Breviary Revision At Bishops' Meeting

[AnneLine]

Yeah. I remember when they first brought in the Interim Breviary (those of you who hate the current one REALLY would have hated that one! Imagine a totally different version of the Our Father!)

LOTH in present form isn't perfect, and I would love to chuck some of the current hymns (euch!)... but I hope they don't make TOO many adjustments to it. I don't care for the psalm prayers personally, but I know others who have found them an entry into appreciating the psalms....

I think Divineoffice.org is a real blessing and a real apostolate, CMom! Almost every one of our Seculars who selects Christian Prayer eventually switches to the full LOTH because they want the Readings. (If you ever really do want to get rid of your Christian Prayer, I know someone who would benefit... just PM me...)

I also suggest to people who are having trouble getting into doing it regularly to find a friend to pray with. Phone works really well.... and while it isn't the same as a full community, it is a blessing to be a bit of the Church praying. I'm going to be praying Office of Readings and Evening Prayer with a friend in a few moments, and we will pray for all who are on PhatMass, and especially on this thread, in a special way.

Blessings!

Edited November 13, 2012 by AnneLine

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352785730' post='2509038']
Yeah. I remember when they first brought in the Interim Breviary (those of you who hate the current one REALLY would have hated that one! Imagine a totally different version of the Our Father!)

LOTH in present form isn't perfect, and I would love to chuck some of the current hymns (euch!)... but I hope they don't make TOO many adjustments to it. I don't care for the psalm prayers personally, but I know others who have found them an entry into appreciating the psalms....

I think Divineoffice.org is a real blessing and a real apostolate, CMom! Almost every one of our Seculars who selects Christian Prayer eventually switches to the full LOTH because they want the Readings. (If you ever really do want to get rid of your Christian Prayer, I know someone who would benefit... just PM me...)

I also suggest to people who are having trouble getting into doing it regularly to find a friend to pray with. Phone works really well.... and while it isn't the same as a full community, it is a blessing to be a bit of the Church praying. I'm going to be praying Office of Readings and Evening Prayer with a friend in a few moments, and we will pray for all who are on PhatMass, and especially on this thread, in a special way.

Blessings!
[/quote]
I am afraid no one could use my Christian Prayer except me. In the first section where the instructions are, and both covers I have about 50 years worth of prayer cards attached, and in daily Saint section I have all the death dates, anniversaries, ordination dates written in for family, friends, and parishioners so everyone gets remembered once every year.

[AnneLine]

i WOULD PROP YOU BUT I AM OUT!!!

[Nihil Obstat]

Double post. I am having some computer issues today that are really starting to get on my nerves.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

If you do not mind, I will add my comments in blue in order to keep things clear.

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352775571' post='2508913']

Nihil, I do understand what you are saying, and I can empathize with your concerns about Latin having been dissed in recent decades. Ideally the Latin should be in every seminary. And it would be great if it came back for all of us in school too... (that's why I was a World and Comparative Lit major rather than a Classics major... no languages, and no way to acqurire them at my school....)

However, Church regs can get imbedded in stone, and if you REQUIRE the Latin for priests and deacons, it probably would be REQUIRED for everyone.... and then we would go down a path that probably wouldn't be as helpful for the vast majority... and they just wouldn't pray it.

[color=#0000CD]Well we are speaking on two separate levels here, I think. One, we are talking about the clergy, the Mass, and the Office, and then two we are talking about the laity.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]For the clergy, Latin absolutely is required by law. That law is not being followed. That is not me projecting the way I want things to be; that is written into canon law. I can pull out the references if you need me to, but it should not be difficult to find.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]Anyway, my arguments apply primarily to the clergy and religious, whose job it is to maintain our traditions as faithfully as possible.[/color]
[color="#0000cd"]The laity is a rather different entity, as far as I am concerned. If lay people do not know Latin and want to pray the Office in the vernacular, I am not about to disagree. Learning the Latin would be praiseworthy, but the realities of lay life tend to dictate otherwise.[/color]
[color="#0000cd"]In my 'ideal' scenario, I think perhaps the Latin forms would be required for clergy, with specific exceptions for specific circumstances. I went over some of those in one of my previous posts. Perhaps 'highly recommended' for non-clerical religious. Perhaps 'praiseworthy' for laity? I do not see why that would be all that strange canonically.[/color]

I just feel really strongly that [b]there needs to be some place somewhere between 'encouraged' and 'required' [/b]-- because souls of good will will try to do what is being asked without being placed in a 'required' noose. My opinion... others may differ.

