Breviary Revision At Bishops' Meeting

[Lil Red]

http://catholicexchange.com/breviary-revision-at-bishops-meeting/

What follows is from my hastily typed notes with my own reactions in bold. Here we go:
Archbishop Aymond opened by saying that ever since the new missal translation was implemented last year, there were frequent inquiries and requests for a revised translation of the breviary. As a result, the committee requested Rome for permission to pursue a “more up to date” edition of the breviary,and one that would be more in harmony with the Latin edition ([i]editio typica)[/i]. [b][Yay! We did it! Kudos to everyone who ever wrote the USCCB or their own bishops about this. I had heard earlier that a new breviary was on the back burner, behind new translations of rituals for sacraments. Now it's on the front burner!][/b]

Next, Archbishop Aymond mentioned several proposed modifications that were in mind. And the bishops who asked questions based on the handout’s they’d received indicated that there were several more:

1. The Revised Grail Psalms would be the new psalter.[b][We already knew this but now it's official.][/b]

2. The translation for the Benedictus and the Magnificat would remain the same because of long familiarity.[b][this makes some sense because people have them memorized.][/b]

3.The Te Deum would be re-translated.

4.The Holy See said not to attempt re-translating the Office of Readings second readings, in the interest of not making the project drag on for years. [b][Amen!][/b]

5.Hymns will be English translations of the official Latin breviary hymns! [b][Yay! Morning Has Broken shall decrease, Creator Alme Siderum will increase!!!][/b]

6. Psalm prayers will be eliminated to make the text match the Latin edition.[b][look for lively discussion of this one tomorrow. [/b][b]Bishop Fiorenza expressed dismay in the question period.][/b]

7.The doxology (Glory Be) is still under discussion as to whether it should be the traditional (world without end.Amen) version, or something else. Archbishop Aymond acknowledged that discussion in the committee on this point was lively. In the clarification questions that followed from the floor, Cardinal O’Malley said he was pleased that the Glory Be was being reconsidered. He pleaded for the traditional version, saying that the only uniform prayers catholics had left at the moment were the Our Father and the Sign of the Cross–that even the Hail Mary had it’s “thee vs. you” versions. [b][Right on, Cardinal Sean!][/b]

Other clarifiying questions included a worthwhile request from Bishop Trautman that antiphons be changed to match the Grail Psalms.[b] [A very sensible idea--to take the antiphons away from ICEL and give them to Conception Abbey to harmonize them with the psalms.][/b]

When asked by Bishop Sheehan for a timeline on the whole process from new translations to approval from Rome to publication, Archbishop Aymond said three to five years. [b][Given how long it took to get the mass re-translated and implemented, I think 5 years is lovely, and if it were 3 I'd be delirious with joy][/b]

Remember, gentle fan of the Divine Office, none of the above is in concrete. The actual debate on it all will take place tomorrow. I have no idea where on the schedule this is, but keep tuning into EWTN and maybe you will catch it.

[Nihil Obstat]

What, they are not going to encourage priests to switch back to the traditional form of the Office?
Step in the right direction though, as has been the norm lately.

[cmaD2006]

... and I just brought my LOTH (christian prayer). . Well at least they'll take a while to change.

BTW -- there are two versions in Spanish, I wonder if they will finally come down to one single version (instead of one Spain-spanish and one Mexican/Latin American Spanish).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1352765350' post='2508784']
BTW -- there are two versions in Spanish, I wonder if they will finally come down to one single version (instead of one Spain-spanish and one Mexican/Latin American Spanish).
[/quote]
We would not have this problem if everyone switched to Latin.
Actually, we would not have these translation issues at all. Seems more and more desirable every day, eh?

[arfink]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352765469' post='2508786']
We would not have this problem if everyone switched to Latin.
Actually, we would not have these translation issues at all. Seems more and more desirable every day, eh?
[/quote]

I like English.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1352765778' post='2508790']

I like English.
[/quote]
I have nothing [i]against[/i] English, but when it comes to churchy stuff I think there is a lot more to be said for Latin.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1352765778' post='2508790']

I like English.
[/quote]

i like when I can understand and read in my native language.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1352765350' post='2508784']
... and I just brought my LOTH (christian prayer). . Well at least they'll take a while to change.

