Freedom Posted November 16, 2012 Posted November 16, 2012 [quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1353038360' post='2511085'] Obviously it's important to wait for marriage, but we don't all come from pious backgrounds, and even some of us who do stray for a time. That being said, I think it depends on a person's expectations. If it's really important for someone to marry a virgin, then by all means, let him/her insist upon a virgin. We are, after all, talking about the most intimate relationship one will have in life. I can understand where Keith Major is coming from. What I would find problematic is a non-virgin insisting upon a virgin. Although, even there, I could understand it. I'd just wonder very seriously about the person's reasons. So far, I think what I've said is obvious. What I really wanted to contribute is this: Having not lived a pious life for most of my life (if you know what I mean), I have learned first-hand the grave disadvantages of NOT waiting for marriage. Just this weekend I was talking to a (non-Catholic) friend who is satisfied with her boyfriend in every way, except for THAT way, because she can't stop comparing him in THAT way to her last boyfriend. When you commit to live your entire life with someone, such comparisons can be terribly problematic. They make it very hard to accept what one has been given in marriage, if it doesn't live up to previous experiences. So, remaining a virgin can, I think, prevent a great deal of dissatisfaction and disappointment in a marriage. I'm wondering if this will be controversial... [/quote] Of course it's controversial and that's exactly what you want, obviously. What you just said is full of contradictions and is confusing to the person you're answering, that is doing the work of the devil. That's why God showed us what's right by making the institution of marriage, the best relation there is between a man and a woman. Sorry, but marriage is not a pair of shoes you try on. You marry someone not just to have sex with, a husband is not a sex companion. A husband is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, come rain or sunshine. If that is too hard for you remain celibate, don't drag a man and potential children into your confusion, it's unfair to him and to the kids. Marriage should be held sacred because the family is sacred and having sex out of wedlock is a sterol and hazardous act that can bring a lot of pain and miseries, the destruction of your peace and of your future.
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted November 16, 2012 Posted November 16, 2012 [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1353109605' post='2511493'] Of course it's controversial and that's exactly what you want, obviously. [b]What you just said is full of contradictions and is confusing to the person you're answering, [u]that is doing the work of the devil[/u].[/b] That's why God showed us what's right by making the institution of marriage, the best relation there is between a man and a woman. Sorry, but marriage is not a pair of shoes you try on. You marry someone not just to have sex with, a husband is not a sex companion. A husband is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, come rain or sunshine. If that is too hard for you remain celibate, don't drag a man and potential children into your confusion, it's unfair to him and to the kids. Marriage should be held sacred because the family is sacred and having sex out of wedlock is a sterol and hazardous act that can bring a lot of pain and miseries, the destruction of your peace and of your future. [/quote] Wow. Way to do God's job of being the just judge. I'm sure he appreciates your help of determining who is doing the work of the devil and who isn't.
Freedom Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1353109909' post='2511494'] Wow. Way to do God's job of being the just judge. I'm sure he appreciates your help of determining who is doing the work of the devil and who isn't. [/quote] Yes.
Maggyie Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 I was a virgin when I got married. My husband was not. It was not a big deal to me. It was a big deal that we were both committed to having a chaste relationship until marriage.
Papist Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 Best gift I could have given my wife was my purity. I failed, which is my biggest regret in life. As far as virginity goes, one can lose his purity long before his virginity.
Gabriela Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1353059292' post='2511182'] What frustrates me about arguments such as this is that in some cases virginity is fairly arbitrary. Someone can be a virgin, but not be living chastely - both in the sense of sexual acts with others and masturbation/pornography. Virginity does not equal chastity. A non-virgin can be living more chastely than a virgin. There is a wider picture, so to speak, that is ignored. [/quote] Excellent point.
Norseman82 Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1353109605' post='2511493'] You marry someone not just to have sex with, a husband is not a sex companion. A husband is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, come rain or sunshine. [/quote] Actually, sex is the difference between living as husband and wife vs. brother and sister, so the sexual aspect should not be discounted. [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1353109605' post='2511493'] Marriage should be held sacred because the family is sacred and having sex out of wedlock is a sterol and hazardous act that can bring a lot of pain and miseries, the destruction of your peace and of your future. [/quote] I think that was the point curiousing was actually trying to get across and was actually giving an example of the pain and misery that premarital sex causes.
