Why Did Jesus Have To Die?

[reyb]

Then, it comes the second issue I know Catholics do not accept my statement, ‘when God reveal ‘Jesus is Christ’, He reveals everything about Him’.but Apostle Paul said the same thing. It is written in 1 Cor 2:1-5, He said,

[indent=1]When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power[/indent]

Take note what he said ‘.For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified’ While is other part of his letter you can see he knows 'even the deep things of God'. So, what is the difference between his testimony and my statement that ‘when God reveals that ‘Jesus is Christ’ He reveal everything about Him’?

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350176323' post='2493180']
Gnosticism?

2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][3][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][4][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b]we[/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][5][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u]s[/u][/b]."

Again, the above denotes a common understanding, not an individual one and this common understading is one directly connected to the time of Jesus and His apostles.
[/quote]


I am not a Gnostic like Marcion. Now, if you will consider Apostle Paul a Gnostic then I am happy to be called as such.

Let us discuss 2 Cor 11:1-6. Are you saying this ‘great apostles’ is the apostles of Jesus like Peter, John...etc (the twelve disciple (except Judas of course) of Jesus in the synoptic gospel).?

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350178013' post='2493194']
But honestly, reyb, this is all just going round and round in circles, you interpreting one way and others interpreting another - and though lengthy, this thread is going nowhere whatsoever except round and round in circles. [b]I am wondering if you adhere to the Morman beliefs - that Jesus visited North America in person or something along those lines?[/b] I answered your question re why Jesus had to die back further in this thread, I hope you will answer my question.

God bless us all.
[/quote]
[size=4]T[/size]he Book of Mormons is just another Best Seller story like Augustine's City of Gods. Joseph Smith is not a true prophet of God. He is just a good story teller like the creator of Lord of the Rings. I hope there are Mormons here who are listening to us. You must be informed.

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1349523158' post='2490633']
Reby's Post on 4th October 2012 : [b]"But still, I can testify why he died and without his death no one will be saved."[/b]
I would be interested in reading your thoughts, reby. [/quote]
BarbaraTherese,
Are you referring to this (see above post). Okay I will prepare my answer.

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

[quote] Reyb :
Let us discuss 2 Cor 11:1-6. Are you saying this ‘great apostles’ is the apostles of Jesus like Peter, John...etc (the twelve disciple (except Judas of course) of Jesus in the synoptic gospel).? [/quote]


OHhh nooo, pleaaase, not more questions, reyb!

Edited October 14, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350198510' post='2493234']


OHhh nooo, pleaaase, not more questions, reyb!
[/quote]

Okay. I am sorry.

[BarbTherese]

No need to be sorry, reyb - I just had to burst out laughing at another question. But I do commend you for the simple sincerity of "Okay I am sorry" .

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350191490' post='2493231']
I am not a Gnostic like Marcion. Now, if you will consider Apostle Paul a Gnostic then I am happy to be called as such.

Let us discuss 2 Cor 11:1-6. Are you saying this ‘great apostles’ is the apostles of Jesus like Peter, John...etc (the twelve disciple (except Judas of course) of Jesus in the synoptic gospel).?
[/quote]

Ok, you are not gnostic with secret knowledge you say, neither was the Apostle Paul.

I quoted : " 2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][color=#0f72da][3][/color][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][color=#0f72da][4][/color][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b][u]we[/u][/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][color=#0f72da][5][/color][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u][u]s[/u][/u][/b]."

Yes, I am saying that "great apostles" are the apostles of Jesus in His lifetime. 1 Corinthians Ch1 " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=10#x"][10][/url] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. .....................[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=30#x"][30][/url] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption".

With respect, reyb, if you are going to mention this 'historical Jesus' of which you have spoken previously - and some other Jesus unknown to the Catholic Faith, please explain quite clearly how you define 'historical Jesus' and the Jesus known to you. This does sound awful like some sort of secret knowledge, although if you claim that you have none, then you do not. But to me at this point, it sounds like "secret knowledge" which gives "secret understandings" as I have no idea what you mean by either definition of these two "Jesus terms", since you haven't really given any..

Is it secret 'knowledge', or is it some sort of 'knowledge' shared with others?

I really dont know what you are on about since the Catholic Faith teaches that Jesus was crucified for us, for our sins. A few members have already given why they think it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and to my mind all have something of value to say. However, we cannot know exactly what was in the mind of The Father beyond any sort of doubts, i.e. precise knowledge and understanding. If we do have such, again to my mind, it is a secret sort of knowledge and understanding. Unless it is some sort of trick question of yours - some sort of trickey type questions constructed deliberately as a sort of stumblilng block. However, a stumbling block it cannot be, only a trick question with the questioner already having the answer in mind and relentless unless 'the class' comes up with his answer and only his answer. It may well be the obvious that is just simply overlooked though embraced - but to the tutor it is incorrect understanding. A rigid and unbending outlook.

