Do You Wear A Veil Or Headcovering In Church?

[Catholicterp7]

It's just not quite a fair argument, because there's plenty of "scriptural" stuff that we don't do. Keeping kosher for instance. But even in I Corinthians 11:4-6 (which I assume is your authority for women covering their hair) it says "if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil." It was disgraceful at the time of writing for a woman's hair to be cut or shaven -- it's not anymore. Women have all sorts of short hairstyles and it's perfectly normal and acceptable. So from the perspective of "it's biblical" I don't think you have a very strong argument, because the context of the passage places it within the boundaries of acceptable cultural practices.

 

I don't veil regularly at Masses in the Ordinary Form; I do for the Extraordinary Form. I think the argument for veiling is stronger from the standpoint of tradition than from the standpoint of scripture. It's a little-t tradition and there's nothing wrong with it, but as it's not mentioned in the canon law which is currently in force I think it's hard to make an argument that it's compulsory. If it's a devotion you find helpful, that's wonderful. Not everyone will, though, and it doesn't mean they're wrong. It took me a good while to figure out that not every devotion or practice which is helpful to me is equally helpful to everyone else. I drove my friends crazy insisting they read this book or pray that chaplet, when in the end their prayer life was none of my business.

I think you missed my point. Like I said before I don't think it says anything about your heart one way or the other. I know many holy women who don't cover. I'm really just perplexed by it. This explains it a bit better than I did. 

 

But the rule that men are not allowed to wear headgear in church is not in Canon Law either, yet it is widely accepted, and while nobody would ever dare to speak to a Lady who is not veiled in church, many people will correct a man who wears a headgear in Church. Yet both traditions go back to the same passage in Paul's letter, and both were universally practiced in the entire church, both East and West, since times apostolic until the middle of the 20th century.
The Canon Law argument is very legalistic IMO, and IMO it should never have been there in the first place. It was not a written law until 1917, and still everyone accepted it. You don't have rules like "you shouldn't wear a bikini in church" in Canon Law either.

Again, this is not to criticize anyone (almost nobody I know wears a headgear), I just don't understand it, especially why men and women are treated so differently regarding this question.

It was tradition for a lot longer than it's been accepted do not do it and in the early nineteen hundreds it wasn't a cultural norm to cover your head anymore but Catholic women still did it because it's tradition.

 

JMJ+ :heart: 

[somethingfishy]

I think you missed my point. Like I said before I don't think it says anything about your heart one way or the other. I know many holy women who don't cover. I'm really just perplexed by it. This explains it a bit better than I did. 

 

It was tradition for a lot longer than it's been accepted do not do it and in the early nineteen hundreds it wasn't a cultural norm to cover your head anymore but Catholic women still did it because it's tradition.

 

JMJ+ :heart:

 

Which is fine. Catholic women can emulate that tradition if they so choose. But they are not required to -- it's an option, neither forbidden nor compulsory.

[Antigonos]

Actually, the headcovering issue goes back much farther than the New Testament.  Traditionally Jewish women have covered their hair after marriage [the idea being that hair is sexy, and something only a husband should have the option of being turned on by], and even today, in Western societies where an Orthodox Jewish woman does not want to stand out, many use the option of wearing a wig to cover one's own hair [there are jokes about this: is a woman who wears a wig AND a hat more religious than one just wearing a hat, etc. on the lines of "insecurity" and wearing both a belt and suspenders, as opposed to just a belt]  Today, apart from the ultra- and modern Orthodox, most married Jewish women only wear something on their heads in the synagogue. I personally usually wear a scarf.

 

OTOH, uncovering the head by males in the presence of majesty is also a very longstanding custom.  Doffing one's hat, or even just making the gesture of touching the hat brim, to either a woman [which symbolically indicates respect for a "superior"] or to a social superior has been a custom until very recently.  Only the king kept his hat on all the time, and since God is the greatest king of all, it became traditional for men to be "uncovered" in church.

 

I wasn't aware how much the custom for Christian women to wear either a hat or some form of head covering in church had lapsed.  Certainly, in my childhood, it was universal.  Was this something that changed with V2?

[domenica_therese]

Added to that, I realized that women are required to wear veils in the Vatican. If we veil at the Vatican in the presence of the Pope, why not veil at regular Mass in the presence of God? 

 

What do you mean by "women are required to wear veils in the Vatican"? That's certainly not the case for Mass inside St. Peter's Basilica -- I've been thrice, and also twice in the square, without a head-covering -- though you do have to receive communion on the tongue, and not in the hand. There are also restrictions on other clothing (such as skirt length and shoulders); but there are no requirements for veils. 

 

Or do you mean in the actual papal palace if you were to be invited to come meet the pope on a more personal basis?

