it carefully).

I would not say that I believe in penal substitution. But it makes some sense to me.

 

As for your question - I do not know that my sins are truly forgiven by God. In this answer, when I say "know" I mean "have absolute certainty".

 

But I have faith that if I do what Jesus commands (baptism and confession in particular) then my sins will be forgiven. And I believe that the factual evidence we have makes it more likely than not that what the Catholic Church teaches is true.

...... As for your question - I do not know that the Eucharist is the true body of blood of Jesus. In this answer, when I say "know" I mean "have absolute certainty".

But I have faith that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Jesus. And I believe that the factual evidence we have makes it more likely than not that what the Catholic Church has taught concerning the Eucharist is true.

......

So....

How can you be sure of what you are hoping (see Heb 11:1)  if you are not 100% percent certain on what you believe?

There is sadness in my heart. 

 

Edited August 30, 2015 by reyb

[Peace]

Thanks for your advice.

Metatron, man of lawlessness and burning bush are different presentation made by different witnesses to just one thing namely the ‘Coming of Christ’.I am very much willing to explain about it but obviously, you are not really for it since there is dishonesty .

I said in my previous post.........

If you are willing to explain it then go ahead and explain it. Or do not explain it. It is your choice - but I am not going to answer your questions if you will not answer mine.

Honestly? Really, you have no idea? Actually, I do not need to define what I meant by ‘Jesus of Ignatius’ since I already show it even before you asked for it. So, let me say, I am not yet ready to explain to you what was fulfilled in us, and If you think I do not know what I am talking about then, it is to my loss since Apostle Paul said...’... They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (1 Tim 1:3-7).

Actually, that is how your presented your faith in your previous post (read it carefully).

Again - I am not going to answer your questions if you will not answer mine.

So....

How can you be sure of what you are hoping (see Heb 11:1)  if you are not 100% percent certain on what you believe?

There is sadness in my heart. 

 Heb 11:1 does not say "be sure of what you are hoping". I do not know what you are talking about. And I do not need to be "sure" or "100% certain" about anything. I have faith in Jesus and the church that He created here on Earth. I am perfectly at peace with that.

[reyb]

Okay.

You are correct in Hebrew 11:1.  It does not say 'be sure of what you are hoping' ....

It is written 'Heb 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
NIV

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2015 by reyb

[Peace]

Okay.

You are correct in Hebrew 11:1.  It does not say 'be sure of what you are hoping' ....

It is written 'Heb 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
NIV

 

 

 

The NIV is a protestant translation. It does not carry much weight here.