[b] [u]gnos·tic[/u][/b]
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. [color=#333333]possessing[/color] knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of [color=#333333]spiritual[/color] matters.
3. ( initial capital letter ) [color=#333333]pertaining[/color] to or characteristic of the [color=#333333]Gnostics.[/color]

[reyb]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350202820' post='2493239']
Ok, you are not gnostic with secret knowledge you say, neither was the Apostle Paul.

I quoted : " 2 Corinthians 11 : " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=3#x"][color=#0f72da][3][/color][/url] But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=4#x"][color=#0f72da][4][/color][/url] For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom [u][b][u]we[/u][/b][/u] have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=11&l=5#x"][color=#0f72da][5][/color][/url] For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the [b]great apostle[u][u]s[/u][/u][/b]."

Yes, I am saying that "great apostles" are the apostles of Jesus in His lifetime. 1 Corinthians Ch1 " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=10#x"][10][/url] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. .....................[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=1&l=30#x"][30][/url] But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption".

With respect, reyb, if you are going to mention this 'historical Jesus' of which you have spoken previously - and some other Jesus unknown to the Catholic Faith, please explain quite clearly how you define 'historical Jesus' and the Jesus known to you. This does sound awful like some sort of secret knowledge, although if you claim that you have none, then you do not. But to me at this point, it sounds like "secret knowledge" which gives "secret understandings" as I have no idea what you mean by either definition of these two "Jesus terms", since you haven't really given any..

Is it secret 'knowledge', or is it some sort of 'knowledge' shared with others?

I really dont know what you are on about since the Catholic Faith teaches that Jesus was crucified for us, for our sins. A few members have already given why they think it was necessary for Jesus to be crucified and to my mind all have something of value to say. However, we cannot know exactly what was in the mind of The Father beyond any sort of doubts, i.e. precise knowledge and understanding. If we do have such, again to my mind, it is a secret sort of knowledge and understanding. Unless it is some sort of trick question of yours - some sort of trickey type questions constructed deliberately as a sort of stumblilng block. However, a stumbling block it cannot be, only a trick question with the questioner already having the answer in mind and relentless unless 'the class' comes up with his answer and only his answer. It may well be the obvious that is just simply overlooked though embraced - but to the tutor it is incorrect understanding. A rigid and unbending outlook.

[b] [u]gnos·tic[/u][/b]
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. [color=#333333]possessing[/color] knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of [color=#333333]spiritual[/color] matters.
3. ( initial capital letter ) [color=#333333]pertaining[/color] to or characteristic of the [color=#333333]Gnostics.[/color]
[/quote]


I said I am not Gnostic like Marcion because I do not know Marcion or I never read any of his letters. I am not aware too if Gnostics are intentionally hiding any particular knowledge or not though it can be shared thus, I do not belong to them since I am not hiding anything from you.

But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling us that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

The one I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’ is your Jesus in Catholics’ salvation history. I hope it is very clear now. You can see how easy to share your Jesus from one man to another. Just two of you come together, one is sharing the other is listening and at once, if both is willing it can be shared easily. You see how easily we can understand each other regarding this Jesus we are now talking about.

But I am telling in this forum many times that there is another Jesus which is still hidden from you and that is the Jesus Apostle Paul is truly saying and not your historical Jesus. You said I need to tell you who is that ‘other Jesus’ and just like I said before. Your request is not possible because only God can reveal him. I am not lying to you. It cannot be shared by anyone even if a true witness is willing. Thus, this whole ‘sharing thing’ is termed by Apostle Paul, ‘foolishness of God’ in 1 Cor 1:25. A willing witness who cannot share what he saw and a willing listener who cannot understand what he is sharing and a God who says proclaim it because I want all of you to be saved. To make it clearer to you, even all of us come together – all of us in heaven and on earth come together as one in sharing and listening to each other. We cannot reveal Him because only God can do it. That is how, ‘How foolish it is’. Thus Apostle Paul said (1 Cor 1:25) ‘For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,

But I see a way how can I come into your heart. I will share my love to you by showing you your fault. I know you will get mad at me. But still, I will share my Lord to you.

