Basilisa Marie Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Excuse me, I did NOT use the term "used cars." I'd rather not compare a person to any object, car, bell, whatever, thank you very much. [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353273644' post='2512440'] And how many men rationalize their pre-marital sex by thinking that since they are not going to marry a virgin they might as well not be virgins themselves? [/quote] Last time I checked, the Church doesn't assert that women are the ones responsible for morality in a relationship, nor that women are completely responsible for a man's sin. What you're saying here is no better than Adam pointing the finger at Eve, instead of taking responsibility for his own sin. [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353273644' post='2512440'] Maybe you need to take a deep breath, grow a thicker skin, and stop playing the "wounded victim" card. [/quote] Right, let's all write off her opinion because it makes us have to re-evaluate how we go about expressing ours. Have you stopped to wonder if maybe she sounds like she's playing a victim card to you because what you're saying actually IS hurtful? Maybe if we took two seconds to listen to what she's saying, more people who say the things you say would realize that focusing on virginity as an exclusive measure of worth is incredibly harmful and DOESN'T foster growth in virtue. The point is, if we put most of our focus on how wonderful virginity is, our message only resonates with people who haven't had sex before marriage. If we focus instead of chastity (or even spiritual virginity, as Nihil discussed earlier), it leaves the door open for those who have fallen in the past. Because the reality is, people who have had premarital sex are NOT less worthy of love, less worthy of honor, less worthy of dignity than those who have "saved" themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I figured this was going to happen, if Norseman got involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Whenever a guy knows I'm a virgin, they try to romance the pantaloons off of me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1353185603' post='2511949'] That comment was both unneeded and disrespectful. [/quote] Sorry but it was very valid and needed to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 And really, come on guys...if someone has premarital sex and goes to confession for it, who are we to hold that sin above their heads the rest of their life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353273644' post='2512440'] And how many men rationalize their pre-marital sex by thinking that since they are not going to marry a virgin they might as well not be virgins themselves? Maybe you need to take a deep breath, grow a thicker skin, and stop playing the "wounded victim" card. [/quote] Man to man, I can tell you right now: You're being a jerk. Time to stop. When a young woman asks you to stop you don't EVER tell her she needs to get thicker skin. You're a man. Stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353273644' post='2512440']Maybe you need to take a deep breath, grow a thicker skin, and stop playing the "wounded victim" card. [/quote] Did you stop and think for a moment that maybe that comparison is actually hurtful? Did you stop to think that making that comparison is objectifying and denigrating. I am not "playing the wounded victim card". It is genuinely offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353275748' post='2512455'] And really, come on guys...if someone has premarital sex and goes to confession for it, who are we to hold that sin above their heads the rest of their life? [/quote] Once it's confessed, it's forgotten and we do our best not to do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353274938' post='2512448'] Excuse me, I did NOT use the term "used cars." I'd rather not compare a person to any object, car, bell, whatever, thank you very much. [/quote] My bad, I thought I saw someone else use the term. [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353274938' post='2512448'] Last time I checked, the Church doesn't assert that women are the ones responsible for morality in a relationship, nor that women are completely responsible for a man's sin. What you're saying here is no better than Adam pointing the finger at Eve, instead of taking responsibility for his own sin. [/quote] Then why doesn't Emily Ann take resposibility for her own sin instead of blaming others in the Church for pushing people away and making it so hard to come back like she was saying in post 55? [quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1353191354' post='2511993'] For a long time I thought all those things. I felt I wasn't worthy of love. I thought I was damaged goods. I thought no-one could ever want me as anything more than a sexual object. And a big part of that was the attitude that comes from other Catholics, and I can see it here. Someone said to me once that I couldn't get married now. Another person compared people who have has pre-marital sex to "used cars". I knew they were wrong, but you have no idea how much that hurt. That attitude was more objectifying that anything else I have ever experienced. [b]And it was that attitude that made it that much harder to turn back.[/b] Yes, I have made mistakes. But how many of you are sinless? Why should I be judged based solely on one mistake of my past? We seem to accept the repentance of all except those who have had pre-marital sex. The messages that comes from Catholics does not encourage one to re-embrace a life of chastity. [b]It pushes people away[/b], which is shameful. [/quote] What's good for the males is good for the females as well. [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353274938' post='2512448'] Right, let's all write off her opinion because it makes us have to re-evaluate how we go about expressing ours. Have you stopped to wonder if maybe she sounds like she's playing a victim card to you because what you're saying actually IS hurtful? Maybe if we took two seconds to listen to what she's saying, more people who say the things you say would realize that focusing on virginity as an exclusive measure of worth is incredibly harmful and DOESN'T foster growth in virtue. The point is, if we put most of our focus on how wonderful virginity is, our message only resonates with people who haven't had sex before marriage. If we focus instead of chastity (or even spiritual virginity, as Nihil discussed earlier), it leaves the door open for those who have fallen in the past. Because the reality is, people who have had premarital sex are NOT less worthy of love, less worthy of honor, less worthy of dignity than those who have "saved" themselves. [/quote] And you know what? The lessening of the importance of virginity is a slap in the face to the efforts