Edited February 5, 2013 by domenica_therese

[Mary Catherine Eddyblouin]

I started veiling about six years ago after I went to my first TLM with my brother and sister-in-law. I'm a history buff and I love old traditions of all sorts so when I learned the history of veiling I was fascinated and started veiling simply because of tradition.Then I read the scripture from 1st Corinthians and was very convicted. 

My sophomore year of high school, five years ago, I started wondering about veiling during personal prayer at home and when I'm sitting with a friend praying for her etc. but it seemed so weird to wait and grab my mantilla before starting to pray so I kind of had an inkling of maybe veiling full time but didn't think any Catholics did that. The other thing for me was that I really don't want to wear anything that looks like a religious sister's veil because I'm not a sister yet and for some reason that's really important to me that people don't take me for a sister by what I wear.

I continued to ignore this prompting until my senior year when over Christmas break I found a group of Catholics who veil full time. That was it for me, I started veiling full time. Last year I took a little bit of a break because I realized that it had lost it's meaning for me and I was only doing it because I felt like people expected me to by that point so for about a semester and a half I took a break which was so much needed. Now I'm back to covering any time I'm out of the house/have people over to the house. 

JMJ+ :heart:

Tell me more about these Catholic who veil all the time! I have felt called to veil full time for a while but, like you, I didn't want to because I'm not a sister yet. 

[abrideofChrist]

Tell me more about these Catholic who veil all the time! I have felt called to veil full time for a while but, like you, I didn't want to because I'm not a sister yet. 

 

Those women are sort of like Catholic Amish.  Interestingly enough, one of the first converts to Catholicism of our native born nuns in America was a Puritan.  I was fascinated to read how she had difficulties in adjusting to her new clothes because she had been trained from birth that other types of clothes were prideful and sinful.  She went from puritanical dress to the height of fashion since her adopted family was the wealthiest in Montreal. Catholicism is such a beautiful religion since we allow women to show their hair, wear pretty colors, handbags, and shoes.  Allow is not the word.  Perhaps it is She rejoices in its virtuous women who virtuously blend in society whether by having simple clothes and headgear for women living near/in Amish communities or fashionable clothes sans headgear elsewhere in the USA.  I say USA because other cultures obviously do have their own ways of dressing. 
 

[Catholicterp7]

Tell me more about these Catholic who veil all the time! I have felt called to veil full time for a while but, like you, I didn't want to because I'm not a sister yet. 

It was a combination of this facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/VeiledCatholicWomen/?fref=ts and a thread on CAF, which as an aside I haven't visited in a long time, that convinced me to actually do it. If you want to talk about it/need encouragement shoot me a PM. :) 

 

Those women are sort of like Catholic Amish.  Interestingly enough, one of the first converts to Catholicism of our native born nuns in America was a Puritan.  I was fascinated to read how she had difficulties in adjusting to her new clothes because she had been trained from birth that other types of clothes were prideful and sinful.  She went from puritanical dress to the height of fashion since her adopted family was the wealthiest in Montreal. Catholicism is such a beautiful religion since we allow women to show their hair, wear pretty colors, handbags, and shoes.  Allow is not the word.  Perhaps it is She rejoices in its virtuous women who virtuously blend in society whether by having simple clothes and headgear for women living near/in Amish communities or fashionable clothes sans headgear elsewhere in the USA.  I say USA because other cultures obviously do have their own ways of dressing. 
 

I know you didn't mean for this to be offensive but all of the Catholic women I know, myself included, who cover full time wear normal stylish clothes and just happen to add something to cover the hair. We aren't like the Amish at all. The only reason I wear skirts all the time is because I'm just flat out more comfortable in a skirt than pants. I love bright colors and patterns in my wardrobe and like to wear things that are in style (to a point, clearly everything that's in style right now isn't modest). I don't know where people get the idea that all people who cover all the time for religious reasons are like the Amish or wear clothes that are so different from what other people wear. I'm really interested in hearing what has caused that image. 

JMJ+ :heart: 

[Catholicterp7]

I just read again what I posted above and realized that it, in print, could come off as being defensive or combative but I really don't mean it in that way at all! I'm really just curious to hear other peoples points of view and why this image seems to be so wide spread. 

JMJ+ :heart:  

[ChristinaTherese]

Well, CT, there are Plain Catholics. I don't know too much about them though, and don't think that they're really like the Amish too much either. So, that probably doesn't help answer your question.

[Spem in alium]

I wore a headscarf once during the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. I felt comfortable, mainly because I knew most of the people there from weekly Mass and knew they wouldn't be critical. I would probably veil more if I had the chance - religious fervour and its acceptance is not strong around here (particularly with youth) and I know it would probably make me uneasy.
 