Edited October 14, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1350176932' post='2493187']
Members have posted previously why they believe Jesus had to die to save sinners.
It rather reminds me of when I was studying and the tutor would ask the same question continually until a student came up with the same answer that was always in the mind of the tutor. In other words, the tutor would accept nothing but his or her own opinion or answer to the question. And if no student came up with that opinion or answer, then it was deemed by the tutor that the class had failed to answer the question in the first place. Sometimes, what was in fact happening, was that the tutor refused to accept anything but his or her own opinion or answer and thus could not hear what his or her students were actually saying, nor wanted to do so.
[/quote]
awsome!

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350142739' post='2493065']
When God reveal to me his Christ, he exposed that this historical Jesus is a lie.
[/quote]
Can you explain why God would teach and propagate the story of Jesus and his love for us for 2k years and then ask you, who no one will believe, to tell the world that it is all a lie? Why you? why not someone who will be of influence to the world. After 600 years The Muslims tried to denounce Jesus doctrine because it did not suit their ethnic traditions. We don't listen to the Muslims, why should we listen to you?
For 2000 years God has been telling people that the gospel of Jesus is a lie and to not listen and the the Catholic Church is evil. Except that it is not God it is the liar and deceiver which is satan. You're being fooled Rey! Hopefully one day you will come to listen to these patient and spiritual people who only wish to help you.

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350187982' post='2493222']
Why did Christ have to die? Couldn’t God have forgiven sins without this?
[/quote]
[i]No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends[/i]. People suffering intensely and dying and watching their loved ones suffer and die would lose faith if it wasn't that Jesus accepted a suffering agonizing death to show us that death is the only way to his kingdom not of this world. Often that means we must suffer. He doesn't tell us why it has to be that way. We accept what he tells us with faith because of this demonstration of love for us.

[i]I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you a co-redeemer of humanity.[/i]

Edited October 14, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[reyb]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1350252461' post='2493387']
awsome!


[b]Can you explain why God would teach and propagate the story of Jesus and his love for us for 2k years and then ask you, who no one will believe, to tell the world that it is all a lie? [/b]Why you? why not someone who will be of influence to the world. After 600 years The Muslims tried to denounce Jesus doctrine because it did not suit their ethnic traditions. We don't listen to the Muslims, why should we listen to you?
For 2000 years God has been telling people that the gospel of Jesus is a lie and to not listen and the the Catholic Church is evil. Except that it is not God it is the liar and deceiver which is satan. You're being fooled Rey! Hopefully one day you will come to listen to these patient and spiritual people who only wish to help you.


[i]No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends[/i]. People suffering intensely and dying and watching their loved ones suffer and die would lose faith if it wasn't that Jesus accepted a suffering agonizing death to show us that death is the only way to his kingdom not of this world. Often that means we must suffer. He doesn't tell us why it has to be that way. We accept what he tells us with faith because of this demonstration of love for us.

[i]I must accept whatever sickness, torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you a co-redeemer of humanity.[/i]
[/quote]


This is the problem for many Catholics. You are not reading the scripture carefully and scrutinize you belief based on truth and reality. You do not learn how to judge yourself properly and treat other people like yourself. All of us are just ‘believers’. Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group. Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.

In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’. It is your early fathers who said it and not God. It is not even Apostle Paul who tells them about this coming of historical Jesus otherwise he will never mention another Jesus in his letter. It is not even synoptic Gospel writer like Luke who tell them about historical Jesus since he already said in the beginning of his letter that it is just a 'narration' or a 'story' to ponder and not a 'historical event' which you will just accept to be true without seeing its trace in physical realities.

Again, it is not Satan who tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. They are people who are against your Church.

Your group really misunderstood Prophet Muhammad (By the way, I will tell you in advance although I am not yet ready to discuss things about the Holy Qu’ran, that Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet of God. He is a Christian too like Apostle Paul). Let us discuss it later.

Now why me?


It is written, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Therefore, only God can answer your question because everything and every reason I will make will just become lips service since He alone has the reason in choosing among us.

Maybe I acted in ignorance in trying to reach the unreachable wisdom of God. Maybe, I give my best in trying to understand their testimony although I cannot make it. Maybe, I put myself in other’s self as if I am not myself in dealing with me. Maybe, I learn to judge myself with all honesty. Maybe, I tried my best to be good although I am not good. Maybe, I angered him when I said ‘it is better for you to take me now since I cannot know you’. Maybe, I am poor and feeling useless. Maybe, because I am not a priest. Maybe, I am lonely and full of problems although my problem is me. Maybe, I am asking everything although I should not ask anything. Maybe, when I say ‘Father, forgive me because I am not your son’. Maybe, I am crying but I should be happy. All reasons I can think are all maybe’s because He alone can answer your question.

Now, I know how you can you see Him. Just follow the instructions of our dear Apostle Paul and He will come because the two men dressed in white said

[indent=1]"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.[/indent]

This is just a story but this coming means for all eternity. He comes just once but seen by many at different times and in different generations of humanity and those who saw him first will see him last.