of those who have worked long and hard to save themselves. And as I stated before, I did not say that those who have not saved themselves are not worthy of love - just that there are some who don't view them as compatible. But there are plenty more who are compatible, so I don't see why all the whining. Edited November 18, 2012 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353187755' post='2511968'] I'm still stuck on the idea of [i]virginity[/i] having the further meaning. Are we defining virginity as not having sexual intercourse? Or any sexual activity? I only ask because I have a hard time equating complete abstinence from all sexual activity and "everything but the deed." Because technically, "everything but the deed" doesn't violate the "sacred garden" the way von Hildebrand describes it. So yeah. Maybe my issue is that virginity is so arbitrarily defined today, that I think it's more helpful to focus on chastity. And that Virginity works as a helpful descriptor in Mary's case because she was perfectly chaste, perfectly pure and uniquely devoted to God. But to me it seems to be less helpful when talking about people who aren't Mary. [/quote] Jesus said that if you look at a person with lust you have committed adultery. Pretty well all of us have done that at some time except for Knight of Christ. The gist I'm getting from people that virginity is not as important as ones overall moral attitude seems to be the right one. BTW I don't have sufficient props for the honesty and openness from many on this thread and the many wise posts. I salute you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1353062423' post='2511184'] Having moderated here for years, I can say with confidence-- it will be. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353276272' post='2512463'] And you know what? The lessening of the importance of virginity is a slap in the face to the efforts of those who have worked long and hard to save themselves. [/quote] That's nice. It's also a strawman argument. Nobody is saying that here. You on the other hand are offering a lovely slap in the face for those who aren't virgins. I don't care how valuable virginity is, you don't treat your fellow human beings that way, especially the ones who have repented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353276272' post='2512463'] Then why doesn't Emily Ann take resposibility for her own sin instead of blaming others in the Church for pushing people away and making it so hard to come back like she was saying in post 55? [/quote] Who said I haven't taken responsibility for it? Who are you to judge me? I am no worse a sinner than you. People who have had pre-marital sex get judging and condemnation. That is hardly the attitude we should take. It's a disgraceful lack of compassion. [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1353276272' post='2512463'] What's good for the males is good for the females as well. [/quote] I don't get your point. Just because I am a woman does not make what I am saying gender-specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1353181993' post='2511917'] No, it's not, because Virginity isn't a magical token. Focusing on some physical state of being reduces a person to that state of being, and ignores virtue. Furthermore, we don't have any real definition of what a virgin is anymore, so that state of being has become virtually worthless. There IS no real definition of virginity, so how can we use that as the measure of what we give our spouse? Chastity, on the other hand, is something we can offer our spouse, and is what our future spouses are supposed to get. Although I think the idea of "purity" can be problematic too, I think it's a better descriptive of the ideal, of what we're supposed to offer our spouse. Purity denotes a single-mindedness, a complete and full dedication to your spouse (or to God). Virginity is a physical state of being, Purity deals with your will, and Chastity is virtue. Purity, I think, might work better in your "something I'm supposed to get" argument, but even then it's problematic because people are flawed, are prone to temptation and sin, and it's not fair. Plus, think about it this way: What if we did consider virginity some magic token meant for you, from your future spouse? So what happens when you meet your future spouse, and find that they've made a mistake and give your special token to someone else? I would feel hurt and resentful. I might even wonder what the point of saving my magic token for my spouse was, if I wasn't going to get one in return. I'd wonder if I should break up with my future spouse, because they haven't been as faithful to our future marriage covenant as I have. But how does this mindset foster forgiveness? How does it promote the virtue of chastity? If we instead looked at the issue from the position that chastity is what we give our spouse, it puts both people on an even playing field. It doesn't really matter what each has done in the past, although "saving oneself" for one's future spouse is a beautiful expression of chastity. It also means that both spouses will continue to grow in chastity, and in love for one another. Furthermore, focusing on virginity instead of chastity casts sex in a negative light. Sex in a marriage is a beautiful expression of the couple's marriage vows - which is why we go so far as to call it the marital act. Chastity preserves sex in its rightful place, as an ultimate expression of love and fidelity. Sex is an expression of chastity. With the virginity mindset, sex is just something that you're not supposed to do until you're married. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the perfect example. Mary was completely and totally devoted to God in all things, body, mind, will, spirit - everything. Thus, the descriptor "virgin" is most aptly applied to her, because she was absolutely purely devoted to God. How many of us Christians can say the same thing about our devotion to our spouses, or future spouses? We can't. TLDR: Spouses don't "get" anything. They're called to fidelity and love and chastity. Virginity is just an incidental result of practicing chastity, but losing one's virginity (whatever that actually means) [i]doesn't [/i]mean that one [i]can't[/i] become more chaste in the future, or even that one wasn't chaste (in the case of sexual assault). It's not helpful to think of virginity first, if we're talking about the lives of Christians. [/quote] Are you implying that it is not God's plan that two people should save themselves for each other? It may not be a "magical" token, but it certainly is something that God has indicated should be given by spouses to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Can we close this thread? People are really being hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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