Breviary Revision At Bishops' Meeting

[Nihil Obstat]

I see no reason that the vernacular could not be [i]allowed[/i], given certain circumstances, but clearly even simply encouraging use of Latin is not enough for us to retain it as a liturgical language. Frankly, if we do not take steps now, Latin will completely disappear from regular use in the Church.
So the question is what should we be doing in order to restore it to the place every document from the Council, before the council, and subsequently, assumes it should occupy? The steps I outlined in restoring Latin to the Mass would be a good start, I think. As I said it would take a lot of time, and much better instruction in the seminaries.
Good things take effort.

[the171]

Here we go.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352770808' post='2508860']
I see no reason that the vernacular could not be [i]allowed[/i], given certain circumstances, but clearly even simply encouraging use of Latin is not enough for us to retain it as a liturgical language. Frankly, if we do not take steps now, Latin will completely disappear from regular use in the Church.
So the question is what should we be doing in order to restore it to the place every document from the Council, before the council, and subsequently, assumes it should occupy? The steps I outlined in restoring Latin to the Mass would be a good start, I think. As I said it would take a lot of time, and much better instruction in the seminaries.
Good things take effort.
[/quote]

Dude- it is hard enough for me to pay attention when I praying the LOTH in my native tongue then when trying to pay attention in a language I do not understand. And don't start on the active participation stuff- this is a different kind of prayer from the Mass. It does benefit the person to understand what they are saying. And you are going to be hard pressed to get all of the priests to learn Latin, let alone the religious and secular orders who are obligated to it.

[the171]

This will be a year or two after I enter Carmel. croutons. I'm going to have to get used to this after I get comfortable.

I guess that's a good thing.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1352775011' post='2508907']


Dude- it is hard enough for me to pay attention when I praying the LOTH in my native tongue then when trying to pay attention in a language I do not understand. And don't start on the active participation stuff- this is a different kind of prayer from the Mass. It does benefit the person to understand what they are saying. And you are going to be hard pressed to get all of the priests to learn Latin, let alone the religious and secular orders who are obligated to it.
[/quote]
Did you miss the part about how I see no reason that the vernacular cannot be allowed?
It was important, which is why I put it first.

But it goes without saying that our priests absolutely must learn Latin. We are being let down severely by the lack of enforcement of that Church law.

[the171]

Oh goodness... Here we go.

[AnneLine]

^^^ very funny!

Actually, no I hope we DON'T go there, because I think there is enough room for all of us here. (Maybe I'm wrong?)

Nihil, I do understand what you are saying, and I can empathize with your concerns about Latin having been dissed in recent decades. Ideally the Latin should be in every seminary. And it would be great if it came back for all of us in school too... (that's why I was a World and Comparative Lit major rather than a Classics major... no languages, and no way to acqurire them at my school....)

However, Church regs can get imbedded in stone, and if you REQUIRE the Latin for priests and deacons, it probably would be REQUIRED for everyone.... and then we would go down a path that probably wouldn't be as helpful for the vast majority... and they just wouldn't pray it.

I just feel really strongly that [b]there needs to be some place somewhere between 'encouraged' and 'required' [/b]-- because souls of good will will try to do what is being asked without being placed in a 'required' noose. My opinion... others may differ.

On this point, I've always liked what the Carmelite Rule of St. Albert has for its last line: "[24] Here then are the few points I have written down to provide you with a standard of conduct to live up to; but our Lord, at his second coming will reward anyone who does more than he is obliged to do. See that the bounds of common sense are not exceeded, however, for common sense is the guide of the virtues. "

I personally think that common sense says, use a way that will help you pray better. But that is just me, Guys...

Obviously, for you, Nihil Obstat, that would mean using the Latin, true? And eventually, might mean it for many or even for all... but it would be LONG journey for many, Nihil, don't kid yourself.... and I fear many would get discouraged and not go down that dark road. Ask St. John of the Cross.... ask the 10 out of 10 aspirants who dropped out of our secular order when many (possibly too many) additional things were required.... until we figured out how to encourage them to stretch further than they ever had expected to be asked to go....