Now, if you do not believe me. What can I do?
Anyway, Mark thank you for your previous post.

Edited October 15, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

Quoting reyb in all instances

[b]reyb - I said I am not Gnostic like Marcion because I do not know Marcion or I never read any of his letters. I am not aware too if Gnostics are intentionally hiding any particular knowledge or not though it can be shared thus, I do not belong to them since I am not hiding anything from you.[/b]

Barb - I am not expert, reyb - far from that. However, from what you state above, your knowledge sounds like what we call "gnostic knowledge" in that it is some sort of secret individual knowledge revealed to a person (to you in this instance) and contradicting what we believe or what The Catholic Church teaches. You seem to be one person only (altho I have my doubts) and we are billions all in all. - what I mean is that when I state what "we" believe I can confidently state that there are billions who believe the same thing as I and probaly most on Phatmass Phorum as well, being a Catholic discussion site. We are united and one in what we hold as doctrine and dogma, Faith and Morals. I think it is billions, as I said, no expert and an 'armchair' everything. What 'armchair' means is that I have no expert knowledge in any area at all. Ah well, if we are not billions this year, we certainly are millions.

[b]But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling us that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.[/b]

I do [u][b]suspect [/b][/u]however, that you are not just one person - that you belong to a group of people. I chat now and then with some people in my area which has many migrants.


[b]The one I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’ is your Jesus in Catholics’ salvation history. I hope it is very clear now. You can see how easy to share your Jesus from one man to another. Just two of you come together, one is sharing the other is listening and at once, if both is willing it can be shared easily. You see how easily we can understand each other regarding this Jesus we are now talking about.[/b]

Wow reyb! Nothing at all is clear. You might claim that you know why it is not clear to us, this is not necessarily so. Only your word for it.
You are coming into this thread and stating what you state and asking us to believe it with no other authority but your own interpretation which contradicts the Catholic interpretation! In other words, you are doing what you accuse us of doing


[b]But I am telling in this forum many times that there is another Jesus which is still hidden from you and that is the Jesus Apostle Paul is truly saying and not your historical Jesus. You said I need to tell you who is that ‘other Jesus’ and just like I said before. Your request is not possible because only God can reveal him. I am not lying to you. It cannot be shared by anyone even if a true witness is willing. Thus, this whole ‘sharing thing’ is termed by Apostle Paul, ‘foolishness of God’ in 1 Cor 1:25. A willing witness who cannot share what he saw and a willing listener who cannot understand what he is sharing and a God who says proclaim it because I want all of you to be saved. To make it clearer to you, even all of us come together – all of us in heaven and on earth come together as one in sharing and listening to each other. We cannot reveal Him because only God can do it. That is how, ‘How foolish it is’. Thus Apostle Paul said (1 Cor 1:25) ‘For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom,[/b]

Again, you can present no other authority but your own for your interpretation stating that it is a private revelation to you from God (altho I suspect you are not alone). And your private revelation is in contradiction to our Catholic beliefs.
It is no use, I fear, me quoting from Scripture - in fact no use at all - and presenting our understanding to contradict your own. Because you keep on giving your interpretation with no other authority but your own private? interpretation - and in contradiction to what The Church teaches us is the actual and rightful interpretation. We have expert Scripture Scholars and theologians who advise our Magisterium, while the Holy Father has the final say or casting vote. As I said, this thread is merely a circle. Round and round and round and then let's go around again!
How can you say that God has not spoken to any of us? You do not know, neither do I insofar as us posters on Pham are concerned. If, for example,The Lord had spoken to any Catholic, then if what The Lord stated was in contradiction to our doctrine and dogma, our Faith and our Morals, then we can be assured that it wasn't The Lord who was speaking and we are very confident of that. And Jesus Christ is Lord, truly human, truly Divine, and to the Glory of God The Father through The Holy Spirit. Three Persons One God.

[b]But I see a way how can I come into your heart. I will share my love to you by showing you your fault. I know you will get mad at me. But still, I will share my Lord to you. [/b]

Woops, your knowledge has let you down again since I am not mad and neverhave been for the course of this thread. Not at all mad, reyb, nor angry nor the slightest disturbed. Rather frankly, I am laughing - while it all strikes me on another level as quite sad nonethless. Altho loving will bring you right into my heart as I love you, reyb, unconditionally. We are just having problems understanding each other because your beliefs are contradicting my own and you have no other authority for what you say but yourself and your own interpretation of The Bible.