PhuturePriest Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1353109605' post='2511493'] Of course it's controversial and that's exactly what you want, obviously. What you just said is full of contradictions and is confusing to the person you're answering, that is doing the work of the devil. That's why God showed us what's right by making the institution of marriage, the best relation there is between a man and a woman. Sorry, but marriage is not a pair of shoes you try on. You marry someone not just to have sex with, a husband is not a sex companion. A husband is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, come rain or sunshine. If that is too hard for you remain celibate, don't drag a man and potential children into your confusion, it's unfair to him and to the kids. Marriage should be held sacred because the family is sacred and having sex out of wedlock is a sterol and hazardous act that can bring a lot of pain and miseries, the destruction of your peace and of your future. [/quote] You strike me as a hippie liberal theology kind of person. Edited November 17, 2012 by FuturePriest387
Norseman82 Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353106013' post='2511462'] If your spouse had sex before he met you, it's not like some girl out there is running around with the magic token that YOU were supposed to get. [/quote] Actually, the opposite is true - it IS indeed something that our spouses are supposed to get, if we truly believe that it is God's plan that people wait until marriage to have sex. Edited November 17, 2012 by Norseman82
Gabriela Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353134875' post='2511729'] I think that was the point curiousing was actually trying to get across and was actually giving an example of the pain and misery that premarital sex causes. [/quote] Precisely. Thank you!
Anastasia13 Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='Freedom' timestamp='1353109605' post='2511493']If that is too hard for you remain celibate, don't drag a man and potential children into your confusion, it's unfair to him and to the kids.[/quote]1 Corinthians 7: [sup]8 [/sup]But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. [sup]9 [/sup]But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.
Basilisa Marie Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353135388' post='2511734'] Actually, the opposite is true - it IS indeed something that our spouses are supposed to get, if we truly believe that it is God's plan that people wait until marriage to have sex. [/quote] No, it's not, because Virginity isn't a magical token. Focusing on some physical state of being reduces a person to that state of being, and ignores virtue. Furthermore, we don't have any real definition of what a virgin is anymore, so that state of being has become virtually worthless. There IS no real definition of virginity, so how can we use that as the measure of what we give our spouse? Chastity, on the other hand, is something we can offer our spouse, and is what our future spouses are supposed to get. Although I think the idea of "purity" can be problematic too, I think it's a better descriptive of the ideal, of what we're supposed to offer our spouse. Purity denotes a single-mindedness, a complete and full dedication to your spouse (or to God). Virginity is a physical state of being, Purity deals with your will, and Chastity is virtue. Purity, I think, might work better in your "something I'm supposed to get" argument, but even then it's problematic because people are flawed, are prone to temptation and sin, and it's not fair. Plus, think about it this way: What if we did consider virginity some magic token meant for you, from your future spouse? So what happens when you meet your future spouse, and find that they've made a mistake and give your special token to someone else? I would feel hurt and resentful. I might even wonder what the point of saving my magic token for my spouse was, if I wasn't going to get one in return. I'd wonder if I should break up with my future spouse, because they haven't been as faithful to our future marriage covenant as I have. But how does this mindset foster forgiveness? How does it promote the virtue of chastity? If we instead looked at the issue from the position that chastity is what we give our spouse, it puts both people on an even playing field. It doesn't really matter what each has done in the past, although "saving oneself" for one's future spouse is a beautiful expression of chastity. It also means that both spouses will continue to grow in chastity, and in love for one another. Furthermore, focusing on virginity instead of chastity casts sex in a negative light. Sex in a marriage is a beautiful expression of the couple's marriage vows - which is why we go so far as to call it the marital act. Chastity preserves sex in its rightful place, as an ultimate expression of love and fidelity. Sex is an expression of chastity. With the virginity mindset, sex is just something that you're not supposed to do until you're married. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the perfect example. Mary was completely and totally devoted to God in all things, body, mind, will, spirit - everything. Thus, the descriptor "virgin" is most aptly applied to her, because she was absolutely purely devoted to God. How many of us Christians can say the same thing about our devotion to our spouses, or future spouses? We can't. TLDR: Spouses don't "get" anything. They're called to fidelity and love and chastity. Virginity is just an incidental result of practicing chastity, but losing one's virginity (whatever that actually means) [i]doesn't [/i]mean that one [i]can't[/i] become more chaste in the future, or even that one wasn't chaste (in the case of sexual assault). It's not helpful to think of virginity first, if we're talking about the lives of Christians. Edited November 17, 2012 by Basilisa Marie