The171, don't be too surprised if you get surprised by God. I NEVER would have thought I would hav had to learn -- much less teach! -- half the stuff that is now being required of the Seculars. It's not bad, mind you... but it is A LOT of work I never anticipated. And that I probably wouldn't have signed up to do if I weren't professed. The astonishing thing to me is that people DO come and do stay. But only because we got realistic about how much of a good thing would be REQUIRED. What we found was that if it was ENCOURAGED and the tools were given, people rise to the challenge.

Edited November 13, 2012 by AnneLine

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352770808' post='2508860']
I see no reason that the vernacular could not be [i]allowed[/i], given certain circumstances, but clearly even simply encouraging use of Latin is not enough for us to retain it as a liturgical language. Frankly, if we do not take steps now, Latin will completely disappear from regular use in the Church.
So the question is what should we be doing in order to restore it to the place every document from the Council, before the council, and subsequently, assumes it should occupy? The steps I outlined in restoring Latin to the Mass would be a good start, I think. As I said it would take a lot of time, and much better instruction in the seminaries.
Good things take effort.
[/quote]

Perhaps I am reading you wrong Nihil, but seems to me like you are saying it should be an exception rather then a rule- that encouraging it wouldn't be enough. Thus there would be some who would be required. Am I wrong in how I am reading what you wrote?

PS- you should know you are my favorite rad trad.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352766843' post='2508800']
As someone who trains lay people to USE the LOTH on a regular basis... definitely, I hope they don't REQUIRE Latin from everyone.

We want MORE people praying it on a regular basis. Some of us may be ready & able to use the Latin, but it will be a disaster for most laity. (I used it in Latin back in the 1960's and 1970's... and yeah, I could mouth the words, and yeah, I more-or-less understood what the words meant, but not much beyond that... so it was NOT help for me as a prayer resource.)

I'm currently working with a 78 year old lady who is making a VALIENT attempt to learn how to use it in English... it would be a deal breaker to have her try it in Latin. And I don't think I'd get too much further with most of my Seculars... they are too busy... they have busy lives... they are already stuck with a TON of formation reading.... this would be the final straw. We'll do what we are ordered to do.. but.... seriously....

We'd find almost everyone who is required to say it requesting and receiving permission to use the Little Office of the BVM...
which is fine... except they lose soooooo much of the integration of the psalms and readings with the Church year.

I'm all for having the Latin available for people to use, but come on....
[/quote]

Does the dear lady have a computer or cell phone?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1352766198' post='2508793']
I have nothing [i]against[/i] English, but when it comes to churchy stuff I think there is a lot more to be said for Latin.
[/quote]
I thought of you when I read this:


[b]POPE ESTABLISHES PONTIFICAL ACADEMY FOR LATIN[/b]
Vatican City, 10 November 2012 (VIS) - By the Motu Proprio "Latina lingua" published today, Benedict XVI has established the Pontifical Academy for Latin, which will be part of the Pontifical Council for Culture. The new academy will be directed by a president assisted by a secretary, to be appointed by the Pope, and will comprise an academic council. It will supersede the foundation "Latinitas", established by Paul VI with the Chirograph "Romani Sermonis" of 30 June 1976.
"The Latin language", says the Pope in his Motu Proprio, "has always been held in high regard by the Catholic Church and the Roman pontiffs, who have promoted the knowledge and diffusion of the language by making it their own, able to universally transmit the message of the Gospel, as was authoritatively confirmed by my predecessor Blessed John XXIII in the Apostolic Constitution 'Veterum sapientia'.
"Since the Pentecost the Church has spoken and prayed in all languages known to humanity; however, the Christian communities of the first centuries made extensive use of Greek and Latin, languages of universal communication in the world in which they lived, thanks to which the novelty of the Word of Christ encountered the heritage of Hellenistic-Roman culture. After the fall of the western Roman empire the Church of Rome not only continued to use Latin, but in a certain sense also became its custodian and promoter in the theological and liturgical fields, as well as in education and the transmission of knowledge.
"In our times too, knowledge of Latin language and culture remains as necessary as ever for the study of the sources of numerous ecclesiastical disciplines including, among others, theology, liturgy, Patristics and canon law, as confirmed by Vatican Council II. Furthermore, the 'editio typica' of the liturgical books of the Roman Rite, the most important documents of the pontifical Magisterium and the most solemn Acts of the Roman pontiffs are written in Latin, precisely to emphasise the universal nature of the Church.
"However, in contemporary culture, within the context of a generalised deterioration in humanistic studies, we see the danger of an increasingly superficial knowledge of Latin, which may also be detected in the philosophical and theological studies of future priests. On the other hand, in our world in which science and technology are so prominent, we also find renewed interest in the Latin language and culture, and not only in those continents with Greco-Roman cultural roots. This interest seems particularly significant inasmuch as it is present not only in academic and institutional environments, but also involves young people and scholars from very different nations and traditions.
"There is therefore an apparent pressing need to encourage commitment to a greater knowledge and more competent use of Latin, in the ecclesial environment as well as in the world of culture at large. To give prominence and resonance to this effort, it is important to adopt teaching methods adapted to contemporary conditions, and to promote a network of relationships between academic institutions and among scholars with the aim of promoting the rich and varied heritage of Latin civilisation".
The Holy Father concludes by saying that, "in order to contribute to the achievement of these aims, and following in the wake of my venerated predecessors, with the present Motu Proprio I today establish the Pontifical Academy for Latin".
By this Motu Proprio the Pope approves the statute of the new academy[size=3] "ad experimentum" for a five-year period.[/size]

[Amppax]

I'd love it if when they do the new addition, there was a press that printed it like the Paulist Press did. I really liked how they set it up, much easier for me to pray.

[AnneLine]

[quote name='AnneLine' timestamp='1352766843' post='2508800']

I'm currently working with a 78 year old lady who is making a VALIENT attempt to learn how to use it in English....
[/quote]


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1352782188' post='2509001']
Does the dear lady have a computer or cell phone?
[/quote]

CMom, thanks for asking. No she doesn't, sadly.

The others in the class do, and so obviously, there are things like divineoffice.org and some of the cellphone apps that might have been of help that she can't use.

What we are doing is having one of the others in the class call her regularly and pray over the phone with her. And we are encouraging her to start slow and that we will help her. And... she's starting to get the hang of it.... but she is a wonderful example to all of us that where there is a will there is a way.

But thank you for asking!!!!! <3

Edited November 13, 2012 by AnneLine

[the171]

I pray Christian Prayer, currently.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1352767434' post='2508814']
I prayed the Office in Latin when I was with the Benedictines and in English using both the LOTH in America and with the Carmelites using the UK edition and I have to say I prefer the English, but then I also prefer the UK version, which is the Grail Psalter translation because I love the Psalms there. In the UK edition we don't have the Psalm prayers after each psalm either and I prefer that. As for the Magnificat and the Bendictus, I don't like the ICEL translation - I prefer the UK DO one but that might be because it is the first version I learned, and I know it by heart.

The Benedictines at Colwich try to combine half the Office in English and then starting with the Short Responsory they switch to Latin - didn't like it at all - the hybrid was too confusing, having to change books back and forth was just messy.

I do like a little Latin though, mainly in the Mass for the Sanctus, Agnus Dei and things like that. If we went back to Latin, I would be fine with it, but if we are talking preferences, I like things the way they are (with perhaps a new translation for the US LOTH - I never did like that translation).

I think it's great that they are doing this.
[/quote]

I personally prefer the Grail Psalter version because it reminded me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[cmotherofpirl]

I have the Christian Prayer but I really don't use it now that I have discovered DivineOffice.org. I LOVE the Office of Readings <3, and I am thrilled I have held off buying the 4 volume set. I hope they don't mess up the hymns, I love the old stuff If they really annoy me with a new one I will go back to my original book from the dinosaur days