God bless us all and keep us always in His Love. - Loving Him and our neighbour for His Sake and treating others with love, care and concern for their wellbeing - and despite all things. Amen. After all, Scripture tells us, as does our common sense, that He sends His rain and his sunshine on good and not good alike, and without discrimination.

[reyb]

BarbaraTherese,


I said the word ‘us’ because I am not alone in having the Spirit of Christ and so, it is not proper to use the word ‘me’ and besides there are other people who may think the same thing like mine – i.e. questioning whether the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul is hidden in Catholics or not. Since you are questioning that word ‘us’ or suspecting I am today are with ‘others’ as we are a group of people trying to hide something and planning unpleasant things against Catholics. I will change it.

Okay.

But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling[i] me[/i] that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

Now, my question is this. Is that ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is still hidden from Catholics or not.?

Edited October 15, 2012 by reyb

[BarbTherese]

Quoting reyb in all instances:

[b]This is the problem for many Catholics. You are not reading the scripture carefully and scrutinize you belief based on truth and reality. You do not learn how to judge yourself properly and treat other people like yourself. All of us are just ‘believers’. Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group. Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.[/b]

Huh huh! unless I misunderstand you........ "all of us" so you are not alone in your beliefs, if I have read you right. So this special type 'knowledge' is shared with others?
I think it very harsh and judgemental to state that others are being treated as satanic because they are against Catholicism. If a Catholic is so doing simply because they hold contrary beliefs to Catholic beliefs, then they are acting quite wrongfully and contrary to what The Church teaches us. Also, Jesus has told us "love your enemies and do goot to those that persecute you". Persecution can take many forms major and minor. Mmmm, interesting - what does this mean "otherwise, you are satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group"?
Also, reyb, again it is only on your own personal authority that you think that we are not reading Scripture carefully - and simply because we cannot accept what you state on your own authority only.

[b]In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’. It is your early fathers who said it and not God. It is not even Apostle Paul who tells them about this coming of historical Jesus otherwise he will never mention another Jesus in his letter. It is not even synoptic Gospel writer like Luke who tell them about historical Jesus since he already said in the beginning of his letter that it is just a 'narration' or a 'story' to ponder and not a 'historical event' which you will just accept to be true without seeing its trace in physical realities.[/b]

More of your interpretation, reyb. It contradicts what The Catholic Church teaches us and therefore I cannot believe it one little bit, not at all one little bit. What is more, it is quite offensive to me to state what you have above. Quite offensive. In this free democratic country, Australia (I am in South Australia), we hold that we should respect all beliefs, providing those beliefs etc. are not hurtful to themselves.....nor to others. Not only this, it is against forum rules - and I have already posted the forum rules link in a previous post.

[b]Again, it is not Satan who tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. They are people who are against your [/b][b]Your group really misunderstood Prophet Muhammad (By the way, I will tell you in advance although I am not yet ready to discuss things about the Holy Qu’ran, that Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet of God. He is a Christian too like Apostle Paul). Let us discuss it later.[/b]

Well, I certainly have great respect for those of the Islaamic faith expression and for their beliefs, although there are branches that claim Islaamic profession that give me real problems indeed. But then probably all faith expressions have their various extreme branches some of which can hold very strange beliefs etc.

[b]Now why me?


It is written, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Therefore, only God can answer your question because everything and every reason I will make will just become lips service since He alone has the reason in choosing among us.[/b]

I can agree on that. Can I take it that this is the reason you are proposing as the reason Jesus was crucified? Because God indeed will have Mercy on whomsoever He Wills and Compassion on whomsoever He has Compassion. I can accept that for sure - and not in those words, it has been stated previously in this thread, although it is of course a general reason why Jesus was crucified, but not the particular reason. But to date, you have accepted no reasons put forward, other than your own which you are yet to share with us.

[b]Maybe I acted in ignorance in trying to reach the unreachable wisdom of God. Maybe, I give my best in trying to understand their testimony although I cannot make it. Maybe, I put myself in other’s self as if I am not myself in dealing with me. Maybe, I learn to judge myself with all honesty. Maybe, I tried my best to be good although I am not good. Maybe, I angered him when I said ‘it is better for you to take me now since I cannot know you’. Maybe, I am poor and feeling useless. Maybe, because I am not a priest. Maybe, I am lonely and full of problems although my problem is me. Maybe, I am asking everything although I should not ask anything. Maybe, when I say ‘Father, forgive me because I am not your son’. Maybe, I am crying but I should be happy. All reasons I can think are all maybe’s because He alone can answer your question. [/b]

You sound very unhappy, reyb, very. If you are in some sort of personal suffering then I do hope and pray that it will soon be resolved and you will be in Peace and Joy - and happy. I will be keeping you in prayer. Please keep me and all in your own.