KnightofChrist Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 Virginity isn't magical, it is holy and it is more than just a physical state. " Because you all know that every little girl that is born, is born with a seal, so to speak, protecting the mystery of her femininity, which is the womb. There is a seal and if you understand, a seal always indicates something which is sacred. The seal, which doesn’t exist in the male body, is profoundly symbolic and says this belongs to God in a special way. This is a sphere which is so beautiful and so profound that it cannot be touched upon, except with God’s permission, in a Catholic marriage. When a girl or young woman is permitted to give the keys of this mysterious domain, this closed garden, to her husband-to-be, she says: "Up until now I have kept this garden virginal, now God has given me the keys and is allowing me to give them to you and I know that you will penetrate into it, with trembling reverence and gratitude". The moment that a woman is embraced by her husband and a few hours afterwards she conceives, in this very moment, something absolutely amazing happens which once again illuminates the greatness of femininity. Neither husband nor wife can create a human soul. God alone can. Of course there is the male seed and there is the female egg. These are material realities that God has put into the bodies and when they are united, an amazing thing happens. God creates a new human soul, totally new, which never existed before. Where? In the mystery of the female body. This is where the soul is conceived. It has nothing to do with the husband. The husband is out of the game at this point and the very moment that God creates a soul he implies that there is a special contact between God and the female body, so to speak, touching it in creating it. Once again, what an extraordinary privilege." -- Alice von Hildebrand
tinytherese Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 By saying that you're willing to marry a non-virgin doesn't mean that you don't consider premarital sex a sin or that you don't see it as a very serious sin. I cannot help but think that there are people reading this thread who are no longer virgins that feel less than worthy of love. They think that they are dirty and damaged goods. Because of their past, people see them as not good enough to have a happy fulfilling marriage. Yes, what they did was wrong, but does that mean that it's too late for them. If we keep telling them such messages, why would they be motivated to stop their behavior? Our God is merciful and Christ gave us the sacrament of confession to help us turn our lives around. There have been numerous saints who were previously less than pure as the driven snow--St. Augustine, St. Margaret of Cortuna, and St. Mary of Egypt, just to name a few. There have also been many saints who greatly sinned in other ways. St. Paul wanted to arrest and put to death everyone who claimed to be a Christian. Even Our Lord's own disciples committed horrible sins--St. Peter denied that he even knew Jesus three times, and this was that man that he chose to be the very first pope. Yet each one of them felt genuine sorrow for their sins and trusted in the Lord's mercy to forgive them. But He did more than forgive them, He transformed them into great saints.
Maggyie Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 I don't know. I find that paragraph about little girls and their seals pretty creepy. I'm sad that it's from Alice von Hildebrand. The hymen is just a bit of extra tissue, a membrane, and many women are born without one. It's also not exactly a perfect seal since after all women start menstruating at age 13 and the blood comes through the hymen. It's not so much a seal as it is a screen door. She seems to make virginity a bigger issue for women than for men ("it doesn't exist in the male body."). It is equally important for both. Then again it's important to not diminish the importance physical virginity has in the Church. It's true Mary is "virginial" in the sense of giving everything to God, but at the same time she is also physically a perpetual virgin and being physically set apart from being a sexual partner with men is important for understanding her role.
the171 Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1353163335' post='2511788'] This thread is far too sexy. [/quote] I'll just leave now before I cause a sexy overload.
KnightofChrist Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1353185228' post='2511947'] I don't know. I find that paragraph about little girls and their seals pretty creepy. [/quote] That comment was both unneeded and disrespectful.
Maggyie Posted November 17, 2012 Posted November 17, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353185603' post='2511949'] That comment was both unneeded and disrespectful. [/quote] How so? It just seems creepy to me. I'm sure she didn't mean to be. But it is... creepy. Humans aren't the only mammal where the females typically have hymens. Female cats, elephants, rats, and seals all have hymens. Is this God's way of saying the female rat's virginity is sacred? Nah. It's membranous tissue. I get what she's trying to say but unfortunately the symbolic meaning of reproductive organs has its limits.
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