BTW -- there are two versions in Spanish, I wonder if they will finally come down to one single version (instead of one Spain-spanish and one Mexican/Latin American Spanish).
[/quote]They have to get the Mass set first. I used to work at a church where a different translation was used each week,depending on the priest. I know a standard missal is supposed to be in the works, but I don't know the status.

[AnneLine]

As someone who trains lay people to USE the LOTH on a regular basis... definitely, I hope they don't REQUIRE Latin from everyone.

We want MORE people praying it on a regular basis. Some of us may be ready & able to use the Latin, but it will be a disaster for most laity. (I used it in Latin back in the 1960's and 1970's... and yeah, I could mouth the words, and yeah, I more-or-less understood what the words meant, but not much beyond that... so it was NOT help for me as a prayer resource.)

I'm currently working with a 78 year old lady who is making a VALIENT attempt to learn how to use it in English... it would be a deal breaker to have her try it in Latin. And I don't think I'd get too much further with most of my Seculars... they are too busy... they have busy lives... they are already stuck with a TON of formation reading.... this would be the final straw. We'll do what we are ordered to do.. but.... seriously....

We'd find almost everyone who is required to say it requesting and receiving permission to use the Little Office of the BVM...
which is fine... except they lose soooooo much of the integration of the psalms and readings with the Church year.

I'm all for having the Latin available for people to use, but come on....

Edited November 13, 2012 by AnneLine

[arfink]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352766198' post='2508793']
I have nothing [i]against[/i] English, but when it comes to churchy stuff I think there is a lot more to be said for Latin.
[/quote]

Oh, Latin is nice, it has all the glowing funsies of being old and cool and inspiring a kind of awe. BUT, if you think the liturgists are bad now, wait until you hear them butcher your favorite prayer by mispronouncing the Latin. Or when they do an introit chant completely wrong, not even following the correct word order, because the Latin is impossible for them to understand and they just get it all wrong. Or when you have an entire church full of people staring even more blankly and silently than usual as the Our Father is chanted in Latin by the priest and maybe 1 or 2 people in the congregation.

It's grand.

[AccountDeleted]

I prayed the Office in Latin when I was with the Benedictines and in English using both the LOTH in America and with the Carmelites using the UK edition and I have to say I prefer the English, but then I also prefer the UK version, which is the Grail Psalter translation because I love the Psalms there. In the UK edition we don't have the Psalm prayers after each psalm either and I prefer that. As for the Magnificat and the Bendictus, I don't like the ICEL translation - I prefer the UK DO one but that might be because it is the first version I learned, and I know it by heart.

The Benedictines at Colwich try to combine half the Office in English and then starting with the Short Responsory they switch to Latin - didn't like it at all - the hybrid was too confusing, having to change books back and forth was just messy.

I do like a little Latin though, mainly in the Mass for the Sanctus, Agnus Dei and things like that. If we went back to Latin, I would be fine with it, but if we are talking preferences, I like things the way they are (with perhaps a new translation for the US LOTH - I never did like that translation).

I think it's great that they are doing this.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1352766864' post='2508801']
Oh, Latin is nice, it has all the glowing funsies of being old and cool and inspiring a kind of awe. BUT, if you think the liturgists are bad now, wait until you hear them butcher your favorite prayer by mispronouncing the Latin. Or when they do an introit chant completely wrong, not even following the correct word order, because the Latin is impossible for them to understand and they just get it all wrong. Or when you have an entire church full of people staring even more blankly and silently than usual as the Our Father is chanted in Latin by the priest and maybe 1 or 2 people in the congregation.