[color=#0000CD]Right, and I think this is what I am describing. Required in many circumstances, recommended and/or encouraged in some. There are always pastoral reasons for vernacular use. The evangelization of the Americas, for instance. I believe vernacular liturgies were permitted in Native American missions. Such pastoral provisions are nothing new, and there is always a place for them. But the de facto loss of Latin in the average Catholic's day to day life is absolutely a betrayal of our liturgical heritage, and we should make it a priority. Clearly the Holy Father thinks it is a priority.[/color]

On this point, I've always liked what the Carmelite Rule of St. Albert has for its last line: "[24] Here then are the few points I have written down to provide you with a standard of conduct to live up to; but our Lord, at his second coming will reward anyone who does more than he is obliged to do. See that the bounds of common sense are not exceeded, however, for common sense is the guide of the virtues. "

I personally think that common sense says, use a way that will help you pray better. But that is just me, Guys...

Obviously, for you, Nihil Obstat, that would mean using the Latin, true? [color=#0000CD]It is true that, among the other several changes I have experienced in recent years, the immersion in a 'traditional' atmosphere has done great things for my own practice of the Faith.[/color] And eventually, might mean it for many or even for all... but it would be LONG journey for many, Nihil, don't kid yourself.... and I fear many would get discouraged and not go down that dark road. Ask St. John of the Cross.... ask the 10 out of 10 aspirants who dropped out of our secular order when many (possibly too many) additional things were required.... until we figured out how to encourage them to stretch further than they ever had expected to be asked to go....
[color=#0000CD]Yes, absolutely. We as a Church are facing very dark times, and there are dark times behind us too. I keep saying it, but I am not sure if people realize that I truly believe it- this is a problem that will be decades, perhaps centuries to fix. I think it will start with the seminaries. The tide has begun to turn now, but it is in early stages. The episcopate will follow, when the seminaries get older. We have several excellent examples of good bishops now, but I think there is work yet to be done.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]The laity will be the last to change. It will happen. I do believe that. But I am not sure that I will live to see a time where things have been set right. It is also entirely possible that things change in the meantime, and this whole 'project' that is in my head gets derailed. But I think generally speaking that is the way things will go. Very, very slowly. But steadily.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]It is not a solution, by and large, that can be forced. It will happen organically, and the active steps taken will be small, each on their own indirect and easy to miss, but all together over decades we will begin to see a rich pattern of guidance from the Holy Ghost.[/color]
[/quote]
[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1352775711' post='2508915']

Perhaps I am reading you wrong Nihil, but seems to me like you are saying it should be an exception rather then a rule- that encouraging it wouldn't be enough. Thus there would be some who would be required. Am I wrong in how I am reading what you wrote?
[color=#0000CD]Well, the first step is to follow the law that is already in place. That is that seminaries must be trained in Latin. In some places that is happening, and in others it is not. We are being let down in every case where seminarians are not learning Latin.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]So that is the first step.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]When we have finally realized that first step, then yes, perhaps the law can begin to require the use of Latin. Perhaps, like I said, for at least parts of the Ordinary of the Mass. Perhaps for the Office said in private by the clergy. Perhaps re-introduce the Canon in a low tone, and require it to be in Latin.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]Of course the Latin is always [i]permitted[/i]. That much is obvious. All these things could be done tomorrow. But I think gradually we will see firmer and firmer guidelines that eventually become law. Our heritage of the use of Latin is a great treasure, especially exemplified in the traditional Office and Propers of the Mass, and I dearly hope that our priests as a whole will re-discover it.[/color]

[color=#0000CD]Ultimately I do think that use of the vernacular should be the exception. But as I keep saying, first there will always exist very valid pastoral reasons. Second, we are in this for the long haul. This is a project for many generations and many pontificates. If my 'perfect scenario' were implemented by law tomorrow, we would have de facto schism the day after, even schism de jure. We have seen enough division among Catholics.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]But I do hope that, perhaps one hundred years from now, something resembling what I believe to be a more ideal scenario will exist in the Church. But not only that the situation exists, but that as a Church we understand it and embrace it. It hardly helps us if three quarters of us are griping while the rest celebrate. Griping really gets on my nerves anyway.[/color]

PS- you should know you are my favorite rad trad.
[color=#0000CD]Well thank you. But I do not consider myself a 'radical' traditionalist. Traditionalist is fine for me.[/color]
[color=#0000CD]My most 'radical' opinion (and one that is not truly my own, but which I read in a fair bit of detail from the late Dr. Laszlo Dobszay) is that the traditional propers, including the chants, should be restored as the ordinary form for the Mass and Office, and that the liturgical reform should use it as a starting point rather than the current ordinary form. But this is not really the thread to have that discussion. [/color]
[/quote]
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1352783935' post='2509019']
I thought of you when I read this:

[b]POPE ESTABLISHES PONTIFICAL ACADEMY FOR LATIN[/b]
[/quote]


The Holy Father has his priorities. I am quite content following his very capable lead.
As long as I agree with his choice in shoes though. Otherwise I am out. [/background][/size][/font][/color]