[beatitude]

Actually, the headcovering issue goes back much farther than the New Testament.  Traditionally Jewish women have covered their hair after marriage [the idea being that hair is sexy, and something only a husband should have the option of being turned on by], and even today, in Western societies where an Orthodox Jewish woman does not want to stand out, many use the option of wearing a wig to cover one's own hair [there are jokes about this: is a woman who wears a wig AND a hat more religious than one just wearing a hat, etc. on the lines of "insecurity" and wearing both a belt and suspenders, as opposed to just a belt]  Today, apart from the ultra- and modern Orthodox, most married Jewish women only wear something on their heads in the synagogue. I personally usually wear a scarf.

 

Walking around certain areas of Jerusalem, I sometimes see women wearing what is obviously a sheitel and then a hat or a scarf on top of the sheitel! I've always wondered about the rationale for this, but none of my friends has been able to answer satisfactorily - just a vague, "Oh, they think it's more tzniut," which doesn't really answer the 'why' part. What's the reason?

Edited February 7, 2013 by beatitude

[savvy]

 

Veils are deeply symbolic, so they are worn by nuns or married or single women who are part of third orders as a sign of their consecration at Mass.  So, I would have to agree with abrideofChrist here, I do think that randomly wearing it might make it less significant and the question is why, when you do not have too.

 

 

 

 

[Catholicterp7]

 

Veils are deeply symbolic, so they are worn by nuns or married or single women who are part of third orders as a sign of their consecration at Mass.  So, I would have to agree with abrideofChrist here, I do think that randomly wearing it might make it less significant and the question is why, when you do not have too.

Because for those of us who do it's not a random choice. We as the Church are called to be His bride and consecrated ourselves to Him as such (understand, I mean that in a very different sense then the consecration of a Religious Sister or Consecrated Virgin). It's not a matter of having to wear it or not, for me it's a matter of following St. Paul's teachings and the traditions of the Church for thousands of years. 

JMJ+ :heart: 

[kg94]

I wore a headscarf once during the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament. I felt comfortable, mainly because I knew most of the people there from weekly Mass and knew they wouldn't be critical. I would probably veil more if I had the chance - religious fervour and its acceptance is not strong around here (particularly with youth) and I know it would probably make me uneasy.
 

 

 

I'm only 18, yet I veil pretty much full time and the only time I don't is if I am at work, in which case, it may not be totally appropriate as I work in retail. I am very keen on modesty and am involved in a lot of service in the Church, such that I am there 10-12 times a week. I always veil and have been called to since I was quite young. I have had those desires in my heart for a long time, and for the last three years, or possibly slightly longer, I have been veiling. I don't think it's right to say we are like the Amish, or that it is not common among the youth. I work a lot with the youth in Church, and people of all ages, including those who are in the confirmation class around 15 yrs old have been asking me and our youth co-ordinator about veiling. I think we should bring it back. I will say more about veiling later on as I need to get back to work.

GBY all and prayers as always,

Kim :)

[beatitude]

It has never been a Catholic custom to veil full-time, so how can we 'bring it back'? There's nothing to bring back. A tradition of women veiling their heads to pray? Yes, sure. Veiling their heads to go out grocery shopping? No, not unless there is a tabernacle lurking somewhere behind the tinned sardine cans.

 

I worry when young people start to focus this much on veils (i.e. visible signs of being special and 'different'). I did it myself, when I was about nineteen or twenty, and it was due to an immature preoccupation with externals that faded as I grew in my prayer life. The giving of a veil during a religious profession is a very profound moment, and the novice will have learned the symbolism of what she is receiving and why. This isn't the case for most laywomen and it simply isn't meant for us.

[kg94]

It has never been a Catholic custom to veil full-time, so how can we 'bring it back'? There's nothing to bring back. A tradition of women veiling their heads to pray? Yes, sure. Veiling their heads to go out grocery shopping? No, not unless there is a tabernacle lurking somewhere behind the tinned sardine cans.

 

I worry when young people start to focus this much on veils (i.e. visible signs of being special and 'different'). I did it myself, when I was about nineteen or twenty, and it was due to an immature preoccupation with externals that faded as I grew in my prayer life. The giving of a veil during a religious profession is a very profound moment, and the novice will have learned the symbolism of what she is receiving and why. This isn't the case for most laywomen and it simply isn't meant for us.