It's grand.
[/quote]
Certainly it would take a lot of changes. It would be completely insufficient to simply say "Latin all the time, starting now." We have to start with the seminaries and make sure our priests are being thoroughly trained in Latin, as canon law requires.
Then, I think, slowly re-introducing Latin into the Mass Ordinary would be the way to go. It really only takes a few months of continuous exposure before the average person in the pews is familiar with the ordinary. I do not speak Latin in any relevant sense, but after two years of attending the traditional Mass more or less exclusively, I do not need a missal to understand the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, etc.. Languages are definitely not my strong suit, so in this sense I am not at any kind of advantage.
The Propers are another matter. I would not necessarily be against some use of the vernacular for the propers that are intended for the laity, although I think Latin should be encouraged when possible. And when Latin is used, it should be accompanied by pastoral explanation for the laity, as well as readily provided translations.
Also I do not think it is pastorally inappropriate to push for the Canon to be said in a low tone. That would allow it to be said entirely in Latin, while the faithful follow in prayer. It would certainly be a change for most people, but I think over time it would be entirely worthwhile.
Again, it would not be done all at once. It would probably take many decades to get to a point I am imagining. But I think it would be a valuable process and could revitalize our worship traditions.

In terms of the laity saying the Office, it is somewhat less important to me as to what language the laity use. If they can say it in Latin then that is great for them, but I think it is more important to focus on how the clergy pray the Office, given its place in the Church's liturgical tradition.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352767530' post='2508816']

In terms of the laity saying the Office, it is somewhat less important to me as to what language the laity use. If they can say it in Latin then that is great for them, but I think it is more important to focus on how the clergy pray the Office, given its place in the Church's liturgical tradition.
[/quote]

I think one of the reasons it is in the vernacular is so the laity CAN pray the Office. Of course the clergy and religious are required to pray it, but this opens up the official prayer of the Church to the whole church and not JUST the laity or religious.

As for the importance of clergy doing it, parish priests are often so busy that they seem to 'snack' on the Office, grabbing it when and where they can, so they definitely need the support of religious communities praying it as well. Our chaplain in Carmel told me that he often got to the end of the day and felt overwhelmed with tiredness but had to hurriedly rush through Compline before going to bed. I liked to think that we supported him every time we prayed Compline in the choir - making up for whatever focus or enthusiasm he was lacking.

It is important however that we never lose the Latin roots of the liturgy - it is too precious and important to be ignored. And I did love the Latin Mass when I attended it, but I can also see the value of having the liturgy in the vernacular. We need both forms of worship.

[AnneLine]

Nihil,

I think I understand what you are saying, and I respect why you are saying it.

However, please realize that if this gets put in stone that the LOTH must be prayed in Latin, it is in stone for EVERYONE bound to pray it. And Seculars ARE bound to say it. That is why I would prefer that it be ENCOURAGED and that the resources for people to make that option realistic be provided... but it just ISN'T realistic at this time for most laity. Heck, Latin as a language wasn't even offered in high school when I went there... in the 1960's and earlier, it WAS offered. Having some background it the language would make it do-able if a bit problematic (kind of what Nunsense was saying)... but for the typical person who has been public or Catholic schooled in the last 50 years... not so much. Tis a pity, but tis a reality.

I do speak Spanish fairly fluently, and I pray the LOTH in Spanish fairly often... but I realize that I just don't understand every word and I miss the nuances.. .and that is on the psalms and scriptures that I know. I can go through the motions with the Latin, but I'd end up meditating while making noises if truth be told if I were to try to pray the LOTH in Latin.

I really think that it would not be helpful for prayer for most lay persons --and as Nunsense pointed out just above -- for most current parish priests... who don't even have that much exposure to Latin. Again, we'll do what we are told to do... but what is the purpose of praying the LOTH.... It is that it is the official prayer -- the Liturgy -- of the Church yes... but it also is intended to be a starting point for personal prayer and contemplation... that what is prayed runs through a person's soul during the day. It just won't happen for the vast majority of people.... sad, but true.

BUT, we'll see what God has in store for us!

[Basilisa Marie]

YAYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as Latin goes, I think it's important, but it's more important that people learn all the prayers in their native language. My home parish had this competition for the kiddos where they'd get points for learning some of the common prayers in latin (pater noster, ave maria, etc), and when they did, they'd get a cool "Prayer Warrior" T shirt.

I love Latin most when I know what I'm saying.