[b]Now, I know how you can you see Him. Just follow the instructions of our dear Apostle Paul and He will come because the two men dressed in white said[/b]

[indent=1][b]"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.[/b][/indent]

[b]This is just a story but this coming means for all eternity. He comes just once but seen by many at different times and in different generations of humanity and those who saw him first will see him last.

Now, if you do not believe me. What can I do?
Anyway, Mark thank you for your previous post.[/b]

Apologies, Mark for butting in on a post to you.
AS I said in another post, reyb. I do not doubt you are absolutely sincere about what you believe, hence I do not doubt your personal integrity re those beliefs. I personally cannot hold to your beliefs because they are contrary to what The Catholic Church teaches and with God's Grace, I hope very much to live and to die a faithful member of The Catholic Church.

I must go again. Busy week with interstate visitors overnight next weekend.

God bless us all, please. Ava good day or night wherever you are in our world. Amen.

[BarbTherese]

Apologies. I have many problems posting on Phatmass for some reason, the least of which is my very slow computer.

What I wanted to add to my previous post is this:

[size=5]Also, early pagan historians, did mention Jesus. Hence He is certainly historical - a man (who is also God) who lived and breathed and walked and talked on our earth some 2000 odd years ago. You will find a list of them here [url="http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Historical%20evidence%20on%20the%20exhistance%20of%20Jesus.htm"][color="#0f72da"]http://www.agapebibl...ce of Jesus.htm[/color][/url][/size]
[size=5]Jesus died by crucifixion and three days later He rose from the dead as he had prophesied. [/size]

Edited October 15, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350297848' post='2493599']
BarbaraTherese,


I said the word ‘us’ because I am not alone in having the Spirit of Christ and so, it is not proper to use the word ‘me’ and besides there are other people who may think the same thing like mine – i.e. questioning whether the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul is hidden in Catholics or not. Since you are questioning that word ‘us’ or suspecting I am today are with ‘others’ as we are a group of people trying to hide something and planning unpleasant things against Catholics. I will change it.

Okay.

But let me clarify things because it seems you are telling[i] me[/i] that the ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is not hidden to Catholics. Actually, if it is true then you cannot see me writing like this since we have nothing to talk about. I know you believed in your traditions that Apostle Paul belongs to your group and worshipping God thru that same Jesus Christ which now I called ‘historical Jesus Christ’. But I want to tell you why I do not agree.

Now, my question is this. Is that ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor 2:6-7 is still hidden from Catholics or not.?
[/quote]

My very real apologies, reyb. More questions! I simply find your concepts, most all of them, unbelievable presented as they are on your authority only. Other than this, on matters of doctrine and dogma, Faith and Morals, I accept no other authority but that of The Catholic Church. And with The Lord's help I hope to do so for the rest of days until death. Amen.
Posting has taken up much time, mine and I am sure yours as well. I am afraid I just dont have the time available to read, think and post, any more. I have a busy week ahead of me and then interstate visitors for the weekend next weekend. I must get into my pots and pans, dig out recipes, plan shopping, then effect shopping, ensure linen and the house generally is spic and span. Inbetween this, I work part time for a charity and have other commitments including prayer times during the day when I am at home.

I can hardly believe that I sat down at this computer at 8.30pm and that it is now 10.14pm!!!!

God bless, reyb - I wish you well and God's richest blessings in every way and will be keeping you in daily prayer. Please keep me in your prayers.

Au revoir!.............Barb, South Aussie

[reyb]

BarbaraTherese,

I really find it amusing to discuss with a woman maybe because I know that woman is designed by God not to preach but only to listen and therefore, even there is error in her belief I was weaken by her love and sincerity. But women nowadays are use not only to listen but also to preach and I am now just thinking, is it possible to consider them as a man rather than a woman?

You yourself admit Catholics are now running in billions and that is true. It is simply mean you must take note of what you are preaching since you are now bringing billions of soul in front of the judgment seat of God without giving them hope to see the light. How do I know that? As we go along our discussion I will show it to you.

Yes, I am alone today and I am aware of it but I have with me their confirmation – the letters of witnesses who are before me and that is my strength why I am too eager to be heard. You said I have no authority whatsoever. So, from whom such authority must from - from your Church or from God?

If your Church's authority truly comes from God then, is that ‘secret wisdom’ mentioned by Apostle Paul no longer hidden to Catholics? I am not yet asking what is that ‘secret wisdom’. I am just asking if that secret is known to Catholics or not. This is the reason why I said, let me clarify things since it seems Catholics is claiming having it but still I am accused of being a Gnostic. If I am a Gnostic you must bring Apostle Paul with me since he too knows that ‘secret ’. Then, all of us (excluding you of course) are Gnostics. If I have a secret it is beyond my control to reveal it. Only the Spirit of God can do it. Thus, I said I am not hiding anything.