 

 

I wasn't trying to say that it was a Catholic custom to veil full-time. Seeing as I grew up with Religious and work with them and spend a lot of time with them, not to mention the discussions I have with them and my SD, I do know the significance of wearing a veil and it isn't just a custom or tradition to me. I would also like to comment on the fact that you mentioned women wearing veils while praying, well, you might be interested to know that if you consecrate your life to God and always strive to live in union with Jesus, then by keeping intentions in your heart, you can become a living holocaust, a living prayer for those intentions you know and don't know. Many who you do not know will benefit from your prayer. Think about it. Your whole life could be a prayer, in everything you think, do and say, for the glory of God, it could be a prayer for all your brothers and sisters in Christ. I veil almost full time b/c it's a calling I've had since young and have discerned very carefully for several years before I actually started veiling. I know not everyone does discern that, but I certainly did, as with other things I have always very carefully discerned, and am discerning. As for bringing back veiling, I said that to mean that more people should be more aware of the true significance of women wearing veils, not just think they are trying to act 'holier than thou' or that they are subservient to men, or anything of the like.

I don't think you can really say what is "meant" for anyone, lest you fall into means of casting useless judgements. Bear in mind that you should keep both eyes focused on God, not one on God and one on your neighbour. If someone wears a veil, they will have their own reasons for doing so, and it is up to them to discern whether that is "for them" or not. After all, everything you think, do and say is between you and God, and no one else. You shouldn't think that people don't understand the significance, and be careful not to generalise, especially with young people - I can tell you that I am a young person myself and am known to have a profound, and spiritually deep understanding many different aspects of the faith and don't take lightly to issues surrounding the faith. Those are not the words of myself, but rather of others who have told me so.

Have a blessed Lenten season (Ash Weds is tomorrow, for those of you who let that date slip out of your minds...)

Prayers and Blessings as always.

[LadyOfSorrows]

I'm a big fan of this video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK3A23yVGAg

 

I also like her really profound explanation about why one may veil during the Mass. I've been praying about veiling at Mass and Adoration for about a year now but finally decided to jump into it during this season of Lent. One of the reasons I held off on veiling is because I do feel like it's kind of odd to do so with a group that doesn't particularly do it...I guess there was this sense of pride and not really wanting to be "looked at," but truly felt like it would be fruitful for me personally. When I attended orthodox synagogue as a youngin' we were always told to wear something on our head (often I would forget and would be forced to pin a paper napkin onto my hair). :) I was going to start with the EF form and adoration only as a way to avoid sticking out but rather blend in and not be noticed, but after further prayer I realized that the Mass is still the Mass and we're still engaging in that intimate joining and communion with God even in the Novus Ordo...

 

But still to try and blend in I bought a sheer black one instead of white or ivory (it blends in with my hair better....)

[Zippy]

Interesting that someone said in Europe people don't veil. This isn't actually true - In England a minority veil for usual mass but I'd say about two thirds veil for an NV mass in Latin or the EF. It maybe higher in cathedrals and parishes that tend to attract, or have a reputation, for traditional customs. But I've never seen any disharmony against those women who don't, some of whom are very devout in all other respects. I do notice though that veiling is more usual in bigger towns and metropolitan cities, compared to the country or sleepy areas. Maybe its because we are used to seeing loads of Muslim women, across generations, wearing the veil. I know its seen as fairly normative in big cities and it often poses the embarrassing questions of why Catholics dropped the practice. In church aspects seen as sacred are veiled i.e tabernacle and altar.

Sometimes, it often seems to go, that those in hard agreement with the trends, social or otherwise, between the late 50's and early 80's tend to have retired to these suburb places and are maybe less happy to see such customs brought to life. I went to school/church growing up with a generation bored stiff and cynical of priests, and polyester nuns, influenced heavily in liberal liturgy, and other similar ideas. I still have awkward memories of 'shine Jesus shine'. :saint2:  Turned many off for life but I think those who stayed wanted to change things and make a big difference. Maybe that's why there's some back pushing, as some call it, to reclaim aspects that were taken from our collective past.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Zippy

[loveletslive]

Always to the power of always. At the conference I went to last year, one of the speakers talked about the Mass. She said that the Mass, the communion rite especially, is a wedding. If Mass is a wedding and we all are brides, why shouldn't we veil? Added to that, I realized that women are required to wear veils in the Vatican. If we veil at the Vatican in the presence of the Pope, why not veil at regular Mass in the presence of God? 

 

Plus, it's just good practice for my nunhood. :nun:

 

false. not required to wear a chapel veil in St. Peter's/the Vatican. I took my chapel veil to Rome but never even ended up wearing it because no one (okay maybe a few women had chapel veils, but i see more women veiling at my home parish) was wearing a veil. I went to a papal Mass - few veils!

 

i lived in Europe in college and traveled to eleven countries and saw fewer women wearing chapel veils at churches in Europe than I've seen in the us!

[sisleap]

Because, I am frequently interrupted while praying, I am considering to wear a scarf head covering when praying in the church. This would be an outward sign I am praying and should not be disturbed. Equate to Hermits wearing a cowl. 'Nough said so I wont rant.