You are very loving but very suspicious. If your love is true then trust me as I trust you. Thank you in praying for me but, I will wait for your answer because you must clarify it. Again, Is this 'secret wisdom' Apostle Paul is saying no longer hidden to Catholic Church?

Edited October 15, 2012 by reyb

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350265584' post='2493489']
This is the problem for many Catholics. You are not reading the scripture carefully and scrutinize you belief based on truth and reality. You do not learn how to judge yourself properly and treat other people like yourself. All of us are just ‘believers’. [b]Do not treat others as Satan just because they are against your group.[/b] Otherwise, you are Satan too in their eyes since you do not belong to their group.
[/quote]

You have mistaken or changed what I wrote. I have never accused [b]you[/b] as serving satan for your beliefs. I am saying that satan waits for the unwary to lead you away. The ones I accuse of serving satan are the ones that make [u]malicious attacks[/u] on the Church for the purpose of hurt and deterrence of other people. If you had been paying attention you would notice that I do not condemn other non Catholics, particularly main stream religions.


[quote]
In your post, it is not God who teach you and propagate the story of Jesus. I will say it again because I want you to understand me better. It is not God himself who tells you that ‘the historical realization of the coming of Christ more or less 2000 years ago is authentic and true’.


[/quote]
[b]No! you are wrong.[/b] Very wrong! What tells me Jesus is true is written in my signature
[color=#800080][i]My messages are always your [u]highest thought, your clearest word, your grandest feeling[/u]. [b]Anything less is from another source![/b][/i] God[/color]
The story of Jesus and his teachings are my highest thought, my clearest words and my[b] GRANDEST FEELINGS![/b]
Only God is good. All goodness comes from God. In my heart I hear God say this pure good doctrine of Jesus is truth! You say "Imagination that I hear God??" God says "Would that make a difference?" God made me in his image he created me! Therefore my good thoughts [u]are his[/u]. My bad thoughts are[u] my wrong choices. [/u]So God can just as easily communicate to me through my imagination as any other method.

[quote]

It is your early fathers who said it and not God. It is not even Apostle Paul who tells them about this coming of historical Jesus otherwise he will never mention another Jesus in his letter. It is not even synoptic Gospel writer like Luke who tell them about historical Jesus since he already said in the beginning of his letter that it is just a 'narration' or a 'story' to ponder and not a 'historical event' which you will just accept to be true without seeing its trace in physical realities.
[/quote]
Apostle Paul was born 5AD if I got my facts right. So he was no more a witness to Jesus than anyone. He believed and converted because he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to propagate the doctrine of Jesus. Because like many he could see that Jesus doctrine could have only come from God. No mere prophet could teach such profound wisdom in such a fallen evil and violent world. Apostle Paul spread the good news as he heard it from the witnesses of the historical Jesus. How can have so much faith in St. Paul and yet not see that???

[quote]Again, it is not Satan who tells you that the Roman Catholic Church is evil. They are people who are against your Church. [/quote]
Only God is good! Evil comes from satan. The people who say evil against the Church serve satan. Humans do not create good or evil they choose to follow one or the other.


[quote]Your group really misunderstood Prophet Muhammad (By the way, I will tell you in advance although I am not yet ready to discuss things about the Holy Qu’ran, that Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet of God. He is a Christian too like Apostle Paul). Let us discuss it later.[/quote]
Lets discuss this now because I'm sure my answer will come as a shock. [b]There is possibly some truth in what you say.[/b]
Okay,[u] my take! no qualification to write this. [/u]
The people of Muhammad were nomadic barbaric people who worshiped false gods, they were polytheists. Moh brought Islam to the one true God of Abraham and the Abrahamic teachings. This was good because it was a move in the right direction. Only God is good, therefore i believe there is every possibility that Moh was inspired by God and was a prophet! However Moh was just a man, unlike Jesus who was God incarnate (perfect man) Moh was fallen and because his peoples traditions believed in the subjugation of women and polygamy! And the violent oppression of any who opposed. Moh fell to the lies of satan and excised the doctrine of Jesus Christ from the faith simply because it did not suit what he desired. He may have very well have also fallen to sexual temptation, but then if there is truth in a doco. I recently watched both St Paul and St. Augustine struggled with their sexual desires and thoughts. Artists depicted the serpent as a woman being the greatest tempter to sin. The removal of Jesus from the faith brought it to the level of error of Judaism, but still with enough truth to survive. But like that stone that is thrown into the air and falls back, truth, what is written in the heart prevails. Many modern Muslims reject that subjugation of women (especially the liberated women) They also reject the violence and terror done by extremists. They find that as embarrassing and hurtful as we find hurtful the news of paedophilia and attempts to cover it. Unbeknown to them the have moved toward the doctrine of Jesus Christ. That is why the Catholic Church accepts them as our beloved brothers and sisters.



[quote]Now why me?


It is written, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Therefore, only God can answer your question because everything and every reason I will make will just become lips service since He alone has the reason in choosing among us.[/quote]
I don't need to hear you. I can receive real truth from truth through the tool that God himself made to teach. The Church and it's faithful followers, my friends at PM.

[quote]Maybe I acted in ignorance in trying to reach the unreachable wisdom of God. Maybe, I give my best in trying to understand their testimony although I cannot make it. Maybe, I put myself in other’s self as if I am not myself in dealing with me. Maybe, I learn to judge myself with all honesty. Maybe, I tried my best to be good although I am not good. Maybe, I angered him when I said ‘it is better for you to take me now since I cannot know you’. Maybe, I am poor and feeling useless. Maybe, because I am not a priest. Maybe, I am lonely and full of problems although my problem is me. Maybe, I am asking everything although I should not ask anything. Maybe, when I say ‘Father, forgive me because I am not your son’. Maybe, I am crying but I should be happy. All reasons I can think are all maybe’s because He alone can answer your question. [/quote]
I do not not judge you Rey. If you were to die today I believe that there is every possibility that you will attain Paradise. I see sincerity and genuine honesty in you. I prefer to see that rather than any defect.



[quote]Now, if you do not believe me. What can I do?
Anyway, Mark thank you for your previous post.[/quote]
You're welcome! I hope this post is of some use to you and others.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='reyb' timestamp='1350306281' post='2493615']
BarbaraTherese,

I really find it amusing to discuss with a woman maybe because I know that woman is designed by God not to preach but only to listen and therefore, even there is error in her belief I was weaken by her love and sincerity.
[/quote]
Very wrong! In the eyes of God there is no subjugation of woman. God made man and woman as two which become one. Many of the female posters here are more qualified and make better prophets than many of the men. Personally as I have indicated I have been awed at BTs responses. You and I both would maybe do better to listen to her than our own interpretations.

[BarbTherese]

God love you, reyb - as He does, I just cannot take you seriously any more. Far too 'over the top' for moi! Dont be disturbed, I tis only the merest of females.
"Gnostic" is not an accusation by Catholics in general and certainly not The Catholic Church directed by these to you personally. It is merely a word I used to describe how I view your personal revelation and understandings in that it is a personal revelation to you contradicting what The Catholic Church teaches. Dont get tied up in knots about it, after all I am only a mere woman. Oh I know a joke about that! God created man and then He created woman and man has known nothing but woe ever since.
The interesting thing to me about Adam and Eve is that the serpent, satan, and the most intelligent of all the angels it seems decided to tempt Eve. Methinks it's superior intelligence thought that it would take great intelligene to get to a woman, while it would only take a woman to get to a man. And the jolly thing was absolutely right! It's a joke, fellas! Though single and celibate and privately vowed, I still have an admiring eye for the male of the species and often his intelligence too, far far superior to mine for sure. I sometimes say to The Lord "Dear Lord, I take off my hat to You because that sure is one fine example of your creative powers!" I have a few guys whose company I really appreciate. True most of them (not all) are celibate and vowed themselves, and the best of friends and jolly good company over a cuppa and bikkies - that is, biscuits........not the guys that ride round on motor bikes ").

This did catch my eye, reyb and I had to laugh : "[b]is it possible to consider them as a man rather than a woman[/b]"-

We have three words in Australia that say the same thing, though I wont repeat them. I came to the defence one day of a disabled woman who was being verbally abused from some of those guys that do ride round on motor bikes. One of them looked straight at me (the others looked dumb struck rather) and said "Lady, you have........"
I wasn't too sure what he meant, so later I asked a friend of mine:
"Was he complimenting me or insulting me"
"A bit of both, I think, Barb"

I have been wondering/suspicious (what after all IS in a name?) about you for quite some time, reby. I have been reading your posts in this and other threads without posting myself and wondered where your concepts (when I could work out what you were on about) were all coming from. Simply yourself, or did you belong to a certain faith profession/religion. Don't get tied up in knots about it, merely female curiosity going for a walk.

Thank you and sincerely for the compliment, Mark. How about writing to my psychiatrist for me? (joke!)

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Duplicate .........again!

Edited October 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese